Preseason GT: Bulls VS Cavs Rematch (and post game thread)

[Michael Jackson]

wait till coby goes for 40 his first night back. but realistically he going to find a way to get more minutes then alot of people think. i like what i see so far this preseason but coby is the only player who's played with zach for at least 2 years on the roster. hes a vet now. a very young vet. i think he's slightly getting slept on just a tad bit. he's going to be out there with the starters at portions of the game. i dont see him just coming off the bench and like some entitled player. if its pace where playing then he has to be out there. his quickness and shooting is exactly what we need. he always has a knack for getting up shots when the defense is thinking nobody will take them and thats pretty much how he either loses or wins many games for the team last year. but i think its ok this year because who is he defering to in the 2nd unit. hes going to piss off alot of fans or make us happy

If the FO and coaching were so high on him they wouldn't have expended so much money signing a starter pg and a very good backup in Caruso.And what's exactly wrong with Coby returning from shoulder surgery helping the 2nd unit as a scoring threat coming off the bench?

Agreed I don’t think they are super high on him and likely want to use him as trade bait, that being said he isn’t as bad as the general consensus is on him either. His skill set is very usable in the right situation, I think how he adapts will tell a lot. In some ways he should be better suited for his role and he very well may shine not being the PG. there is room for a scorer on the second unit for sure and he can bum slay and be part of an aggressive defensive second unit, if not the most disciplined defensive squad. In this scenario he just needs to truly be good at man defense if the bulls have improved the PnR defense.

I am a big AC, was before he was a Bull but Hits ceiling is still higher than his at this point. AC’s skill set is more needed on this team though and that is why I believe Coby is absolutely trade bait. Plus AK doesn’t seem to want any GarPax guys and LaVine doesn’t count because GarPax wanted Wiggins not him (my own biased caveat lol)

[madvillian]

White's path to minutes starts with improving his defense. He's not going to be asked to play PG I'd imagine so he sure as **** better be able to focus more on staying in front of his man. I'm highly doubtful he can contribute much this year given he missed the entire offseason but maybe the game will start to slow down a bit for him in his 3rd year. Even when he's playing well he loses focus too easily and gets sped up. Part of that was probably being thrust into the primary ball handler role at times but part of that is just typical young player inconsistency.

Can he find more steadiness with a reduced role and more experience? I hope so, but I'm not banking on it. He looks like another mediocre GarPax 1st rounder right now.

[FriedRise]

Coby's role will be vastly simplified this year: shoot. If you watch how Matt Thomas has been playing in the preseason, that's essentially Coby's role, down to the bad defense. He should still do the right thing when on the court - like pass when somebody is open - but his focus should be to shoot and less so about making plays for others. They have other guys much better in that role like Caruso, DeMar, and Lonzo for that.

If even with a reduced role that Coby still struggles (like continually missing open shots), chances are high that he'll be traded mid-season. He just simply does not fit the criteria of guys that AKME prefers (tall/long wings who can defend). But it still says something that they didn't move him this offseason. The main reason was probably because he was injured and couldn't be moved, but he still has upside given his age and he CAN be an elite shooter, even though he hasn't been consistent about it.

[TheFinishSniper]

Seems like Coby has gone from underrated to really underrated. Yes, I said that correctly. Yup, he is not starting PG material who can be team main playmaker. That's clear after two years in league. But I think he can be fine secondary creator on court in most of opportunities. And he is better catch and shoot guy. But just like Zach not many opportunites for that.

Main issue with Coby is his defense. With his shooting percentages he cant simply slack on defense. It's not even effort it's more inability to predict, fight and slide through screens to contest. It's technique. And with injury he had now (shoulder) I am not sure it will improve, but if it doesnt then he aint playing much. But that's on him. This is his 3rd year. Bulls already send a message (Lauri) they arent willing to sign people on extension if they dont prove they belong on a team. And we clearly aint in position for resigning future bench players.

I will also argue that his shooting percentages are results off being forced along with Zach leading offense and being really only two people on roster capable doing it (till Vuc). Either way he definitely has a role off bench for Bulls. And I definitely think he deserves benefit of the doubt with more talented roster. On both sides of the floor.

[sco]

Seems like Coby has gone from underrated to really underrated. Yes, I said that correctly. Yup, he is not starting PG material who can be team main playmaker. That's clear after two years in league. But I think he can be fine secondary creator on court in most of opportunities. And he is better catch and shoot guy. But just like Zach not many opportunites for that.

Main issue with Coby is his defense. With his shooting percentages he cant simply slack on defense. It's not even effort it's more inability to predict, fight and slide through screens to contest. It's technique. And with injury he had now (shoulder) I am not sure it will improve, but if it doesnt then he aint playing much. But that's on him. This is his 3rd year. Bulls already send a message (Lauri) they arent willing to sign people on extension if they dont prove they belong on a team. And we clearly aint in position for resigning future bench players.

I will also argue that his shooting percentages are results off being forced along with Zach leading offense and being really only two people on roster capable doing it (till Vuc). Either way he definitely has a role off bench for Bulls. And I definitely think he deserves benefit of the doubt with more talented roster. On both sides of the floor.

I agree that I would expect his shooting %'s to improve in a pure SG role. And look, I think Billy was right to try him at PG last season...it was the main role he was drafted for.

That said, unless he's really good in this role, I'm still on board to trade him. I just think middling, off the bench scorers are abundant and can he had for vet min $.

[TheFinishSniper]

Seems like Coby has gone from underrated to really underrated. Yes, I said that correctly. Yup, he is not starting PG material who can be team main playmaker. That's clear after two years in league. But I think he can be fine secondary creator on court in most of opportunities. And he is better catch and shoot guy. But just like Zach not many opportunites for that.

Main issue with Coby is his defense. With his shooting percentages he cant simply slack on defense. It's not even effort it's more inability to predict, fight and slide through screens to contest. It's technique. And with injury he had now (shoulder) I am not sure it will improve, but if it doesnt then he aint playing much. But that's on him. This is his 3rd year. Bulls already send a message (Lauri) they arent willing to sign people on extension if they dont prove they belong on a team. And we clearly aint in position for resigning future bench players.

I will also argue that his shooting percentages are results off being forced along with Zach leading offense and being really only two people on roster capable doing it (till Vuc). Either way he definitely has a role off bench for Bulls. And I definitely think he deserves benefit of the doubt with more talented roster. On both sides of the floor.

I agree that I would expect his shooting %'s to improve in a pure SG role. And look, I think Billy was right to try him at PG last season...it was the main role he was drafted for.

That said, unless he's really good in this role, I'm still on board to trade him. I just think middling, off the bench scorers are abundant and can he had for vet min $.

Oh, dont get me wrong. I am more than fine to see him traded. I just think this is 3rd crucial year for him. He really need to establish himself to be more than gunner off bench if he wants a deal with Bulls. That defense needs to improve or that offense from him needs drastic improvement. Either way AKME needs to see this through practice till mid deadline.

[bad knees]

I agree that Coby has an important role to play as Lavine's backup. We need his shooting on this team. Those who are saying otherwise apparently believe, among other things, that Lavine and DDR are both going to play 82 games this season. When one of them goes down (or God forbid, both of them go down), the Bulls are going to be in desperate need of a guard/wing who can create his own offense either in iso or PnR. Coby is the only guy on the roster who can fill that role, unless you are ready to hand that role to Ayo (and that would be foolish given's Ayo's inexperience).

Coby also has a golden opportunity to learn how to play defense this year from his new teammates. If I were him, I would spend an hour each day talking/working with AC about all the things that AC does to make the defense better. This video is a great example. I especially love the tweet/video embedded in this thread in which Caruso does six things in about five seconds of play to thwart a Cavs fast break.

Read on Twitter

[sco]

I agree that Coby has an important role to play as Lavine's backup. We need his shooting on this team. Those who are saying otherwise apparently believe, among other things, that Lavine and DDR are both going to play 82 games this season. When one of them goes down (or God forbid, both of them go down), the Bulls are going to be in desperate need of a guard/wing who can create his own offense either in iso or PnR. Coby is the only guy on the roster who can fill that role, unless you are ready to hand that role to Ayo (and that would be foolish given's Ayo's inexperience).

Coby also has a golden opportunity to learn how to play defense this year from his new teammates. If I were him, I would spend an hour each day talking/working with AC about all the things that AC does to make the defense better. This video is a great example. I especially love the tweet/video embedded in this thread in which Caruso does six things in about five seconds of play to thwart a Cavs fast break.

Read on Twitter

IMO, the best defenders in the league are often late draft guys or undrafted guys who come into the league needing a differentiator to stick, like AC, Butler, Nwaba, etc. I think, in general, highly drafted guys rarely see the defensive effort as "worth it", but would be thrilled if Coby is the exception.

[drosestruts]

I agree that Coby has an important role to play as Lavine's backup. We need his shooting on this team. Those who are saying otherwise apparently believe, among other things, that Lavine and DDR are both going to play 82 games this season. When one of them goes down (or God forbid, both of them go down), the Bulls are going to be in desperate need of a guard/wing who can create his own offense either in iso or PnR. Coby is the only guy on the roster who can fill that role, unless you are ready to hand that role to Ayo (and that would be foolish given's Ayo's inexperience).

Coby also has a golden opportunity to learn how to play defense this year from his new teammates. If I were him, I would spend an hour each day talking/working with AC about all the things that AC does to make the defense better. This video is a great example. I especially love the tweet/video embedded in this thread in which Caruso does six things in about five seconds of play to thwart a Cavs fast break.

Read on Twitter

IMO, the best defenders in the league are often late draft guys or undrafted guys who come into the league needing a differentiator to stick, like AC, Butler, Nwaba, etc. I think, in general, highly drafted guys rarely see the defensive effort as "worth it", but would be thrilled if Coby is the exception.

I'm not sure that's true - I think late-round guys tend to be more specialists in general, whether that's defense, shooting, etc. And when you only do one thing it stands out more, but these guys aren't anywhere near the defenders of like Simmons or Embiid.

Davion Mitchell just went 6th overall and his biggest strength is probably defense right now. He's just also good at other stuff so he got drafted high.

[GoBlue72391]

Coby's role will be vastly simplified this year: shoot. If you watch how Matt Thomas has been playing in the preseason, that's essentially Coby's role, down to the bad defense. He should still do the right thing when on the court - like pass when somebody is open - but his focus should be to shoot and less so about making plays for others. They have other guys much better in that role like Caruso, DeMar, and Lonzo for that.

If even with a reduced role that Coby still struggles (like continually missing open shots), chances are high that he'll be traded mid-season. He just simply does not fit the criteria of guys that AKME prefers (tall/long wings who can defend). But it still says something that they didn't move him this offseason. The main reason was probably because he was injured and couldn't be moved, but he still has upside given his age and he CAN be an elite shooter, even though he hasn't been consistent about it.

It seems like most of Matt Thomas' looks have been coming off screens, though, and he just seems like a superior shooter. Is Coby capable or comfortable doing that? From my memory, we haven't really seen Coby do much of that, as most of his threes were either self-created off the dribble or standstill catch and shoot attempts. I could just be misremembering, though.

Either way, with our ball movement and good passing I don't see the need for Coby to shoot a ton of off the dribble iso shots like he has in the past which could limit his already likely limited role even further. IIRC he's only been a 36% 3-point shooter on catch and shoot opportunities which is solid but nothing special.

[MrSparkle]

Coby's role will be vastly simplified this year: shoot. If you watch how Matt Thomas has been playing in the preseason, that's essentially Coby's role, down to the bad defense. He should still do the right thing when on the court - like pass when somebody is open - but his focus should be to shoot and less so about making plays for others. They have other guys much better in that role like Caruso, DeMar, and Lonzo for that.

If even with a reduced role that Coby still struggles (like continually missing open shots), chances are high that he'll be traded mid-season. He just simply does not fit the criteria of guys that AKME prefers (tall/long wings who can defend). But it still says something that they didn't move him this offseason. The main reason was probably because he was injured and couldn't be moved, but he still has upside given his age and he CAN be an elite shooter, even though he hasn't been consistent about it.

It seems like most of Matt Thomas' looks have been coming off screens, though, and he just seems like a superior shooter. Is Coby capable or comfortable doing that? From my memory, we haven't really seen Coby do much of that, as most of his threes were either self-created off the dribble or standstill catch and shoot attempts. I could just be misremembering, though.

Either way, with our ball movement and good passing I don't see the need for Coby to shoot a ton of off the dribble iso shots like he has in the past which could limit his already likely limited role even further. IIRC he's only been a 36% 3-point shooter on catch and shoot opportunities which is solid but nothing special.

That Thomas fella can really shoot. I agree that Coby has shown little of that sort. He's shown shooting talent, but it's been streaky confidence (if he's on, he can make a contested step-back 3P as easily as the open catch-and-shoot). Otherwise he's averaged that paltry 36% from 3P. Thomas seems like a guaranteed catch-and-shoot sniper. Wonder if they keep him and try to work him into the deep rotation.

[ghostinthepost1]

Seems like Coby has gone from underrated to really underrated. Yes, I said that correctly. Yup, he is not starting PG material who can be team main playmaker. That's clear after two years in league. But I think he can be fine secondary creator on court in most of opportunities. And he is better catch and shoot guy. But just like Zach not many opportunites for that.

Demonstrably not true.

Last year Coby shot
163/454 on all three point attempts, a rate of 35.9%
121/333 on catch-and-shoot attempts, a rate of 36.3%
42/121 on off the dribble attempts, a rate of 34.7%

So yea, like 79% of his 3s last year were already catch and shoot and he hit them at about league average. Don't know where the perception he's like JJ Reddick on catch and shoot shots came from.

[TheFinishSniper]

Seems like Coby has gone from underrated to really underrated. Yes, I said that correctly. Yup, he is not starting PG material who can be team main playmaker. That's clear after two years in league. But I think he can be fine secondary creator on court in most of opportunities. And he is better catch and shoot guy. But just like Zach not many opportunites for that.

Demonstrably not true.

Last year Coby shot
163/454 on all three point attempts, a rate of 35.9%
121/333 on catch-and-shoot attempts, a rate of 36.3%
42/121 on off the dribble attempts, a rate of 34.7%

So yea, like 79% of his 3s last year were already catch and shoot and he hit them at about league average. Don't know where the perception he's like JJ Reddick on catch and shoot shots came from.

Not sure but i distinctively remember prior draft that was the case with him as shooting prospect and just recently somewhere last year during season. This is how he likely finished season. But I decided to google it a bit and found this article

https://www.blogabull.com/2021/2/11/22278605/coby-white-is-a-guard-who-can-shoot-except-when-he-dribbles-so-maybe-he-should-play-shooting-guard



This is quiet telling. He is not JJ Reddick and nobody said he is, given even with that he is barely NBA average. But that's something on which can continue to work on.

[kodo]

As stated above, Coby's value isn't as a C& specialist like Korver. Coby shoots about 35% in almost any situation, that's his strength. There are guys who may be 50% on C&S but are disasters when having to move or dribble and it averages out to 35%. Coby being 35% in any situation is an advantage. This means he can dribble into his shot, catch and then side step and shoot, dribble 1 step in, etc.. A pure C&S guy is going to always be severely limited in volume, like Redick or Korver. Coby White scored 101 points in 3 games a season ago. His value is in volume, not super high efficiency / low volume.

Less Korver, more Jordan Clarkson. Clarkson shoots the 3 at 34%, and is the 2nd leading scorer on the best regular season team in the league. That kind of player has value even with non-impressive 3P percentages.

I think the big "if" on Coby is when will he get there. Clarkson is in his 8th season. We're looking to win now. And also if Coby as a 4th guard is more valuable than trading him for a starting PF.

[bad knees]

Does anyone know why different teams have a different number of preseason games? For example, we have four, the Warriors have five, and the Lakers have six. Seems odd.

[Rowland Garrett]

Why do people keep mentioning getting a PF? I mean if BD, AK, and ME all get fired, yea I can see it. Like it or not, these guys have what they want at PF.

If you want a PF, you must be loooonging for new management I guess.

Yea, yea, I kid....sort of.

[samwana]

Ayo closed it out but a few possessions before the end Dotson got that oreb and hit for 3. That was a huge play.

that may be his first three he ever hit for the bulls right?

RealGM mobile app

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

Does anyone know why different teams have a different number of preseason games? For example, we have four, the Warriors have five, and the Lakers have six. Seems odd.

I was just thinking the same thing. Surprised Lebron hasn't complained about it yet.

[TheFinishSniper]

Does anyone know why different teams have a different number of preseason games? For example, we have four, the Warriors have five, and the Lakers have six. Seems odd.

I was just thinking the same thing. Surprised Lebron hasn't complained about it yet.

My guess is some teams prefer playing games over practice. I am pretty sure Lebron team doesnt practice near as much as Celtics do. Which had basically two games. Part of it is because of age. As there is no need for practice for Lakers. They are experienced team who's majority of team knows all actions and run plays. Most NBA teams runs same play book and their players have 10+ experience in league.

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

Does anyone know why different teams have a different number of preseason games? For example, we have four, the Warriors have five, and the Lakers have six. Seems odd.

I was just thinking the same thing. Surprised Lebron hasn't complained about it yet.

My guess is some teams prefer playing games over practice. I am pretty sure Lebron team doesnt practice near as much as Celtics do. Which had basically two games. Part of it is because of age. As there is no need for practice for Lakers. They are experienced team who's majority of team knows all actions and run plays. Most NBA teams runs same play book and their players have 10+ experience in league.

Oh Lebron's waiting until him or AD get injured. Then he'll point out the Lakers being scheduled more games in the preseason.