Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition)

[winforlose]

You should always take an opportunity to make your team better. Almost nobody at the time was a bigger “character concern” in the NBA than Rasheed Wallace, but the already excellent Detroit Pistons took a gamble on him (two unprotected firsts and decent players) right at the Trade Deadline.
https://www.nba.com/pistons/features/big-deal-pistons-deadline-acquisition-rasheed-wallace-shook-nba-and-brought-another-banner

I just think people are completely lost in the sauce on this topic. Ultimately, if the price point is right, Minnesota should pull the trigger. That said, Daryl Morey is fully comfortable holding out for more.

I agree that the antics are about forcing the trade rather than the man’s deeper issues. Given that some people are getting lost in the sauce. For me the issue has always been price point. I just see two many flaws to warrant anywhere close to the asking price. The guy might win a few more games (emphasis on might.) but he will compromise depth and bring tangible weaknesses to our offense. Everything else is just noise. I think a lot of GMs share my concerns and that is why they won’t overpay.

[Baseline81]

He couldn’t even lead lsu to the field of 68 teams playing in a conference that isn’t considered a ball conference

If I recall, Edwards' Georgia team would have missed the tournament.

[minimus]

btw, who is the closest to Rasheed Wallace player NBA, skillwise?

[Baseline81]

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[Chello1]

While their situations are similar, I don’t think Jimmy Butler and Ben Simmons have anything similar between the ears.

Jimmy came into the NBA as the 30th pick, and road the bench for two years in Chicago before he even got major minutes. Simmons was drafted 1st, and has had every opportunity given to him.

Jimmy worked his tail off to improve his game. Simmons has the same flaws he did when he came in - they are probably worse than ever,

Jimmy wanted the ball in his hands for the last shot, no matter how many times he failed at it. Simmons passes up dunks, and has never been good in pressure situations,

Perfecy put!

[old school 34]

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I think many people believe that if Ben Simmons is traded away from PHI, he will suddenly become fixed, mentally and emotionally. I am sure it would be harder for Ben to stay in PHI at this point, with media, fans, and even his teammates taking shots at him. But I think of his issues as part of his psyche. We saw problems in PHI, but we saw them at LSU and we saw them for Australia.

An inability to deal with pressure is a big deal for any NBA player, but it is especially troubling for a guy that wants to be your PG and is scared to shoot. We are used to looking at players with major injuries, and worrying if they will ever get back to being worth a max deal. I look at this as a mental injury, which manifests a chronic problem. I certainly do not believe if you get Simmons out of PHI, you automatically remove the emotional fragility that has plagued him everywhere else.

Couple of my more immediate thoughts on this...if where this is starting to head, if true....I'm out & would prefer to not roll the dice on BS mental state @ that price. I'd rather overpay for a Jeremy Grant or Myles Turner than go there. And I feel more confident that Gupta can step away from the table than Rosas would've been able to. But does a guy like ARod think he could relate to BS & fix him?

Now secondly, this could really all be a made up leverage play & the mental stuff is extremely overblown &/or made up to a large degree....& if so, while I get it, but with all the athletes bringing a focus to one's mental health...they don't need Simmons & Klutch making a mockery of it again....that would be extremely unfortunate.

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[Takingbaconback]

btw, who is the closest to Rasheed Wallace player NBA, skillwise?

Franz Wagner needs more time to get to Sheed's skill level, but his skillset is comparable. Very good defensive player, moves his feet really well for a guy at his height, good BBIQ, good passer/big man facilitator, decent at attacking the rim, and decent shooter I think. Saddiq Bey is another guy that could be comparable if he puts everything together. PJ Tucker is much shorter but I think he brings similar traits, although he is a bit slower with his age

[Klomp]

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I think many people believe that if Ben Simmons is traded away from PHI, he will suddenly become fixed, mentally and emotionally. I am sure it would be harder for Ben to stay in PHI at this point, with media, fans, and even his teammates taking shots at him. But I think of his issues as part of his psyche. We saw problems in PHI, but we saw them at LSU and we saw them for Australia.

An inability to deal with pressure is a big deal for any NBA player, but it is especially troubling for a guy that wants to be your PG and is scared to shoot. We are used to looking at players with major injuries, and worrying if they will ever get back to being worth a max deal. I look at this as a mental injury, which manifests a chronic problem. I certainly do not believe if you get Simmons out of PHI, you automatically remove the emotional fragility that has plagued him everywhere else.

Mental health struggles are not a fragility or a psyche issue. Were you clamoring to trade Covington once he revealed he was struggling with mental health that the team was helping him through. Should we have traded away Towns once he was scared to play in a game last year?

[shrink]

Mental health struggles are not a fragility or a psyche issue.

They can be either, or neither.

My point was that simply changing Simmons’ situation is not a sure cure-all to his issues, as evidenced by his history in other circumstances outside of Philadelphia.

[younggunsmn]

While their situations are similar, I don’t think Jimmy Butler and Ben Simmons have anything similar between the ears.

Jimmy came into the NBA as the 30th pick, and road the bench for two years in Chicago before he even got major minutes. Simmons was drafted 1st, and has had every opportunity given to him.

Jimmy worked his tail off to improve his game. Simmons has the same flaws he did when he came in - they are probably worse than ever,

Jimmy wanted the ball in his hands for the last shot, no matter how many times he failed at it. Simmons passes up dunks, and has never been good in pressure situations,

Simmons and Butler are very much the same type of player, defense is their bread and butter, efficient from the field due to ability to score inside despite not being great shooters. You seem to be going out of your way to drone on about Simmons flaws without mentioning his strengths, which are unique and many. The metrics paint a very different picture than what you would have us believe.
You seem to be building a strawman around one failed playoff series to measure his entire career.

Deangelo Russell has ONE above average skill, 3-point shooting. He is a bottom-5% defender by most metrics.
He has been in the league longer than SImmons and hasn't put in the work to change his weak lower body or learned to get to the rim.
But he is our player so the same criticisms you throw at Simmons don't seem to apply.

I think you are making a big mistake framing this as "mental health" or "psyche.
It's much more about PERSONALITY.

Embiid and Rivers are very old school, arrogant, confrontational type people with high expectations.
Simmons is an introvert in the same mold as KAT and D-Lo.
Thus the very passive aggressive practice antics versus Butler's yelling and carrying on.

There is the same type of personality clash happening in Philly as happened here between KAT and Butler.
If you look at it from a personality perspective, SImmons would fit in perfectly here with KAT who seems to be more introverted and Finch who is much more of a chill coach than Rivers who I can't understand why Philly even wanted in the first place.

[Klomp]

Deangelo Russell has ONE above average skill, 3-point shooting. He is a bottom-5% defender by most metrics.
He has been in the league longer than SImmons and hasn't put in the work to change his weak lower body or learned to get to the rim.
But he is our player so the same criticisms you throw at Simmons don't seem to apply.

I think you are making a big mistake framing this as "mental health" or "psyche.
It's much more about PERSONALITY.

Embiid and Rivers are very old school, arrogant, confrontational type people with high expectations.
Simmons is an introvert in the same mold as KAT and D-Lo.
Thus the very passive aggressive practice antics versus Butler's yelling and carrying on.

There is the same type of personality clash happening in Philly as happened here between KAT and Butler.
If you look at it from a personality perspective, SImmons would fit in perfectly here with KAT who seems to be more introverted and Finch who is much more of a chill coach than Rivers who I can't understand why Philly even wanted in the first place.

I 1000% agree with this.

Simmons' criticisms are very much the same we've heard for KAT's whole career. No defense, mentally weak, etc.

I very much believe it's a personality clash you could even throw Morey's stubbornness into the equation.

Of course a trade wouldn't be a magic cure-all guarantee, shrink. Nothing in life is. Doesn't mean you don't pursue things to try to improve when the opportunity comes.

[shrink]

De angelo Russell has ONE above average skill, 3-point shooting. He is a bottom-5% defender by most metrics. He has been in the league longer than SImmons and hasn't put in the work to change his weak lower body or learned to get to the rim. But he is our player so the same criticisms you throw at Simmons don't seem to apply.

You’re the first person to say I don’t criticize D’Angelo Russell enough. I’ll work on that.

[Calinks]

Outside of Minnesota, most media people thought the Pelicans and Mavericks were better teams than us. That may in fact be how things play out but right now, very early, both of those teams seem to be struggling. The Nets have also not looked like a title team. The NBA season rarely plays out as most would think before opening day.

Could New Orleans, Dallas, Brooklyn, or some other team emerge as a purser of Ben Simmons if things continue to go south? This is going to be really interesting.

[Slim Tubby]

One of the greatest moments in sports would occur if Ben comes back to play and the Philly fans in unison roar when he’s announced as a starter at his first home game.

It might also be the only thing, outside of a trade, that helps get him straight in the head.


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[D1SGRUNTL3D]

He couldn’t even lead lsu to the field of 68 teams playing in a conference that isn’t considered a ball conference

If I recall, Edwards' Georgia team would have missed the tournament.

Pfft. Edwards would’ve went into god mode in the sec tournament and gotten the auto bid

[Klomp]

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[Note30]

Deangelo Russell has ONE above average skill, 3-point shooting. He is a bottom-5% defender by most metrics.
He has been in the league longer than SImmons and hasn't put in the work to change his weak lower body or learned to get to the rim.
But he is our player so the same criticisms you throw at Simmons don't seem to apply.

I think you are making a big mistake framing this as "mental health" or "psyche.
It's much more about PERSONALITY.

Embiid and Rivers are very old school, arrogant, confrontational type people with high expectations.
Simmons is an introvert in the same mold as KAT and D-Lo.
Thus the very passive aggressive practice antics versus Butler's yelling and carrying on.

There is the same type of personality clash happening in Philly as happened here between KAT and Butler.
If you look at it from a personality perspective, SImmons would fit in perfectly here with KAT who seems to be more introverted and Finch who is much more of a chill coach than Rivers who I can't understand why Philly even wanted in the first place.

I 1000% agree with this.

Simmons' criticisms are very much the same we've heard for KAT's whole career. No defense, mentally weak, etc.

I very much believe it's a personality clash you could even throw Morey's stubbornness into the equation.

Of course a trade wouldn't be a magic cure-all guarantee, shrink. Nothing in life is. Doesn't mean you don't pursue things to try to improve when the opportunity comes.

Uhhh are you missing green text?

[DeBouillon]

Outside of Minnesota, most media people thought the Pelicans and Mavericks were better teams than us. That may in fact be how things play out but right now, very early, both of those teams seem to be struggling. The Nets have also not looked like a title team. The NBA season rarely plays out as most would think before opening day.

Could New Orleans, Dallas, Brooklyn, or some other team emerge as a purser of Ben Simmons if things continue to go south? This is going to be really interesting.

To me the most obvious fix for both Brooklyn and Philly is to exchange Kyrie for Simmons. It;s as if they both have dead roster money.

[shrink]

While their situations are similar, I don’t think Jimmy Butler and Ben Simmons have anything similar between the ears.

Jimmy came into the NBA as the 30th pick, and road the bench for two years in Chicago before he even got major minutes. Simmons was drafted 1st, and has had every opportunity given to him.

Jimmy worked his tail off to improve his game. Simmons has the same flaws he did when he came in - they are probably worse than ever,

Jimmy wanted the ball in his hands for the last shot, no matter how many times he failed at it. Simmons passes up dunks, and has never been good in pressure situations,

Simmons and Butler are very much the same type of player, defense is their bread and butter, efficient from the field due to ability to score inside despite not being great shooters. You seem to be going out of your way to drone on about Simmons flaws without mentioning his strengths, which are unique and many. The metrics paint a very different picture than what you would have us believe.
You seem to be building a strawman around one failed playoff series to measure his entire career..

I find this argument completely untrue, a desperate hand-wave to try to dismiss problems that Simmons has had for a long time, and have reached a head lately. There is nothing in my post that focuses on “one failed playoff series,” and I find it insulting that you are making this claim.

In fact, my position has always been

He’s on a max deal, and carries these major, major issues.

1. Shooting is horrible. Defenses can pack the middle to remove KAT’s biggest advantage and crowd Edwards drives.
2. He’s a young player who flat out hasn’t improved. Can he?
3. Confidence. Unwillingness to shoot. Wilts in pressure situations. Now says his head isn’t ready to play.
4. What if you trade assets for him and he gets unhappy? Others ignore PHI behavior - he’s shown he won’t live up to his contract.

People were complaining about his shooting, his lack of development, etc, long before “one failed playoff series.”

2. Moreover, what “metrics” are you talking about that measure what is “going on between his ears.” If you need metrics for observable behaviors, I can easily produce them for the first three problems I listed, and the Sixers are living #4. Can you tell me what “metrics tell a different story,” from anything I’ve posted?

3. Finally, the fact that Jimmy and Ben both are good defensively does not mean they have similar mentalities. Nor does the fact that DLo, like Ben, hasn’t improved means that Jimmy didn’t improve and that’s a pretty glaring difference between Ben and Jimmy.

[Takingbaconback]

Don't forget his horrible FT shooting percentage throughout his career. That's huge considering he's going to have the ball in his hands longer than anyone else on the team. How many times have we seen missed free throws come back to bite a team? Wolves are already a poor FT shooting team, Simmons is going to spread bad juju with his crappy misses.