NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[michaelm]

Double

[michaelm]

Hard to make any comment on the data which has been provided, not that I am an epidemiologist anyway, with the “read on twitter” handle pretty much a guarantee of cherry picked data in any discussion involving Covid 19 vaccination. I will be interested to hear on what alternative basis mortality data can be looked at other than on a per population basis such as per 100,000 population however, although looking at the ascribed causes of death might be instructive.

There is however every reason imo to believe the pandemic could lead to excess mortality in the elderly from causes other than infection with the virus, or vaccination for that matter, a view I formed myself partly through experience many months ago. To start off with it has been more difficult to access health care for other conditions. Staying at home and not going out is very likely bad for health in general, with consequences such as loss of mobility as a result of which an increased hip fracture rate, a common cause of death in the elderly, would not be unexpected. I also heard an interesting piece, iirc from an epidemiologist or someone of that ilk, on National Public Radio months ago which jibed with my view. He posited that the increase in life expectancy in Western society was not down to advances in medical science alone, but also to the social support network that exists for the elderly, and that he expected increased mortality, which I would paraphrase as if you live for your grandchildren it is bad if you can’t see them. This is an argument against lockdowns and in favour of the level of sensible restrictions applied in Sweden imo though, and an argument for vaccination of the non elderly population rather than against it imo. Sweden is constantly cited by anti vaxxers but they have a vaccination rate of 70% odd as has been said.

To be logically inconsistent I did see a tweet I liked when looking at the local numbers today, asking what exactly the downside was to teachers who didn’t believe in science, nurses who didn’t believe in medicine, and police who didn’t believe in public safety resigning ?, my own view in regard to health workers at least.

[michaelm]

Elephant in the room.

https://rumble.com/vn3y22-tfnt9-cdc-and-fda-vaccine-committee-members-should-resign-for-failing-to-sp.html

Whats the relevant info here?

The same relevance info of anyone here.
Vaccine is nothing more than a deadly test.

The question remains. What data is there for deaths caused by the Pfizer vaccine which you all object to on the basis of it being an experimental mRNA vaccine, in particular compared to mortality and morbidity from actual Covid 19 infection. ?. The Astra Zeneca vaccine has definitely killed a few people due to VITTS in Australia (9 deaths from vaccine complications at a time 25 million doses had been administered in Australia according to our equivalent of the FDA) and there are definitely case reports of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which is similarly a viral vector vaccine doing so as well. I haven’t seen overall data on the latter vaccine but can look it up I guess.

[OkcSinceSGA]

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2021/10/3/22706769/former-atlanta-hawks-guard-brandon-goodwin-claims-covid-19-vaccine-ended-his-season

Was this ever shared on the forum? Brandon Goodwin blames J&J vaccine for ending his season due to blood clots and fatigue issues. Says he was perfectly fine prior to the shot, and his team said to keep it quiet

[michaelm]

I looked it up. 38 cases of vaccine induced thrombocytopenic thrombosis, 4 deaths, from the administration of 12.3 million doses of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine in the USA according to a case report in October of a death. Less than with the Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine which uses a replication inactivated chimpanzee adenovirus, rather than a human adenovirus as is the case with the J and J, for the viral vector; the reported incidence of VITTS is around 1 in 50,000 with the AZ vaccine.

Hard to be philosophical if you are an athlete who gets the rare syndrome, or are a relative and/or friend of someone who dies from it, but the incidence of both death obviously and thrombosis is much much higher from contracting the virus.

[slick_watts]

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2021/10/3/22706769/former-atlanta-hawks-guard-brandon-goodwin-claims-covid-19-vaccine-ended-his-season

Was this ever shared on the forum? Brandon Goodwin blames J&J vaccine for ending his season due to blood clots and fatigue issues. Says he was perfectly fine prior to the shot, and his team said to keep it quiet

he also just signed with the knicks. seems to me like recovering from blood clots and fatigue issues can be correlated with signing with the new york knicks.

[nikster]

Elephant in the room.

https://rumble.com/vn3y22-tfnt9-cdc-and-fda-vaccine-committee-members-should-resign-for-failing-to-sp.html

Whats the relevant info here?

The same relevance info of anyone here.
Vaccine is nothing more than a deadly test.

If you are going to post, make an effort to sound intelligible

How does this article support the view? What was the prediction he made based on vaerrs? What's the new data that seems to validate him? The Cdc needs to be fired even tho hey made recommendations more or less in line with every medical body in the world?

[Sgt Major]

Got my 3rd dose of Sputnik-V an hour ago, NBA teams with avax players sign me up to fill their spot!

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I am impressed I am impressed even if I think you're saying I am disingenuous.

No doubt I just gave a bunch of generalities and didn't really look at this specifically.

Since I have said a lot Now I will be brief here and say you're entitled to your opinion.... sincerely thank you for considering what I said even if you don't agree with it.

No problem man and I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid. I'm saying that if you look at the vaccines, specifically the mRNA ones, you'll see that any long-term effects would have to be noticeable soon, because the mRNA that's injected dissolves quickly, and the message it relays (create spike proteins so your body destroys them) tends to fade over time. The only long-term effects have to be borne of the myocarditis, and doctors have been very careful about people with heart disease and recommending the vaccine to them.

It sounds like you have very valid reasons to be wary of the government mandating anything medical, but the government doesnt include the vast majority of doctors, specifically virologists and epidemiologists, who are all agreeing with that and are proving it in studies - some completed and up for viewing, some in progress for longer term, but so far its all been safe.

I'm also saying that a lot of people come here, leading with "I'm vaccinated, but..." and then throw out a lot of misinformation. So its hard to tell who's being earnest about what they are saying and who's not. But the facts are this: you either have the great, great supermajority of virologists/epidemiologists lying to you in unison in the exact same way, or you have the sliver of other dissenters who all have their own ideas about whats safe, what's a cure, what's bad about the vaccine.

And don't just believe me. If you know an anti-vaxxer person, ask them specifically why. And if you find another, ask them too. Its very rare that they are going to say the same thing. I get this is a basketball forum, and we all have some very uneducated opinions about something some of the time, but when that transfer over to medical, in a way that is detrimental to public health, its just not the time to be contrarian for contrarian's sake. There are studies to look over (and there's a new site in development that is supposed to be Cliffs notes for studies soon) and I'm sure there will be people familiar enough with how to translate them from the super science-y bluster into something easier to digest

To further an intelligent discourse what we need to do is try to categorize each of the various anti-vaxxer rationale for not taking the vaccine.

Right now it's a Witch Hunt in which anti-vaxxers are just being thrown under the bus -- no matter what they believe.

We should respect their belief(s) and fears to try to codify or classify their varied perspectives on why not to take this vaccine. Survey research might be able to parse them into different categories and then we could identify and appreciate their various perspectives better.



Sent from my SM-T227U using RealGM mobile app

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

i don't get what you're saying. I didn't say Kyrie has to take a shot. The local laws asks Kyrie to do so if he wants to play. What I am saying is that Kyrie is a moron, and I dont see much logical reasoning behind not taking the vaccine. I would also prefer if we had a federal vaccine mandate (outside of a doctor's official recommendation not to), cuz its the obvious right thing to do.

Thank you for responding.

When I was in the military I had to take all kind of shots and there was no choice involved.

Years later I got diagnosed with a mental health disorder. There are medications which are prescribed and some have very bad side effects and have even made me worse off. I'm glad the police cannot arrest me when a med level might not be what it should be according to a doctor who may or may not be right.

I think it is stupid to assume the vaccine will not have long-term effects and that it is right for everyone and I could not disagree more about a federal mandate for the shot.

Suppose someone generates a virus in a lab and they believe they have the Cure. What you're saying is they get rich because the government will make everyone get that shot.

A logical reason is that not everyone is getting a shot just like Bradley Beal. Many PhD candidates are not getting the shot. I know someone right now who is sick because of the covid shot side effects.. What if he dies? The girl I went to high school might lose her husband.

Thank you for sharing your opinion

I understand where you're coming from, but ithink a bit differently. You can see this bottom up or top down. I.e think that you can be 1 in a 1000 that can get a negative side effect. Or top-down would be to vaccinate everyone so that you can save 999 out of a 1000. The top down approach only works if most people take the vaccine. Also you have a much higher likelihood of having negative effects from the virus vs the vaccine. As much as I hate the profit motive of big pharma and corporations, you have to follow the science and statistical evidence which heavily favors the vaccine.

Sorry for taking so long to get to you but I totally agree on this last part. Better to be part of the 999 unless you Herman Cain. ironically I believe he died from complications with covid. And later on General Powell.

as a black man I'm beginning to think maybe none of famous among us should take the damn vaccine...

Sent from my SM-T227U using RealGM mobile app

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The prophet part of big Pharma is IMO possibly why this disease exists in the first place.

I think PERHAPS somebody manufactured this s*** virus or stepped on it in a way that it just got out of control because they had the Cure All Along,

Money is the root of all evil and money is going to be made in the Cure. Just as insulin and diabetes medications someone is making a huge profit

Sent from my SM-T227U using RealGM mobile app

[FNQ]

The prophet part of big Pharma is IMO possibly why this disease exists in the first place.

I think PERHAPS somebody manufactured this s*** virus or stepped on it in a way that it just got out of control because they had the Cure All Along,

Money is the root of all evil and money is going to be made in the Cure. Just as insulin and diabetes medications someone is making a huge profit

Sent from my SM-T227U using RealGM mobile app

Just keep a couple things in mind, because this is a Schrodinger application of knowledge here - you are correct, and also a bit incorrect, at the same time.

Take insulin - when the person who actually discovered it could help with diabetes, there was an expectation that he was going to make some serious coin. He sold the patent to it to a university in Canada for... a dollar. Albeit it was in like the 1920s or something, so a dollar would pay your rent, buy you a house, a car, a remote tropical island.. or something I dunno

It didnt become a for-profit scam until the people who bought the patent decided to monetize it.

I share this example because it's important to separate the people searching for a cure, from the people trying to profit from it. They typically are not one and the same, at least historically. And the truth is that while a long-term treatment would be more profitable than a cure, there are enough scientists, doctors, and companies that would happily take the short-term influx of cash/HUGE advertising benefit of the cure right now - and this applies to all diseases. What that trope usually applies to is powerhouse medical companies, Pfizer being one, not investing a ton in research for a cure, because they already have the patent to a treatment. And that's an extremely viable criticism and why the medical field should absolutely not be for-profit, but that's going to take me down a rabbit hole that's not ever going to be productively discussed on a basketball forum

[FNQ]

To further an intelligent discourse what we need to do is try to categorize each of the various anti-vaxxer rationale for not taking the vaccine.

Right now it's a Witch Hunt in which anti-vaxxers are just being thrown under the bus -- no matter what they believe.

We should respect their belief(s) and fears to try to codify or classify their varied perspectives on why not to take this vaccine. Survey research might be able to parse them into different categories and then we could identify and appreciate their various perspectives better.

Sent from my SM-T227U using RealGM mobile app

Data analyst corps have done this, but the simple fact is the solution remains the same: education. Apprehension is borne of ignorance (and again I stress, that's not an insult, ignorance is the default we all have in topics where we don't have a ton of prior education) and the solution is being able to show that the vaccine is safe, and has much better odds.

What if I told you that the vaccine was 10000% safer than any potential complications from COVID? Now you may look at that number and think it's BS, I'm fluffin the number, but is it any different than news sites giddily saying "there was a 400% spike in breakthrough cases!!" knowing that there are more and more vaccinated people every day (more opportunity) and they NEVER share the "gross" numbers? So if we stay true to that kind of messaging, my initial % above - while not an official number - is the counter, and its correct. But let's be honest - if people are this far along in COVID right now and still have fears of the vaccine, its because their research is lacking, or they are being dominated by a fear that is irrational.

The 2nd way is what a lot of anti-vax people suggest, but doesnt work: passive education. I can probably address most *good-faith* issues with the vaccine off the top of my head these days. But every so often I'm told "hey back off, I'll look at the info, etc etc" but there's no follow up. Its just a way to delay the conversation so they can come back later with the same debunked issue, hoping they don't run into someone who will correct it.

So I can respect their apprehension, if its good faith. But most of it isn't, and we can't and shouldnt tiptoe around that issue.

[dckingsfan]

To further an intelligent discourse what we need to do is try to categorize each of the various anti-vaxxer rationale for not taking the vaccine.

Right now it's a Witch Hunt in which anti-vaxxers are just being thrown under the bus -- no matter what they believe.

We should respect their belief(s) and fears to try to codify or classify their varied perspectives on why not to take this vaccine. Survey research might be able to parse them into different categories and then we could identify and appreciate their various perspectives better.

Sent from my SM-T227U using RealGM mobile app

Data analyst corps have done this, but the simple fact is the solution remains the same: education. Apprehension is borne of ignorance (and again I stress, that's not an insult, ignorance is the default we all have in topics where we don't have a ton of prior education) and the solution is being able to show that the vaccine is safe, and has much better odds.

What if I told you that the vaccine was 10000% safer than any potential complications from COVID? Now you may look at that number and think it's BS, I'm fluffin the number, but is it any different than news sites giddily saying "there was a 400% spike in breakthrough cases!!" knowing that there are more and more vaccinated people every day (more opportunity) and they NEVER share the "gross" numbers? So if we stay true to that kind of messaging, my initial % above - while not an official number - is the counter, and its correct. But let's be honest - if people are this far along in COVID right now and still have fears of the vaccine, its because their research is lacking, or they are being dominated by a fear that is irrational.

The 2nd way is what a lot of anti-vax people suggest, but doesn't work: passive education. I can probably address most *good-faith* issues with the vaccine off the top of my head these days. But every so often I'm told "hey back off, I'll look at the info, etc etc" but there's no follow up. Its just a way to delay the conversation so they can come back later with the same debunked issue, hoping they don't run into someone who will correct it.

So I can respect their apprehension, if its good faith. But most of it isn't, and we can't and shouldn't tiptoe around that issue.

This. And that information is often presented in the "brave people presenting a different view" wrapper.

Presenting misinformation on VAERS for example to prop up a notion that the vaccine isn't safe. Or not presenting that you are 10x more likely to die if you haven't been vaccinated.

[wco81]

WT link say NBA is strongly encouraging players to get boosters ASAP.

Are teams going to start having players, including star players, missing games because they get breakthroughs?