Tobias Harris Trade Thread

[Tomjas]

I love how the personal side of the game isn't even being considered here as if that hasn't been one of the main factors that has led us to our demise over the past 5 years.

Our plight has definitely been Tobias not shooting enough threes.

No the main factor was making short sighted moves (Harris was the worst one), asset mismanagement of the highest order, drafting one dimensional players and busts, and not actually getting the players that fit with Embiid (All Star level SG/PG would be required here/ high level backcourt).

It’s the same problems every year because we don’t actually address the problem head on.

If you said to me after 5 years we have Maxey and that’s it I’d say there’s no chance we cant be that bad at this surely, yet here we are and that is the exact position we are in now lol.

In fact there’s clear evidence with personal side of things that has been our downfall. (Ben, front office love fest for far too long, should have been traded years ago).

Old saying that you can hope for the best but always plan for the worst

Sixers only do the first part

[Negrodamus]

I love how the personal side of the game isn't even being considered here as if that hasn't been one of the main factors that has led us to our demise over the past 5 years.

Our plight has definitely been Tobias not shooting enough threes.

No the main factor was making short sighted moves (Harris was the worst one), asset mismanagement of the highest order, drafting one dimensional players and busts, and not actually getting the players that fit with Embiid (All Star level SG/PG would be required here/ high level backcourt).

It’s the same problems every year because we don’t actually address the problem head on.

If you said to me after 5 years we have Maxey and that’s it I’d say there’s no chance we cant be that bad at this surely, yet here we are and that is the exact position we are in now lol.

In fact there’s clear evidence with personal side of things that has been our downfall. (Ben, front office love fest for far too long, should have been traded years ago).

Yea, but I'm not talking about the past.

The bed is made. Trading him now will bring diminishing returns for a contending team. I don't think that's a hot take, but apparently it is.

[Tomjas]

I love how the personal side of the game isn't even being considered here as if that hasn't been one of the main factors that has led us to our demise over the past 5 years.

Our plight has definitely been Tobias not shooting enough threes.

No the main factor was making short sighted moves (Harris was the worst one), asset mismanagement of the highest order, drafting one dimensional players and busts, and not actually getting the players that fit with Embiid (All Star level SG/PG would be required here/ high level backcourt).

It’s the same problems every year because we don’t actually address the problem head on.

If you said to me after 5 years we have Maxey and that’s it I’d say there’s no chance we cant be that bad at this surely, yet here we are and that is the exact position we are in now lol.

In fact there’s clear evidence with personal side of things that has been our downfall. (Ben, front office love fest for far too long, should have been traded years ago).

Yea, but I'm not talking about the past.

The bed is made. Trading him now will bring diminishing returns for a contending team. I don't think that's a hot take, but apparently it is.

His value is not the hot take, it’s the other arguments being used to justify his retention

Tobias is a nice guy & a good player on a horrible contract who doesn’t fit next to Joel & Ben

IF we can get better a better fit than him then he should be moved and that’s irrespective of whether Ben stays or not

[Negrodamus]

No the main factor was making short sighted moves (Harris was the worst one), asset mismanagement of the highest order, drafting one dimensional players and busts, and not actually getting the players that fit with Embiid (All Star level SG/PG would be required here/ high level backcourt).

It’s the same problems every year because we don’t actually address the problem head on.

If you said to me after 5 years we have Maxey and that’s it I’d say there’s no chance we cant be that bad at this surely, yet here we are and that is the exact position we are in now lol.

In fact there’s clear evidence with personal side of things that has been our downfall. (Ben, front office love fest for far too long, should have been traded years ago).

Yea, but I'm not talking about the past.

The bed is made. Trading him now will bring diminishing returns for a contending team. I don't think that's a hot take, but apparently it is.

His value is not the hot take, it’s the other arguments being used to justify his retention

Tobias is a nice guy & a good player on a horrible contract who doesn’t fit next to Joel & Ben

IF we can get better a better fit than him then he should be moved and that’s irrespective of whether Ben stays or not

All of it is connected. If he were Kevin Love, then trade his ass for nothing. Since he's actually a good player (also, Tobi and Embiid were third best 2 player combo in point diff; Tobi and Ben, however were 8th) and a great locker room presence, not to mention continuity is one of the most important aspects of contending teams, it doesn't make sense to trade him.

We won't get a better fit. None of this matters because we're not going to trade him. The FO has no interest in doing so, which makes this a fool's errand to even discuss. We don't/didn't even want to trade Ben, who is arguably the worst offensively fitting player on this team, unless it was for Harden. That was for continuity reasons.

[Murray_17]

Unless he starts spamming 3's ala Robert Covington, Tobias STILL gotta go. Ben or no Ben.

If he isn't shooting over 5 three's per game (bare minimum) this year he needs to be gone. Realistically for him to be a positive influence considering his unimpressive defense and playmaking, he needs to be shooting 6-7 per game at a solid clip.

The 3.4 attempts per game he gave us this year and 3.6 attempts in the playoffs was the antithesis of Morey-ball and winning in general.

There are 11 PF's in the entire league that took over 5 3's per game last season, of those only 3 took 6 or more.

You're just setting yourself for dissapointment.

If we're lucky Tobias will increase to 4 or 4.5 attempts per game. And that's being super lucky.

[stormi]

Unless he starts spamming 3's ala Robert Covington, Tobias STILL gotta go. Ben or no Ben.

If he isn't shooting over 5 three's per game (bare minimum) this year he needs to be gone. Realistically for him to be a positive influence considering his unimpressive defense and playmaking, he needs to be shooting 6-7 per game at a solid clip.

The 3.4 attempts per game he gave us this year and 3.6 attempts in the playoffs was the antithesis of Morey-ball and winning in general.

There are 11 PF's in the entire league that took over 5 3's per game last season, of those only 3 took 6 or more.

You're just setting yourself for dissapointment.

If we're lucky Tobias will increase to 4 or 4.5 attempts per game. And that's being super lucky.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=FG3A*G*4.9&PlayerPosition=F

There were 49 players classified as forwards last season that shot at least 5 three's per game. A lot of them being contemporaries that this team would be more effective with in place of him.

Tobias just doesn't create offense quick enough for himself and that's his supposed calling card. His average distance per shot is only 11 feet. He's an inside bullyball forward, an archetype that's been rapidly going extinct.

He's only worth keeping around if he's able to modernize his game. How can he do this? Two ways I think. Either he turns into an offensive hub. A player that creates 3's via his off the dribble game OR via playmaking. But he doesn't have drive+kick in his arsenal because his vision is poor and he isn't a natural shot creator.

The other way would be simply shooting more 3's. And he's in position to every single night, but he doesn't, because he doesn't believe in his shot unless he's wide open and would prefer a one dribble pull-up into a long two or a sky-high floater. That's just bad basketball.

And it's not like the concerns surrounding Tobias Harris end there. Is he a good defender to y'all? He's been an underrated liability that's been attacked in every series loss he's participated in since arrival.

7'2 Joel Embiid battling gastroenteritis had to pick up Pascal Siakam after he dropped 30 on Tobias' head in game 1. He got blitzed and clamped by Brown/Tatum on both ends of the floor the following year, and then he got bullied by John Collins this year.

I still think Tobias Harris is a cool transitional piece for up an up & coming team, he's an awesome person and dope to have around for solidarity and off-court chemistry. But that doesn't win basketball games. He's our version of 2018 Toronto Raptors Demar Derozan or 2020 Bucks Eric Bledsoe, we need an upgrade like 2019 Kawhi Leonard or 2021 Jrue Holiday.

This team isn't close to a championship right now, there should be little push back on attempts to upgrade anyone not named Joel Embiid.

[DCasey91]

Harris will get more opportunity (it’s close because Ben is a great setup man) due to more space and open play which he likes.

With a 4 out offense he should be able to hit the quota of 5 3’s per game, it stands to reason if he does or doesn’t do it.

Storms Holiday has very nice point of differences (along with being more than Harris on the floor holistically).

Defensively it’s not close

Offensively he’s a capable assist/ballhandling man as shown, and he does have variance in his scoring but the min/max is higher.

I just think Harris isn’t good enough as a shooter/scorer in the end. And I don’t think he’s nuanced enough to be a third option. Gallo is way more in the wheelhouse to pair with Embiid.

He’s just not there effective wise with sub 24% usage or more or less 3rd option usage.

[the_process]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=FG3A*G*4.9&PlayerPosition=F

There were 49 players classified as forwards last season that shot at least 5 three's per game. A lot of them being contemporaries that this team would be more effective with in place of him.

Tobias just doesn't create offense quick enough for himself and that's his supposed calling card. His average distance per shot is only 11 feet. He's an inside bullyball forward, an archetype that's been rapidly going extinct.

He's only worth keeping around if he's able to modernize his game. How can he do this? Two ways I think. Either he turns into an offensive hub. A player that creates 3's via his off the dribble game OR via playmaking. But he doesn't have drive+kick in his arsenal because his vision is poor and he isn't a natural shot creator.

The other way would be simply shooting more 3's. And he's in position to every single night, but he doesn't, because he doesn't believe in his shot unless he's wide open and would prefer a one dribble pull-up into a long two or a sky-high floater. That's just bad basketball.

And it's not like the concerns surrounding Tobias Harris end there. Is he a good defender to y'all? He's been an underrated liability that's been attacked in every series loss he's participated in since arrival.

7'2 Joel Embiid battling gastroenteritis had to pick up Pascal Siakam after he dropped 30 on Tobias' head in game 1. He got blitzed and clamped by Brown/Tatum on both ends of the floor the following year, and then he got bullied by John Collins this year.

I still think Tobias Harris is a cool transitional piece for an up & coming team, he's an awesome person and dope to have around for solidarity and off-court chemistry. But that doesn't win basketball games. He's our version of 2018 Toronto Raptors Demar Derozan or 2020 Bucks Eric Bledsoe, we need an upgrade like 2019 Kawhi Leonard or 2021 Jrue Holiday.

This team isn't close to a championship right now, there should be little push back on attempts to upgrade anyone not named Joel Embiid.

This is the correct thinking on Tobias. It's unfathomable how anyone thinks Tobias' creation is something to be desired.

I will also translate the bolded text: he's a number one option on a lottery team.

[Kobblehead]

Peep Harris from 2017-2020. Exactly what we need. Just need to get him to shoot threes again.

[HotelVitale]

I still think Tobias Harris is a cool transitional piece for an up & coming team, he's an awesome person and dope to have around for solidarity and off-court chemistry. But that doesn't win basketball games. He's our version of 2018 Toronto Raptors Demar Derozan or 2020 Bucks Eric Bledsoe, we need an upgrade like 2019 Kawhi Leonard or 2021 Jrue Holiday.

This team isn't close to a championship right now, there should be little push back on attempts to upgrade anyone not named Joel Embiid.

This is the correct thinking on Tobias. It's unfathomable how anyone thinks Tobias' creation is something to be desired.

I will also translate the bolded text: he's a number one option on a lottery team.

You guys are talking like we have the option of upgrading to a 2019 Kawhi. We don't. And obviously if one of those guys became available then we'd all be happy to trade Tobias for him.

I really don't get what you guys think you're accomplishing by saying incredibly obvious things about Harris not be a superstar or whatever. No one thinks he is but trashing him doesn't get us anywhere. If we dumped Simmons and Harris for expirings this year we would have close to but not quite a max slot--but there are no real max players besides Lavine, who is likely to re-sign. Even if by some unlikely turn of events Lavine does sign with us, cool, that's still no better and probably worse than Simmons + Harris.

[SixthStreet]

If he wants to dribble the ball, he needs to get to the line or create assisted shots for others. He can't do either but continues to dribble excessively so his utility is limited offensively.

[stormi]

I really don't get what you guys think you're accomplishing by saying incredibly obvious things about Harris not be a superstar or whatever.

And I don't get what you're accomplishing entering my mentions to cape for mid?

I'm going to need more than:

a) He's a good teammate!!!!

and

b) B-but nobody wants this boat anchor and his awful contract!!!

To stop posting in this thread. As long as he's here and underwhelming and overpaid, fans are going to discuss ways to upgrade. You're just going to have to deal with it.

[Kolkmania]

It would be great if Harris had a quicker trigger, however he has never been that guy. The only reason we need him to bomb threes is that none of our other wings/guards do it.

Despite the low 3PA, he probably had his best season of his career last year? Despite that, his contract value is still a negative. Both things can be true at the same time.
I don't see a path towards upgrading Harris to be honest due to the massive contract and we need to sit on our draft assets for a Ben trade. So there aren't a lot of sweeters available.

[Arsenal]

If he isn't shooting over 5 three's per game (bare minimum) this year he needs to be gone. Realistically for him to be a positive influence considering his unimpressive defense and playmaking, he needs to be shooting 6-7 per game at a solid clip.

The 3.4 attempts per game he gave us this year and 3.6 attempts in the playoffs was the antithesis of Morey-ball and winning in general.

There are 11 PF's in the entire league that took over 5 3's per game last season, of those only 3 took 6 or more.

You're just setting yourself for dissapointment.

If we're lucky Tobias will increase to 4 or 4.5 attempts per game. And that's being super lucky.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=FG3A*G*4.9&PlayerPosition=F

There were 49 players classified as forwards last season that shot at least 5 three's per game. A lot of them being contemporaries that this team would be more effective with in place of him.

Tobias just doesn't create offense quick enough for himself and that's his supposed calling card. His average distance per shot is only 11 feet. He's an inside bullyball forward, an archetype that's been rapidly going extinct.

He's only worth keeping around if he's able to modernize his game. How can he do this? Two ways I think. Either he turns into an offensive hub. A player that creates 3's via his off the dribble game OR via playmaking. But he doesn't have drive+kick in his arsenal because his vision is poor and he isn't a natural shot creator.

The other way would be simply shooting more 3's. And he's in position to every single night, but he doesn't, because he doesn't believe in his shot unless he's wide open and would prefer a one dribble pull-up into a long two or a sky-high floater. That's just bad basketball.

And it's not like the concerns surrounding Tobias Harris end there. Is he a good defender to y'all? He's been an underrated liability that's been attacked in every series loss he's participated in since arrival.

7'2 Joel Embiid battling gastroenteritis had to pick up Pascal Siakam after he dropped 30 on Tobias' head in game 1. He got blitzed and clamped by Brown/Tatum on both ends of the floor the following year, and then he got bullied by John Collins this year.

I still think Tobias Harris is a cool transitional piece for up an up & coming team, he's an awesome person and dope to have around for solidarity and off-court chemistry. But that doesn't win basketball games. He's our version of 2018 Toronto Raptors Demar Derozan or 2020 Bucks Eric Bledsoe, we need an upgrade like 2019 Kawhi Leonard or 2021 Jrue Holiday.

This team isn't close to a championship right now, there should be little push back on attempts to upgrade anyone not named Joel Embiid.

Fantastic post that illustrates the issues with Tobias. You explained it better than I've ever seen.

[Negrodamus]

Peep Harris from 2017-2020. Exactly what we need. Just need to get him to shoot threes again.

Maybe he can return to that when we bring in an actual point guard that can shoot, score, and pass. Then we don't need to rely on a guy who's poorly qualified to be the offensive creator when the play falls apart like we have been with Tobias.

[mjkvol]

The problem is that most believe that Harris has to redefine himself to be really useful in this roster and mitigate to some extent that contract, and the reality is that is just something that isn't going to happen with a 30 year old veteran who is limited in the areas that could make him more valuable here - volume 3 pt. shooter, drive and kick capability, legit creator in big spots.

The other obvious problem is that there is no market to move him and get any sort of decent return, nor is there any seeming inclination in that regard from the Sixers, as he is such a rock in the clubhouse and community. That could change by next summer if this season is a disappointment, which at this point is looking like more than a possibility.

[Kobblehead]

Harris was scoring unassisted buckets and shooting threes during that window with the Clippers. He doesn't have to choose between the two. He just needs to go back to playing like he was during that stretch and he's an ultra valuable piece.

[DCasey91]

Gallo:
15.9ppg/11.3 FGA (that’s pretty fantastic efficiency)
Career 3PA 5.2
Career TS .592
Career 38.2% from 3 (4 seasons on 40%+ on more than league average volume even yonks ago).
FT% 87.6
FTA 5.8
.460 3PAR (46% of shots career taken from outside the three point line it’s a very very high number for his size).
.435 FTR

(For League Adjusted he’s well ahead as a bomber and as a shooter 49th this year positionally which has SF’s included in the list fwiw but 109th on playing time).

Essentially he shoots more 3’s (Harris has never had a .400 3PAR) and gets to the line more and has better shooting splits than Harris, and is one half the cost and is a better fit. Fit he was always the better offensive player. Elite for his size no questions about it.

Tobias is a good guy it’s just a horrible contract and not the correct player to put around Embiid.

[HotelVitale]

Gallo:
15.9ppg/11.3 FGA (that’s pretty fantastic efficiency)
Career 3PA 5.2
Career TS .592
Career 38.2% from 3 (4 seasons on 40%+ on more than league average volume even yonks ago).
FT% 87.6
FTA 5.8
.460 3PAR (46% of shots career taken from outside the three point line it’s a very very high number for his size).
.435 FTR

(For League Adjusted he’s well ahead as a bomber and as a shooter 49th this year positionally which has SF’s included in the list fwiw but 109th on playing time).

Essentially he shoots more 3’s (Harris has never had a .400 3PAR) and gets to the line more and has better shooting splits than Harris, and is one half the cost and is a better fit. Fit he was always the better offensive player. Elite for his size no questions about it.

Tobias is a good guy it’s just a horrible contract and not the correct player to put around Embiid.

This is pretty tiresome, guys. Gallo is also one of the most injury prone players in the league, he’s 33, sucks at defense and passing, and he moves like a mechanical crane these days. I’ve always thought he was under appreciated as a player but having him at $20m for another year or two doesn’t make us a better team than Tobias at $35m.

Also setting aside the obvious reasons why Gallos deal was cheaper, cool, you’ve found a player who would have been better value. Do you spend hours looking at Zillow and lamenting how someone 10 blocks from you got a better deal on their house? Or keep regretting how you bought your fridge at 25% above Amazon’s price because you really just wanted it installed and in place that weekend? The situation is imperfect but he’s been on the team for years now and there’s no simple way to improve or compelling upcoming decision about him for us to debate.

[DCasey91]

Gallo:
15.9ppg/11.3 FGA (that’s pretty fantastic efficiency)
Career 3PA 5.2
Career TS .592
Career 38.2% from 3 (4 seasons on 40%+ on more than league average volume even yonks ago).
FT% 87.6
FTA 5.8
.460 3PAR (46% of shots career taken from outside the three point line it’s a very very high number for his size).
.435 FTR

(For League Adjusted he’s well ahead as a bomber and as a shooter 49th this year positionally which has SF’s included in the list fwiw but 109th on playing time).

Essentially he shoots more 3’s (Harris has never had a .400 3PAR) and gets to the line more and has better shooting splits than Harris, and is one half the cost and is a better fit. Fit he was always the better offensive player. Elite for his size no questions about it.

Tobias is a good guy it’s just a horrible contract and not the correct player to put around Embiid.

This is pretty tiresome, guys. Gallo is also one of the most injury prone players in the league, he’s 33, sucks at defense and passing, and he moves like a mechanical crane these days. I’ve always thought he was under appreciated as a player but having him at $20m for another year or two doesn’t make us a better team than Tobias at $35m.

Also setting aside the obvious reasons why Gallos deal was cheaper, cool, you’ve found a player who would have been better value. Do you spend hours looking at Zillow and lamenting how someone 10 blocks from you got a better deal on their house? Or keep regretting how you bought your fridge at 25% above Amazon’s price because you really just wanted it installed and in place that weekend? The situation is imperfect but he’s been on the team for years now and there’s no simple way to improve or compelling upcoming decision about him for us to debate.

Not really I’m semi retired because of investing in property, it’s like your asking (my career is finance) a mechanic if his car is decent lol.

Embiid + Ben = 50+ wins
Embiid + Ben + Harris = 50+ wins

It was a bad investment then it’s a bad investment now.

1/3 of cap of thereabouts for zero return is bad asset management.

Addition by subtraction, Gallo is a very nice return on the deal back imo. (Better fit/better shooter/better FT man).

Your investing in Harris for offense which you shouldn’t for 40mil a year he’s actually to me worth less than Gallo because of the above point. He does offense better between the two.

If he had two way tangibility (still well overs) maybe there’s a case but it’s Tobias.

It’s like buying a boat to race on land it doesn’t work.