[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan

[Gregoire]

I think we need to move the deadline in this case - a lot of posters didnt vote here and comparison is interesting...

[Odinn21]

Top 7 seasons for LeBron James;
2012
2013
2009
2016
2014
2010
2017/2011/2020

Top 7 seasons for Michael Jordan;
1991
1990
1989
1993
1992
1988
1996

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 1991 Michael Jordan
2. 1990 Michael Jordan
3. 2012 LeBron James
4. 2013 LeBron James
5. 2009 LeBron James
6. 1989 Michael Jordan
7. 1993 Michael Jordan
8. 2016 LeBron James
9. 2014 LeBron James
10. 1992 Michael Jordan
11. 2010 LeBron James
12. 2017 LeBron James

Thoughts;
- Jordan's peak is basically higher than James' peak for the reason 70sFan already voiced. Jordan was a bit more consistent at performing on that level. That's why I have Jordan's peak season over James' peak season. James' single game or even 5-10 game stretch highs are higher but he was not as consistent and that had his average performance level a bit below Jordan's.
- 2016 James below 1989/1993 Jordan is looking a bit odd to me right now but according to my notes, it's the way to go.
- All of the votes I recorded have some season of James at #8.
- I'm pretty surprised how little love James' 2014 season got; none. I'll be candid. I think this goes to show how much bias is involved in this comparison so far.
- Even with the issues he had in the playoffs, I have 2010 James over his 2017 version and Jordan's 1988 version. Defensive level is the key factor to that.
- 2017 James vs. 1988 Jordan was an interesting comparison for the last spot. I'm not high on Jordan's defensive performance in 1988 as I stated many times by now. He definitely had the motor but not the awareness. When I compare them as "offense vs. offense & defense vs. defense" and "rs vs. rs & ps vs. ps", James takes the last spot on my list.
- My vote turned out to be a tie with 39-39 point distribution.

[uberhikari]

1. 1991 Michael Jordan: goat season
2. 2009 LeBron James: dominant in every fashion imaginable on both offense and defense and in both RS + PS
3. 1992 Michael Jordan: RS + PS dominance, scoring resiliency in PS was absurd
4. 2012 LeBron James: extraordinary defense for a wing player, extraordinary resilience given Bosh injury and Wade decline
5. 2013 LeBron James: same as 2012 but struggled in the finals
6. 2016 LeBron James: offense slightly declined but turned it up to 100 when it mattered most, goat PS defense for a wing player
7. 1993 Michael Jordan: underwhelming team RS by the bulls lofty standards, but absolutely buzzsawed the PS especially the Finals
8. 1989 Michael Jordan: underwhelming RS team results but absolutely nuked his opponents in the PS
9. 2020 LeBron James: clear physical decline but strong RS and absurd PS run especially on defense
10. 2017 LeBron James: spearheaded a goat PS offense that lit GSW's defense on fire, but defensive decline
11. 1990 Michael Jordan: statistical profile slightly worse but similar to 2009 LeBron but underwhelming RS team results
12. 1996 Michael Jordan: great scaling on goat team but TS% overrated by shortened 3pt line, clear physical decline, underwhelming Finals

I really wanted to add 2010 LeBron but the last 3 games of the playoffs vs. BOS were so bad I couldn't do it in good conscience. I was also surprised that 1990 turned out to be so low for me.

[Odinn21]

I'm failing to see why James' 2017 this much more popular over his 2014? Is it because he ran into the goat team only? I mean 2014 Spurs were not the goat team but they were still in the close vicinity.

When we look at per game numbers alone;
27.4 ppg 7.1 rpg 4.8 apg 1.8 spg 0.6 bpg on .616 efg, .668 ts (+14.5 rts, +5.8 ts add per 36) in 2014 playoffs
32.8 ppg 9.1 rpg 7.8 apg 1.9 spg 1.3 bpg on .622 efg, .649 ts (+10.6 rts, +4.7 ts add per 36) in 2017 playoffs

To see his point production shares in direct numbers;
James' points and assists produced
40.4% of his team's total points and 50.5% when he was on the floor in 2014 playoffs
45.5% of his team's total points and 51.7% when he was on the floor in 2017 playoffs

In per 100 numbers;
he scored 40.0 pts and his 6.9 ast produced 17.3 pts on a 112.8 ORtg team in 2014 playoffs (50.8%)
he scored 39.5 pts and his 9.4 ast produced 24.0 pts on a 120.3 ORtg team in 2017 playoffs (52.8%)

When we look at an individual metric that has a consideration for team output (which is also helpful towards pace adjustment again) such as OBPM;
8.5 BBRef OBPM and 7.1 Backpicks OBPM in 2014 playoffs
7.7 BBRef OBPM and 7.4 Backpicks OBPM in 2017 playoffs

Then when we go further with team output itself to see more this is the outook (a comparison of James' production shares (individual output / team output) in 2014 and 2017 playoffs which had pretty similar scenarios happened);

(playoffs / O-VORP* share / PIE share / GmSc share / Eff share)
2014 / 46.4% / 41.7% / 30.3% / 27.6%
2017 / 40.4% / 37.0% / 29.9% / 28.2%
(*: O-VORP shares were calculated with BBRef OBPM. Backpicks OBPM logs were not full for the teams. Among available numbers, 2014 has the higher value with 41.9% to 41.4%.)

I mean this is the thing makes me puzzled. The appeal of James' 2017 run is mostly coming from him and his team getting outclassed by running into the goat team.
Very similar thing happened in 2014 as well and James' production rates in 2014 within his team were actually higher than his rates in 2017.
Scenario wise, 2014 and 2017 are similar. In terms of production rates, in terms of being a carry job, 2014 is looking a bit closer to his much hyped 2009 than 2014.

So, I'm kind of baffled with this situation.

Further things;
Now, I know that the Cavaliers were having a historic run in 2017 against the EC in terms of rORtg metric. That is indeed a legit thing to point out.

In Engelmann's rs+ps PI-RAPM numbers, James was;
1st in O-RAPM and 173rd in D-RAPM in 2014
2nd in O-RAPM and 161st in D-RAPM in 2017

In terms of regular season runs, he was more productive in 2013-14 rs than 2016-17 rs.

---

I mean there are votes with 2017 James in the top 5. In the current tally, it's sitting at #10 with a rather close gap to 1992/1993 Jordan. 2014 James did not get a single vote until mine.

Last word; I'm not necessarily saying 2014 James should be over 2017 James.
I'm saying what's there to put 2017 James over 2014 James by this much.

[homecourtloss]

I'm failing to see why James' 2017 this much more popular over his 2014? Is it because he ran into the goat team only? I mean 2014 Spurs were not the goat team but they were still in the close vicinity.

When we look at per game numbers alone;
27.4 ppg 7.1 rpg 4.8 apg 1.8 spg 0.6 bpg on .616 efg, .668 ts (+14.5 rts, +5.8 ts add per 36) in 2014 playoffs
32.8 ppg 9.1 rpg 7.8 apg 1.9 spg 1.3 bpg on .622 efg, .649 ts (+10.6 rts, +4.7 ts add per 36) in 2017 playoffs

To see his point production shares in direct numbers;
James' points and assists produced
40.4% of his team's total points and 50.5% when he was on the floor in 2014 playoffs
45.5% of his team's total points and 51.7% when he was on the floor in 2017 playoffs

In per 100 numbers;
he scored 40.0 pts and his 6.9 ast produced 17.3 pts on a 112.8 ORtg team in 2014 playoffs (50.8%)
he scored 39.5 pts and his 9.4 ast produced 24.0 pts on a 120.3 ORtg team in 2017 playoffs (52.8%)

When we look at an individual metric that has a consideration for team output (which is also helpful towards pace adjustment again) such as OBPM;
8.5 BBRef OBPM and 7.1 Backpicks OBPM in 2014 playoffs
7.7 BBRef OBPM and 7.4 Backpicks OBPM in 2017 playoffs

Then when we go further with team output itself to see more this is the outook (a comparison of James' production shares (individual output / team output) in 2014 and 2017 playoffs which had pretty similar scenarios happened);

(playoffs / O-VORP* share / PIE share / GmSc share / Eff share)
2014 / 46.4% / 41.7% / 30.3% / 27.6%
2017 / 40.4% / 37.0% / 29.9% / 28.2%
(*: O-VORP shares were calculated with BBRef OBPM. Backpicks OBPM logs were not full for the teams. Among available numbers, 2014 has the higher value with 41.9% to 41.4%.)

I mean this is the thing makes me puzzled. The appeal of James' 2017 run is mostly coming from him and his team getting outclassed by running into the goat team.
Very similar thing happened in 2014 as well and James' production rates in 2014 within his team were actually higher than his rates in 2017.
Scenario wise, 2014 and 2017 are similar. In terms of production rates, in terms of being a carry job, 2014 is looking a bit closer to his much hyped 2009 than 2014.

So, I'm kind of baffled with this situation.

Further things;
Now, I know that the Cavaliers were having a historic run in 2017 against the EC in terms of rORtg metric. That is indeed a legit thing to point out.

In Engelmann's rs+ps PI-RAPM numbers, James was;
1st in O-RAPM and 173rd in D-RAPM in 2014
2nd in O-RAPM and 161st in D-RAPM in 2017

In terms of regular season runs, he was more productive in 2013-14 rs than 2016-17 rs.

---

I mean there are votes with 2017 James in the top 5. In the current tally, it's sitting at #10 with a rather close gap to 1992/1993 Jordan. 2014 James did not get a single vote until mine.

Last word; I'm not necessarily saying 2014 James should be over 2017 James.
I'm saying what's there to put 2017 James over 2014 James by this much.

It could be due to how his team was performing and how LeBron was setting up the offense and seeming much more assured in what he wanted to do and in control of the game—consistently good jumper, getting to the basket, finishing around the rim in a variety of ways.

Both versions played juggernauts in the Finals. 2017 James was dominant before that matchup in an extreme way.

Cavs: 124.0 ORtg, 105.3 DRtg, +18.7 per 100 possessions with James on court
Cavs: 107.2 ORtg, 120.0 DRtg, -12.8 per 100 possessions with James off court

Few minutes with James off court and some garbage time in there as well but that’s just extreme extreme.

They were +5.7 with Kyrie off court and still produced an ORtg of 118.4.

Then in the finals, the Cavs with James had a positive net rating with James on court through the first four games including being +7 in 46 minutes in game 3, while being -12 somehow in the other 2 minutes. For the series Cavs were -.5 per 100 against the best team ever with James on court.

The Heat weren’t as dominant. They might have played better opposition but the heights the Cavs got to, the Heat never did.

Heat: 114.6 ORtg, 103.9 DRtg, +10.7 per 100 possessions with James on court
Heat: 110.7 ORtg, 110.1 DRtg, +.7 per 100 possessions with James off court

When looking at 2016 and 2017 James, you see a player with less explosiveness but seemingly a better control and mastery of the game and this makes people place it above 2014. In 2014, you get the sense that even with better performances from these teammates, they could lose to a variety of teams. In 2017, they were so good with James on court that only a GOAT team could best them.

[LA Bird]

Almost missed this deadline

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 1991 Jordan
3. 2016 LeBron
4. 1990 Jordan
5. 2017 LeBron
6. 1993 Jordan
7. 2012 LeBron
8. 2013 LeBron
9. 1989 Jordan
10. 1988 Jordan
11. 2010 LeBron
12. 1992 Jordan

Edit: Added reasoning

09 LeBron often gets dismissed because it was an outlier but if he really was worse than peak Jordan, it wouldn't matter if that season was an outlier. There is no reason for changing the discussion from single season (09 alone) into multi year primes (07-11) if LeBron didn't have the higher single season peak in the first place. It would be like a Carl Lewis fan trying to argue Mike Powell doesn't have the single best long jump of all time because his WR was too big of an outlier compared to his other performances. Either 09 LeBron was worse than Jordan or it's not - it being an outlier should be irrelevant. I do see the case for 91 Jordan as the GOAT peak because it is the more picture perfect season with a title but I think that if the main argument against 09 LeBron is that it's too big of an outlier, it is more a critique of his other seasons than 09 itself. Either way, these are the two best peaks in NBA history for me.

Kind of a big tier but I think #3 to #11 are all around a similar level. LeBron's last 3 games against the 2010 Celtics weren't great but neither was his first 3 games in the 2013 Finals. I don't want to sound like Skip Bayless but if Ray Allen had missed that 3 at the end, I don't think the perception of either series or seasons would be too different.

I'm failing to see why James' 2017 this much more popular over his 2014?

On/offs isn't everything but there was a huge gap between those two seasons.
2017: +18.88, 2nd best of career behind 09
2014: +7.50, 4th worst ahead of only 04/11/18

[Odinn21]

LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan results;

Code: Select all

1.  127 points / 0.962 share / '91 Michael Jordan
2.  111 points / 0.841 share / '90 Michael Jordan
3.  100 points / 0.758 share / '09 LeBron James
4.   85 points / 0.644 share / '12 LeBron James
5.   75 points / 0.568 share / '16 LeBron James
6.   72 points / 0.545 share / '89 Michael Jordan
6.   72 points / 0.545 share / '13 LeBron James
8.   61 points / 0.462 share / '93 Michael Jordan
9.   53 points / 0.402 share / '92 Michael Jordan
10.  49 points / 0.371 share / '17 LeBron James
11.  27 points / 0.205 share / '88 Michael Jordan
12.  12 points / 0.091 share / '10 LeBron James
                               
13.   7 points / 0.053 share / '14 LeBron James
14.   4 points / 0.030 share / '96 Michael Jordan
15.   3 points / 0.023 share / '20 LeBron James

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
LeBron James 38 - 41 Michael Jordan

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
LeBron James 393 - 451 Michael Jordan

Winner: Michael Jordan

Results on Google Sheets

[Djoker]

^ Good post and we've been over this in another thread but I'll just repost it here.

2017 Finals

Game 1: -22 with Lebron 40:02; 0 without Lebron 7:58
Game 2: -11 with Lebron 39:22; -8 without Lebron 8:38
Game 3: +7 with Lebron 45:37; -12 without Lebron 2:23
Game 4: +32 with Lebron 40:46; -11 without Lebron 7:14
Game 5: -11 with Lebron 46:13; +4 without Lebron 1:47

Lebron's ON numbers are greatly improved by Game 4 (already down 0-3) in which the Cavs blew out the Warriors. In fact apart from Game 3 and Game 4, the Cavs were getting blown out even with Lebron on the floor.

I am with Odinn21 that perhaps the 2017 season is getting overrated while 2014 is getting underrated.

The 2017 Cavs waxing a bunch of teams before the finals could have something to do with how mediocre those teams were.

42-win -0.64 SRS Pacers
51-win +3.65 SRS Raptors (with Kyle Lowry injured)
53-win +2.25 SRS Celtics (with Isaiah Thomas injured)

With injuries taken into account, the Cavs crushed what are roughly borderline playoff teams (?). I have a hunch that the 2007 Cavs wouldn't even the paste a good team like the 56-win +3.63 SRS 2014 Pacers. We'll never know for sure but that Pacers team is a big step up over the competition the 2017 Cavs faced in the east. The 2014 Heat also made quick work of the Bobcats and Nets in that playoffs but ended up with a tougher fight against a much better Pacers team.

[Odinn21]

In 2014, you get the sense that even with better performances from these teammates, they could lose to a variety of teams. In 2017, they were so good with James on court that only a GOAT team could best them.

Raw on/off swings are not that telling. Raw on/off swings in ps?..

James' raw on/off swings from 2009 to 2020 in the playoffs (numbers are from pbpstats);
+13.6 in 2009
+24.0 in 2010
-13.5 in 2011
+25.5 in 2012
+1.4 in 2013
+8.7 in 2014
+2.4 in 2015
+20.1 in 2016
+33.3 in 2017
+4.5 in 2018
+15.1 in 2020

What do all these tell us? Basically not much.
I mean was James better in 2010 playoffs than 2009 playoffs? Or was he worse in 2013 playoffs than 2012 playoffs by that much? That is a massive difference between his b2b title runs.

Also I disagree with the bolded part because you made it sound like it was a close series.

And again, I have 2014 over 2017 but I wasn't arguing for 2014 > 2017. I get the appeal of James' mastery on offense and importance of running into the goat team from narrative perspective. But what I'm saying is why there's no consideration for his 2014? Similar narrative to 2017 with similar stats distributions to 2009. Yet, 2009 and 2017 got first place votes while 2014 was entirely ignored and even James' 2010 got more recognition.

[falcolombardi]

i expected it to be a lot closer looking at the votes tbh

[falcolombardi]

Almost missed this deadline

1. 2009 LeBron
2. 1991 Jordan
3. 2016 LeBron
4. 1990 Jordan
5. 2017 LeBron
6. 1993 Jordan
7. 2012 LeBron
8. 2013 LeBron
9. 1989 Jordan
10. 1988 Jordan
11. 2010 Jordan
12. 1992 Jordan

Will add the reasoning later.

you have a small typo and put 2010 jordan

[Owly]

Fwiw (and for me little, without comprehensive rigorous analysis after, and once you've done that the coach's comments matter lest apart from informing the analysis) Van Gundy has also apparently stated

"And we didn't try to let LeBron get his, he just got it," Van Gundy said, speaking about the 2009 series. "He got us for 36 a game. Believe me, we didn't go in and say we're letting LeBron get his, we tried like hell to play him."

which, again, fwiw, runs counter to your statement (post 48)

You can choose to pretend like that wasn't the case in 09 just because Stan et. al decided to let him get his. I can't ignore that.

It would appear he's all over the place in what he's said. I've heard him in interviews say he preferred not to send extra guys. He seems to be saying that in this article. https://www.mlive.com/pistons/2015/11/by_making_lebron_james_a_score.html

LeBron James will get his statistics but some are more meaningful than others, and throughout Stan Van Gundy's coaching career, this is how he has guarded the Cleveland Cavaliers' superstar, straight-up, no double-teams, limit his playmaking, let him try to make shots.

"To me, that's been the better way to play his teams," Van Gundy said.

Some nights, James does make shots. Van Gundy recalled back to the 2009 Eastern Conference Finals, when he was coaching Orlando and James was in his first run with the Cavaliers.

There's also the actual game tape which shows Magic generally played him straight up way more than Celtics, Spurs, or Mavs. I still give him credit though. He was awesome in those games. I think what Stan meant in that quote is it's not like they gave him a red carpet to the hoop. They still tried to defend him they just didn't do it with zone or extra defenders to cut off driving lanes.

My problem is more that he directly states he wasn't doing in the exact same wording what you said he had said he was doing. Even granting any possible inconsistencies on his part and perhaps you speaking off the top of your head ... it's not a good look (to put it mildly).

I wouldn't claim the expertise nor patience to track defensive coverage (would have to rely on someone I trust with some expertise [and the time to do it properly]) and grant that he's said he was more afraid of the damage LeBron did as a passer and thus coverage typically tilted towards denying that more than scoring (though rejecting the idea - as in the article quoted that it is a simple matter saying: "good luck", "What you're really doing is just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks," "You can't just go in and have a blanket strategy of how you want to play LeBron James" and that that '09 LeBron "didn't have those guys [Love and Irving] when we played them in '09").

[VanWest82]

My problem is more that he directly states he wasn't doing in the exact same wording what you said he had said he was doing. Even granting any possible inconsistencies on his part and perhaps you speaking off the top of your head ... it's not a good look (to put it mildly).

Ok well if it makes you feel better I retract my throwaway line about Magic "letting Lebron get his." I'm sure if we asked Jalen Rose and MoPete they'd take issue with the notion that they let Kobe get his in his 81 point game. Or maybe they wouldn't, who cares. Either way, it doesn't change my overall point about the difference in the way they played him or about Lebron's shooting generally from that time in his career (pre-2012). And even if someone did go back and produced sufficient evidence that Orlando's game plan was absolutely perfectly designed to stop James (it wasn't), one hot two week stretch in May doesn't make someone a good shooter, especially when all the surrounding evidence suggests he wasn't; rather, he just got hot. And if we can agree on that then I don't see why that two week stretch makes 09 Lebron the best version of himself let alone the GOAT version of a basketball player.

[colts18]

2009 lebron thrived against a strong defense in the playooffs so is a weird example to use

This completely ignores how Magic played Lebron which was to let him get his and stay home on the other Cavs.

Where did you get this idea? The Magic gameplan was to stop LeBron from getting near the basket. Nothing about stopping the other Cavs players. Dwight Howard talks about the gameplan in the video below at 21:45. He never once mentioned LeBrons teammates. The Magic game plan was geared to collapsing on LeBron when he penetrated to the basket.

Watch on YouTube

I have pics below of the Magic's approach to defending LeBron. Everytime LeBron would receive the ball in the perimeter, Dwight Howard would shift to LeBron's side of the court and play a semi-zone near the basket. MJ never faced a defense like that in his career because it was an illegal defense violation.

-There's a myth out there that the Magic defense played LeBron 1 on 1, guarded his shooters tightly, and forced LeBron to beat them. That is not what happened at all. The Magic gameplan was clearly geared towards stopping LeBron. Dwight Howard said in the interview that the gameplan was to prevent LeBron from getting into the paint. Every time LeBron had the ball isolated, Dwight Howard would shift completely over to that side ignoring his

Pic of the Magic defense


LeBron being triple teamed

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm failing to see why James' 2017 this much more popular over his 2014? Is it because he ran into the goat team only? I mean 2014 Spurs were not the goat team but they were still in the close vicinity.

In short I'd say its because it came right after 2016 when a lot of people have this view that LeBron leveled up in terms of how he could adjust in a 7 game series. His passing and game management were also much more on display in 2017 compared to in 2014. Plus the whole thing of the Cavs having the highest playoff ORtg that year or close to it. Which isn't me saying that I view 17 as superior to 14 but that's the reasoning I think that is often used for 2017 being among his best seasons.

[70sFan]

Jordan's top seasons:

1991
1990
1989
1993
1992
1988
1996
1997
1998
1987

James best seasons:

2012
2009
2013
2016
2014
2017
2010
2018
2020

My list:

1. 1991 Michael Jordan - as I said, I think that Jordan's effort was more consistent throughout the season. It's close and I do think that James had higher highs (especially on defense), but consistency matters and you won't find many more consistent players than Jordan.
2. 1990 Michael Jordan - similar to 1991, only with slightly lesser experience on playing in traingle offense.
3. 2012 LeBron James - the debate was mostly focused on 2009 James, but I think that people forget how ridiculous he was in 2012. His Miami years are very underrated as a whole.
4. 2009 LeBron James - I'd compare that season to 1989 Jordan and I'm simply more impressed with James carryjob. Probably the most productive season ever on offensive end, though not necessarily the best.
5. 2013 LeBron James - another monstrous season, could be higher but I'm hestitant with his relatively weaker postseason run.

6. 1989 Michael Jordan - not as refined on offensive end, but crazy motor and ridiculous production.
7. 1993 Michael Jordan - very, very close between 1993 and 2016. Usually, I pick 2016 James over non-GOAT seasons because of his ridiculous finals performance, but Jordan himself was amazing in the playoffs and I'm more impressed with his RS performance.
8. 2016 LeBron James - as I said, GOAT-level finals performance has to be taken into account and it's not like the rest of the season was mediocre either.

9. 1992 Michael Jordan - slightly worse overall than 1993, mostly because of his struggles against the Knicks in the playoffs.
10. 2014 LeBron James - highly underrated season, arguably James offensive peak. I agree with Odinn, I don't understand the lack of interest that this version of James gets. As a Spurs fan I was legitimately scared of him in the finals.

11. 2017 LeBron James - another amazing offensive season from James, though his defense took a dip. He was good enough to overcome 1988 Jordan's motor and production though.
12. 1988 Michael Jordan - close, but ahead of 2010 James to me - mostly because James injury in the playoffs and questionable off-court situation.

HM: 2010 James, 1996 Michael Jordan

[VanWest82]

Where did you get this idea?

I watched the games but Stan has also talked about it a bunch. I quoted an article earlier itt but here's another one: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2430524-the-lebron-rules-seven-series-and-scars-that-helped-make-lebron-james

While Orlando's "bust their ass" attitude may have played a part, so did some strategy. Stan Van Gundy, then the Magic coach, has never believed in double-teaming James much because "of all the great scorers in the league, he's the best passer," and "he can hurt you as much or more with the pass as he can with the shot."

So the Magic tried singling him with everyone from Pietrus to Rashard Lewis to Hedo Turkoglu, while focusing on limiting attacks and free throws, and holding out hope that, as Van Gundy put it, "it's not a night he's lighting up every jump shot."

"The team he has now is a lot more talented around," Van Gundy acknowledged recently, when speaking of the current Cavaliers, "so it was easier to do that then."

Think I'll trust Stan over Dwight.

The Magic gameplan was to stop LeBron from getting near the basket. Nothing about stopping the other Cavs players. Dwight Howard talks about the gameplan in the video below at 21:45. He never once mentioned LeBrons teammates. The Magic game plan was geared to collapsing on LeBron when he penetrated to the basket.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

I have pics below of the Magic's approach to defending LeBron. Everytime LeBron would receive the ball in the perimeter, Dwight Howard would shift to LeBron's side of the court and play a semi-zone near the basket. MJ never faced a defense like that in his career because it was an illegal defense violation.

-There's a myth out there that the Magic defense played LeBron 1 on 1, guarded his shooters tightly, and forced LeBron to beat them. That is not what happened at all. The Magic gameplan was clearly geared towards stopping LeBron. Dwight Howard said in the interview that the gameplan was to prevent LeBron from getting into the paint. Every time LeBron had the ball isolated, Dwight Howard would shift completely over to that side ignoring his

Pic of the Magic defense

Spoiler:

LeBron being triple teamed

Spoiler:

So...I never said that Magic only played him straight up in PnR or guarded him one on one exclusively, just that they did so a lot.

Like here:

Spoiler:

And here:

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And here:

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And here:

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And here:

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And here:

Spoiler:

And here:

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And here:

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And here:

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And here:

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And here:

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And here:

Spoiler:

This was all just in one half of one game. Sure they had guys shade a bit toward the paint from the weakside but it wasn't zone or bringing three guys to strong side trying to force the ball out of his hands.

[falcolombardi]

Where did you get this idea?

I watched the games but Stan has also talked about it a bunch. I quoted an article earlier itt but here's another one: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2430524-the-lebron-rules-seven-series-and-scars-that-helped-make-lebron-james

While Orlando's "bust their ass" attitude may have played a part, so did some strategy. Stan Van Gundy, then the Magic coach, has never believed in double-teaming James much because "of all the great scorers in the league, he's the best passer," and "he can hurt you as much or more with the pass as he can with the shot."

So the Magic tried singling him with everyone from Pietrus to Rashard Lewis to Hedo Turkoglu, while focusing on limiting attacks and free throws, and holding out hope that, as Van Gundy put it, "it's not a night he's lighting up every jump shot."

"The team he has now is a lot more talented around," Van Gundy acknowledged recently, when speaking of the current Cavaliers, "so it was easier to do that then."

Think I'll trust Stan over Dwight.

The Magic gameplan was to stop LeBron from getting near the basket. Nothing about stopping the other Cavs players. Dwight Howard talks about the gameplan in the video below at 21:45. He never once mentioned LeBrons teammates. The Magic game plan was geared to collapsing on LeBron when he penetrated to the basket.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

I have pics below of the Magic's approach to defending LeBron. Everytime LeBron would receive the ball in the perimeter, Dwight Howard would shift to LeBron's side of the court and play a semi-zone near the basket. MJ never faced a defense like that in his career because it was an illegal defense violation.

-There's a myth out there that the Magic defense played LeBron 1 on 1, guarded his shooters tightly, and forced LeBron to beat them. That is not what happened at all. The Magic gameplan was clearly geared towards stopping LeBron. Dwight Howard said in the interview that the gameplan was to prevent LeBron from getting into the paint. Every time LeBron had the ball isolated, Dwight Howard would shift completely over to that side ignoring his

Pic of the Magic defense

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LeBron being triple teamed

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So...I never said that Magic only played him straight up in PnR or guarded him one on one exclusively, just that they did so a lot.

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This was all just in one half of one game. Sure they had guys shade a bit toward the paint from the weakside but it wasn't zone or bringing three guys to strong side trying to force the ball out of his hands.

lets say that orlando was "letting lebron get his" in a way no other top defense ever defender jordan or lebron like,

wouldnt you agree then thst lebron scored/playmaked about as well as it can be expected of a player in thst kind of defense?

no matter how we slice it, it was a near 40 ppg (in a slow-ish era to boot) series against a league #1 defense in strong efficiency, how many scoring performanece have there ever been better than that?

like if peak jordan was defensed the same way by the same orlando team how much better do you think he would have done? honest question

[VanWest82]

lets say that orlando was "letting lebron get his" in a way no other top defense ever defender jordan or lebron like,

wouldnt you agree then thst lebron scored/playmaked about as well as it can be expected of a player in thst kind of defense?

no matter how we slice it, it was a near 40 ppg (in a slow-ish era to boot) series against a league #1 defense in strong efficiency, how many scoring performanece have there ever been better than that?

like if peak jordan was defensed the same way by the same orlando team how much better do you think he would have done? honest question

Yes, Lebron was awesome. There's no question about it. We saw MJ shred plenty of really good playoff defenses. It's impossible to say what he would've done vs. that Orlando team. I suspect they would've defended MJ differently.

[LukaTheGOAT]

‪1. '09 LeBron — the impact numbers in both RS and PS and the carry job of a that cast to 66 wins and an 8+ SRS are unrivaled. I think this is the peak season even though for concentrated amounts of time, I believe 2016-2017 LeBron is a better player‬
2. ‘91 Jordan- Contention for GOAT season. Everything just came together between athleticism, playmaking, smoothness of that turnaround fade, everything
3. ‪ ‘12 LeBron — high motor impact throughout RS and PS and incredibly robust overall game ‬
4. ‘13 LeBron — same as ‘12, 27 game win streak, playoffs impact metrics not as good, but much of that has to do with playing with an injured Wade who wasn’t very good in the playoffs.
5. 16 LeBron — Regular season not as good but highest possible level vs. 73 win team. Unbelievably low FTr even though shot more at the rim than in any other season. More calls there and season moves up. ‬
6. 90 Jordan —Just under his best season
7. ‘89 Jordan - Close to 1990 Jordan
8. ‪‘17 LeBron — offensive mastery of game in playoffs, and only literally the GOAT team could stop him from winning a title. I think this is his offensive peak but regular season not as good. Cannot see a team losing a title unless it’s a juggernaut of juggernaut team in the Finals and even then, he was +6 on court through 4 games
9. ‘88 Jordan — not as polished as later versions
10. ‪‘10 LeBron — Don’t feel right placing him this far down since metrics close to 2009 metrics but playoffs not as subli‬me but did have injury. There’s a very good argument this is a top 3 season for James, but there are so many great seasons between these two.
11. ‘‪20 LeBron — highly underrated season. He led an unconventional team playing against the prevailing success tactics of the era to a title. When paired with a player playing really well (i.e., AD), Lebron showed how dominant his team can be. That Lakers team had four 30+ point leads innthe 4th quarter of playoff games, six games up 27+ in the fourth...‬
12. ‘92 Jordan — close to ‘93 Jordan

You insinuated that my list is biased and one-sided but then you proceeded to give four of the top five spots to Lebron.

I justified my list with per 75 numbers in which peak Jordan from 1988-1993 basically crushes any non-2009 Lebron. Years like 2012, 2013 and 2016 are nowhere near peak Jordan offensively. That's just the truth. 2009 is the only one that is up there and 2018 comes close but the latter is anywhere between mediocre and terrible on defense plus Lebron's regular season was clearly a step below GOAT level in 2018. And regular season play still counts for something even for me and I emphasize playoffs. Anyways...

Per 75 Playoff Numbers:

1988 Jordan: 32.9/6.4/4.3 on +6.0 rTS with 3.0 to (10 games)
1989 Jordan: 32.6/6.5/7.1 on +6.5 rTS with 3.8 to (17 games)
1990 Jordan: 33.8/6.6/6.3 on +5.5 rTS with 3.2 to (16 games)
1991 Jordan: 31.4/6.4/8.4 on +6.6 rTS with 2.8 to (17 games)
1992 Jordan: 33.4/6.0/5.6 on +4.0 rTS with 3.5 to (22 games)
1993 Jordan: 34.6/6.7/5.9 on +1.7 rTS with 2.3 to (19 games)

2012 Lebron: 29.0/9.3/5.4 on +4.9 rTS with 3.4 to (23 games)
2013 Lebron: 25.6/8.3/6.5 on +5.0 rTS with 3.0 to (23 games)
2016 Lebron: 26.7/9.7/7.7 on +4.4 rTS with 3.6 to (21 games)

On average about 5 more points per 75, comparable efficiency, comparable creation and lower turnovers. That's easily a tier ahead offensively for Jordan over Lebron.

You'd have to value 2012/2013/2016 Lebron at elite big men level defensively (someone actually said this; I'm sorry but it's funny ) to put him over 1989 and 1990 Jordan. I value peak Lebron as slightly better defensively but on the same tier. However even if Lebron was a tier above he'd still be behind Jordan overall because perimeter players don't impact the game defensively nearly as much as they do offensively. Based on Ben Taylor's modelling IIRC, peak Lebron's defense is 1 points/100 better than peak Jordan's defense. That's literally nothing compared to Jordan's huge edges in the four offensive categories driven by his scoring.

I have one question for everyone in general? What is this historical PIPM data based on? We don't have play-by-play/plus minus prior to 1997 so this is all boxscore based? Because I've seen people use it as substitute for RAPM which I think isn't right. The way I see it we simply don't have plus-minus data for Jordan's peak years and it is what it is.

Looking at the box-score to estimate impact is not great and even then, box-score numbers say Lebron's PS offense is better

Top 10 Offensive PS per RAPTOR between MJ and Lebron (More Than 1 Series)

1. 09 Lebron
(GAP)
2. 91 MJ
3. 17 Lebron
4. 18 Lebron
5. 93 Jordan
6. 90 Jordan
7. 12 LBJ
8. 89 MJ
9. 13 LBJ
10. 10 LBJ

Top 10 Offensive PS per Backpicks BPM between MJ and Lebron.

1. 09 Lebron
(GAP)
2. 91 MJ
3. 18 LBJ
4./5. 17 LBJ/93 MJ
6. 90 MJ
7. 14 LBJ
8. 89 MJ
9. 92 MJ
10. 10 LBJ

Lebron lead better single year, three year, and 8 year PS offenses than Jordan. And when you consider that Lebron lead offenses are better and he adds more value with the ball in his hands, the fact that his Miami years are still up here are pretty incredible and more than gives him an argument for being a better offensive player than Jordan.