With the 4th Pick, the Raptors select Scottie Barnes! Part 2

[Basketball_Jones]

Yeah he doesn’t force bad shots, that’s a positive. But he doesn’t know how to break down a defender in front of him, either in transition or half court. Right now he’s kind of just trying to go through them, resulting in close misses. But yeah, expecting the total package here is unrealistic. He needs experience and expensive trainers, hopefully all to come offseason. Right now the focus is on his jump shot.

[Madhouse]

Yeah he doesn’t force bad shots, that’s a positive. But he doesn’t know how to break down a defender in front of him, either in transition or half court. Right now he’s kind of just trying to go through them, resulting in close misses. But yeah, expecting the total package here is unrealistic. He needs experience and expensive trainers, hopefully all to come offseason. Right now the focus is on his jump shot.

Hopefully OG and Barnes train together next offseason with his trainer.

[Dalek]

This is all nonsense. Ask any smart GM and they will all tell you the same thing.

There is only one approach to take, particularly in the lottery. You always draft best player available - meaning the one you think will be best in 3 or so years.

Things such as risk and potential are all calculated as part of this assessment of BPA.

Yes, risk and potential are of course part of the evaluation for BPA and this model just gives an indication of how risky a particular pick is and how likely that pick would be drafted by a team based on where the team is at developmentally.

It isn't a revolutionary concept really. The high lottery teams typically draft the SWING picks because they are desperate to get a star player or find an identity. Houston, OKC, Detroit, Cleveland all are weak teams because they have moved on from established players who set the culture and playstyle.

Toronto had a weird injury-filled Tampa season that led to them being in the SWING range of prospects. I think they selected Scottie in part because he is a high floor and potentially high ceiling player. At worst you end up with HYBRID guy that is going to be a very good role player on your playoff rotation - think Marvin Williams or Robert Covington as his floor while his ceiling is like a Draymond/Ben Simmons.

Honestly, they could have swung for fences with the better athlete in Jonathan Kuminga, but his poor understanding of the game makes him more of a SWING pick because wings without a good IQ can bust in the lottery (see Stanley Johnson, Justice Winslow).

A SWING guy like Jalen Suggs is considered that because he isn't ready to be a primary PG, he can't just step in and play his role, but he does have some star potential. He also has a bit of bust potential if he doesn't improve his handle or shot.

[anotherhomer]

Yeah he doesn’t force bad shots, that’s a positive. But he doesn’t know how to break down a defender in front of him, either in transition or half court. Right now he’s kind of just trying to go through them, resulting in close misses. But yeah, expecting the total package here is unrealistic. He needs experience and expensive trainers, hopefully all to come offseason. Right now the focus is on his jump shot.

That's why raps still want Ben Simmons, albeit at a certain price

Ben is Scotties but bigger, more athletic and more importantly, better ball handler

[Dalek]

Yeah he doesn’t force bad shots, that’s a positive. But he doesn’t know how to break down a defender in front of him, either in transition or half court. Right now he’s kind of just trying to go through them, resulting in close misses. But yeah, expecting the total package here is unrealistic. He needs experience and expensive trainers, hopefully all to come offseason. Right now the focus is on his jump shot.

For a playoff potential team you want your rookie to defend hard and not make too many turnovers on offense. He has been great at finding open guys and even mixing in the odd risky pass when he throws his no-looks or full court passes. You can tell he is focused on team success.

Regarding development, for him to attack the paint he will need a lot of work on his handle. He has a high dribble and tends to use his offhand to push defenders away. He is going to get called for fouls or turn the ball over if he pressured even a bit. He needs that trainer Demar worked with or even the guy Yuta worked with more recently.

Regarding the jumpshot, you can see how he is bringing it to mid-range the past couple games and that works for him. That is going to be big for him in year one. From the elbows or slightly higher he can either pull-up for a semi-reliable jumper or make a pass to a cutter or swing to the corner. I think for year one that should be the core of his offense: one-two dribble pull-up jumper or acting as an offensive hub in the high-post like Jokic.

[Madhouse]

Yeah he doesn’t force bad shots, that’s a positive. But he doesn’t know how to break down a defender in front of him, either in transition or half court. Right now he’s kind of just trying to go through them, resulting in close misses. But yeah, expecting the total package here is unrealistic. He needs experience and expensive trainers, hopefully all to come offseason. Right now the focus is on his jump shot.

That's why raps still want Ben Simmons, albeit at a certain price

Ben is Scotties but bigger, more athletic and more importantly, better ball handler

Would be most excited about the defensive potential but having 2 players with great court vision would be great.

[brownbobcat]

I'm getting more of a rookie Lamar Odom vibe from him.


L.Odom: 16.6pts (44%/35%/71%) 7.8rb, 4.5ast, 1.2st, 1.5bk.


Lamar in this era of position less basketball and this amount of spacing would of easily been a top 15 player.

If his upside is Lamar Odom, that’s a wasted pick.

At 4, you should be drafting an impact player.

Lamar Odom was a 4th overall pick.

People's expectations are WAY too high. Now I think Barnes is going to be a star in this league but I highly recommend people go through every draft from the past 15 years. How many top 5 picks ended up being as good as Lamar Odom?

People think hall of fame players grow on trees around here.

If Odom didn't have character issues, he would've been drafted #1. Even in a re-draft of a very strong class, he easily goes top-10.

[Madhouse]

If his upside is Lamar Odom, that’s a wasted pick.

At 4, you should be drafting an impact player.

Lamar Odom was a 4th overall pick.

People's expectations are WAY too high. Now I think Barnes is going to be a star in this league but I highly recommend people go through every draft from the past 15 years. How many top 5 picks ended up being as good as Lamar Odom?

People think hall of fame players grow on trees around here.

If Odom didn't have character issues, he would've been drafted #1. Even in a re-draft of a very strong class, he easily goes top-10.

In his prime he was really good. Top 7 player from his draft still.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odomla01.html#2000-2008-sum:per_game

[God Squad]

Kuzma spoke on Barnes to Sports Illustrated . Sorry if posted.

On Tuesday night, that love for the game jumped out at Washington Wizards forward Kyle Kuzma who praised Barnes for the way he carries himself.

"I think the No. 1 thing that stands out with him is I just love that he has a certain type of passion for the game. You can tell he kind of loves it," Kuzma said. "He's very enthusiastic. He's out there screaming and trying to guard the best player."

Against Washington, that meant Barnes was on Bradley Beal's case. While Beal certainly wasn't giving it his all in the final preseason game, Barnes certainly stuck around to pester him, holding one of the league's most explosive scorers to a pitiful 1-for-11 shooting night.

"He's guarded some really good players. He spent so a lot of time on Tatum in Boston the other night and obviously Beal tonight. I think it's important," Raptors coach Nick Nurse said. "We're trying to rep a lot of these things out just to see what it looks like and then see how flexible and versatile a defender he is and he looked pretty good."

To Kuzma, the fact that Barnes is willing to take on that challenge as a rookie no matter who is standing in front of him speaks volumes.

"That just tells you he's a guy who's very, very hungry, that loves the game of basketball and wants to be great," Kuzma said. "Especially as a rookie, being young, it's very impressive to see."

https://www.si.com/nba/raptors/news/toronto-raptors-kyle-kuzma-praises-scottie-barnes

[God Squad]

Honestly he deserves all the love he's getting, I'm very happy for this young man. He's as advertised and I have little doubt he's going to continue to surprise people. His jumper will come along, we'll just have to be patient with him.

[mdenny]

Yeah he doesn’t force bad shots, that’s a positive. But he doesn’t know how to break down a defender in front of him, either in transition or half court. Right now he’s kind of just trying to go through them, resulting in close misses. But yeah, expecting the total package here is unrealistic. He needs experience and expensive trainers, hopefully all to come offseason. Right now the focus is on his jump shot.

That's why raps still want Ben Simmons, albeit at a certain price

Ben is Scotties but bigger, more athletic and more importantly, better ball handler

Partly true.....but they couldn't be more different character-wise. And that can be the most important factor.

Even though Scottie has had good defensive results on elite opponents....a couple ppl have mentioned that he doesn't seem anchored on the perimeter. Looks like a stutter step can get his feet a half inch off the ground and when that happens he becomes vulnerable for blow-bys.

[Darkseid]

Scottie Barnes is the reason why I wake up in the morning

[Jcity08]

Honestly he deserves all the love he's getting, I'm very happy for this young man. He's as advertised and I have little doubt he's going to continue to surprise people. His jumper will come along, we'll just have to be patient with him.

That hunger and love for the game is exactly whats going to help him improve into a top player in the league.

[Clay Davis]

Yeah he doesn’t force bad shots, that’s a positive. But he doesn’t know how to break down a defender in front of him, either in transition or half court. Right now he’s kind of just trying to go through them, resulting in close misses. But yeah, expecting the total package here is unrealistic. He needs experience and expensive trainers, hopefully all to come offseason. Right now the focus is on his jump shot.

That's why raps still want Ben Simmons, albeit at a certain price

Ben is Scotties but bigger, more athletic and more importantly, better ball handler

Partly true.....but they couldn't be more different character-wise. And that can be the most important factor.

Even though Scottie has had good defensive results on elite opponents....a couple ppl have mentioned that he doesn't seem anchored on the perimeter. Looks like a stutter step can get his feet a half inch off the ground and when that happens he becomes vulnerable for blow-bys.

A lot of elite wing defenders regularly get beat off the dribble. Kawhi for instance was pretty slow footed even in his prime. However, he never gave up on the play.

It's really hard to /not/ get beat off the dribble in the NBA. Even the best defenders will get a half a step or even full step disadvantage against someone with a good first step. Defense doesn't end with the blow-by, though. Thybulle for instance has gotten to be a pretty illustrious defender from his ability to play passing lanes and poke from the periphery of the offensive player's awareness

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[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

I've been really happy with Scottie's pre-season. There will be times that there's a miss, but I must say I really now admire that Masai has the courage and confidence to ignore consensus and put his neck out. I tend to feel like Raps really liked Kawhi in his draft year, and Masai would have had the courage to take him, at 5 despite what the ranks were saying. And it would have been overall the right call, at the end of the day. They also hit on guys no one really see's. Like take Siakam we had a 9th pick and a 27th. we had guys we brought in to look at for 9 still on the board when they took Pascal at 27. They know something there that people were missing, and I bet they knew Pascal all along that Pascal was the real prize - in that case, they recognized the disparity in how they valued Pascal vs the field and were able to navigate it. It's an approach that will get you a few Bruno's but it's better than just following mock and on-line consensus. Anyone could do that. We have a front office that can see value on their own and the courage to act on it. Most teams don't.

[Madhouse]

Yeah he doesn’t force bad shots, that’s a positive. But he doesn’t know how to break down a defender in front of him, either in transition or half court. Right now he’s kind of just trying to go through them, resulting in close misses. But yeah, expecting the total package here is unrealistic. He needs experience and expensive trainers, hopefully all to come offseason. Right now the focus is on his jump shot.

That's why raps still want Ben Simmons, albeit at a certain price

Ben is Scotties but bigger, more athletic and more importantly, better ball handler

Partly true.....but they couldn't be more different character-wise. And that can be the most important factor.

Even though Scottie has had good defensive results on elite opponents....a couple ppl have mentioned that he doesn't seem anchored on the perimeter. Looks like a stutter step can get his feet a half inch off the ground and when that happens he becomes vulnerable for blow-bys.

He is a bipolar player at this stage in my opinion, meaning strengths and weaknesses are in the same parts of his game. He is a great passer and has great vision but not a great handle. You can blow by him on the perimeter and he is not an elite post defender but he can still make life miserable on defense for you based on length and insticts. He can't shoot the 3 but is improving his jump shot and floater. He can drive to the basket and finish but is not drawing enough fouls. He does have qualities in all those areas already though so it should be easier to refine those skills.

[PoundTown]

I've been really happy with Scottie's pre-season. There will be times that there's a miss, but I must say I really now admire that Masai has the courage and confidence to ignore consensus and put his neck out. I tend to feel like Raps really liked Kawhi in his draft year, and Masai would have had the courage to take him, at 5 despite what the ranks were saying. And it would have been overall the right call, at the end of the day. They also hit on guys no one really see's. Like take Siakam we had a 9th pick and a 27th. we had guys we brought in to look at for 9 still on the board when they took Pascal at 27. They know something there that people were missing, and I bet they knew Pascal all along that Pascal was the real prize - in that case, they recognized the disparity in how they valued Pascal vs the field and were able to navigate it. It's an approach that will get you a few Bruno's but it's better than just following mock and on-line consensus. Anyone could do that. We have a front office that can see value on their own and the courage to act on it. Most teams don't.

Exactly, Masai and Co. have proven they can find fit/ glue players through free agency, undrafted players, trades, etc. They have also proven it's hard in Toronto to bring in high end unrestricted free agents from other teams. So, you gotta find those players that move the needle one way or the other, and you don't find them in the draft from playing it safe, taking the consensus, especially when those picks are in the 20s. Even though Bruno didn't pan out, does anyone now care that we didn't pick Rodney Hood? At the time they certainly did, but generally, those type of guys turn into Rodney Hood's; rotation players that don't move the needle for you. So, I am very much a proponent of the swing for the fences approach with guys that have untapped potential and good attitudes, that can develop into impact players over their rookie contract.

[brownbobcat]

He is a bipolar player at this stage in my opinion, meaning strengths and weaknesses are in the same parts of his game. He is a great passer and has great vision but not a great handle. You can blow by him on the perimeter and he is not an elite post defender but he can still make life miserable on defense for you based on length and insticts. He can't shoot the 3 but is improving his jump shot and floater. He can drive to the basket and finish but is not drawing enough fouls. He does have qualities in all those areas already though so it should be easier to refine those skills.

People are constantly forgetting that players are drafted not only based on what they are, but what they could be.

[Madhouse]

He is a bipolar player at this stage in my opinion, meaning strengths and weaknesses are in the same parts of his game. He is a great passer and has great vision but not a great handle. You can blow by him on the perimeter and he is not an elite post defender but he can still make life miserable on defense for you based on length and insticts. He can't shoot the 3 but is improving his jump shot and floater. He can drive to the basket and finish but is not drawing enough fouls. He does have qualities in all those areas already though so it should be easier to refine those skills.

People are constantly forgetting that players are drafted not only based on what they are, but what they could be.

agreed. He is already good and I think it's easier to improve areas where you also have strengths than completely revamp a part of your game. Like turning Ben Simmons into a jump shooter etc.

[brownbobcat]

agreed. He is already good and I think it's easier to improve areas where you also have strengths than completely revamp a part of your game. Like turning Ben Simmons into a jump shooter etc.

I mean, it's all relative. No one ever expected Simmons to turn into a Curry-level shooter, but he can't even get to a Westbrook/Rondo tier. It boggles the mind that he's a worse FT shooter than he was in college.