Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[RSP83]

I think Pat will be the lightning rod of discussion for the Bulls this year. When things go sideways, fans will look at Pat as the scapegoat, as the guy that needs to do more, needs to step up. I’m not saying right or wrong, but I think he’ll be a polarizing topic while the rest of the team kind of is what it is.

I like Pat. I struggle a bit to see the next wing star in him. I don’t see the demeanor, the intensity there. Hopefully I’m wrong, but the mentality is tough to change. I think he’s a very nice 14 and 6 player with very good defense. If someone like Simmons or Siakim becomes available for package around him, I hope the deal gets done quickly. But I like him, so I hope he succeeds.

I sense the same. I don't think he's that type of player, or at least the sample size is still too small for me to conclude. But does he have to be? I still think he's a high level talent. If he turns into a Shawn Marion type player, I'm still pretty happy with that. A guy that can play multipositional defense and still highly effective on offense primarily playing off the ball. But Pat is actually a bit more skilled than Marion, and Horry (mentioned in this thread), so there's probably hope that he'll eventually become a legit shot creator.

On a side note, I think Pat is going to have a great season this year. He's always been good in picking his spots, this year he'll be able to get so many open looks, and much easier. With Zach, Vuc, and DD, Pat can really pressure opponents playing off the ball. Lonzo and Caruso also will find him when he's open. I don't think we'll see much of Pat the shot creator, he's just not going to get much chance. If there's Pat Williams development slider like in video games, for next season I would set it like:

+20% defense
+10% offense

rather than

+10% defense
+20% offense

Because it's on defense where Pat's improvement can really make a difference on this team's overall performance this season.

[coldfish]

Pat was asked to be the pick and roll big man frequently in game 1. He really did a terrible job of it and was too lazy coming out of the screen.

Going forward, if we want him involved in the offense, here is his ticket. He isn't going to be an isolation scorer in high volume with Lavine, DDR, Vuc and Ball all handling the ball. Vucevic was the only PnR big man and it really hurt the offense. As bad as Pat was, Alize was worse.

This will be something to watch in game 2. If Pat moves well, Lavine and DDR will get him a ton of looks as we saw with Vucevic.

[DuckIII]

As my kids would say, Pat was buns.

One wonders what impact his shoulder strain had on his basically playing no offense after the first few minutes of the game and if it had an impact on his rebounding (I.e. a shoulder injury could hamper raising your arms up which is, uh, kinda important to rebounding).

But the problem Pat has is you can’t give him the benefit of the doubt after seeing his lack of fire all year last year.

I’ve got all kinds of rational explanations for Pat’s passiveness that are rooted in fact and can be used to explain or justify his situation. And they all might explain everything.

But he’s got to step up and provide some consistent aggression by December or it’s a really bad sign. If he were important enough for Shaq to give him a nickname it would be The Big Nap.

[sco]

Pat may become an allstar, but IMO, he's the wrong guy for this team because his timeline isn't going to have him being more than average this season. Couple that with his role being the 5th guy on this offense. If we can trade him for a very good guy who is down the learning curve, it might make sense. That said, the current situation is "workable" if we make him fight for minutes.

[The Force.]

People may have expected too much from him when it’s pretty obvious he’s a 3D role player at best. If he can hit open threes, play good defense, and rebound that will be enough for what the Bulls need. It’s unfortunate because another dynamic playmaker would’ve really boosted the team’s ceiling. At least he’s not a complete bust *shrugs*

[DuckIII]

Pat may become an allstar, but IMO, he's the wrong guy for this team because his timeline isn't going to have him being more than average this season. Couple that with his role being the 5th guy on this offense. If we can trade him for a very good guy who is down the learning curve, it might make sense. That said, the current situation is "workable" if we make him fight for minutes.

I’d trade him and Coby, for example, for a significant win now player. But I can’t imagine an injured Coby who proved he stinks as a point guard and a completely unproven Pat have that kind of juice in the market.

Other than that, I don’t agree about the timeline. I think AK is building on two lines and hedging bets. Which I know some fans hate (“pick a lane”) but I consider smart management unless you know you are a contender.

[MGB8]

Eh - I'm still not really concerned. Shoulder strain early on is very possibly going to impact going up for rebounds. Not concerned with the offensive passivity yet, because he didn't get much burn with the starters in pre-season - and even those guys, who did play together, clearly are still working on chemistry.

I think that the team offense - outside of defense-to-offense plus Zach and DDr doing what they do, Vuc doing what he's been doing (but hopefully the ball going in) - is very much going to be a work in progress for the first quarter of the season.

And that's going to impact Pat's offense more than most, because he's not in a "creator" role - he's in the same role as Javonte Green was in before, and that DJJ and Alize will be in as they get more burn.

[kodo]

There are moments of passiveness which have nothing to do with injuries or team chemistry that puzzle me the most.

One example was when Lavine grabbed a rebound and pushed the ball, getting well ahead of his man, we had a fast break. Patrick's man, Jerami, had to switch over to Lavine or give up a dunk. Patrick was consequently unguarded, and he didn't go hard at the rim. And he didn't fill out the corner 3, he kind of stayed in this weird mid range/long 2 area...and Lavine obviously didn't give him the ball. And enough time elapsed that Lavine's man got back into the picture and defended Patrick. I feel Javonte or Alize would have gone hard to the rim and gotten that layup and given us a fast break bucket.

At the very least, as a PF Patrick has to help out on boards. People don't mention Vuc grabbing 15 boards against the entire DET team like it was trivial, that take effort and energy and he also has to run every P&R on the other end since Patrick isn't a P&R player. And Vuc played 36 minutes, more than most centers in this league even the young ones. Vuc's 15 boards also don't count all the times he had to tip the rebound to a Bulls player, another Bull got the boxscore rebound but Vuc prevented the rebound from going to Detroit. He was responsible for at least 20 rebounds.

Maybe the solution is to get Patrick back at SF? It's more normal to just wait on the wings and space the floor as a 3, and we'll have another PF grabbing rebounds & helping Vuc with big man duties.

[Chi town]

What we need from him is OG Anunoby type of play. If he doesn’t show any consistent fire I’m all for trading him. I have a short fuse when it comes to players that have no motor.

[GoBlue72391]

As my kids would say, Pat was buns.

One wonders what impact his shoulder strain had on his basically playing no offense after the first few minutes of the game and if it had an impact on his rebounding (I.e. a shoulder injury could hamper raising your arms up which is, uh, kinda important to rebounding).

But the problem Pat has is you can’t give him the benefit of the doubt after seeing his lack of fire all year last year.

I’ve got all kinds of rational explanations for Pat’s passiveness that are rooted in fact and can be used to explain or justify his situation. And they all might explain everything.

But he’s got to step up and provide some consistent aggression by December or it’s a really bad sign. If he were important enough for Shaq to give him a nickname it would be The Big Nap.

How about "The Sleepwalker"?

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[The Force.]

He also seems hesitant to drive to the basket, opting instead for quick midrange pull-ups. A guy his size can easily body smaller guards and even forwards but you still need to have dexterity with drives, which he lacks. Not saying he can’t improve but typically these are skills that you at least see the preliminary stages of with rookies and sophomores.


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[panthermark]

I'm not sold on him...but maybe it is because of his draft position.
My big concern is that he is too passive ala Tony Snell and isn't a true PF. He is a 2nd year, passive "big" SF playing a bit out of position. It isn't that he will be a bad player....just that he isn't quite what is needed right now..

[GoBlue72391]

Pat may become an allstar, but IMO, he's the wrong guy for this team because his timeline isn't going to have him being more than average this season. Couple that with his role being the 5th guy on this offense. If we can trade him for a very good guy who is down the learning curve, it might make sense. That said, the current situation is "workable" if we make him fight for minutes.

I’d trade him and Coby, for example, for a significant win now player. But I can’t imagine an injured Coby who proved he stinks as a point guard and a completely unproven Pat have that kind of juice in the market.

Other than that, I don’t agree about the timeline. I think AK is building on two lines and hedging bets. Which I know some fans hate (“pick a lane”) but I consider smart management unless you know you are a contender.

All it takes is one team to believe he still has the potential of a 4th overall pick. I could see a team in need of talent taking a chance on him in return for a solid starter vet.

That's not to say I think we should panic trade him right now, but if he's not showing anything by the trade deadline then that may be a good time to start making some calls. I really think he's in the worst possible situation for his own development playing what is essentially the Keith Bogans role for us. It will be all too easy for him to fall back on his natural passivity when what he needs to do is step outside his comfort zone.

PWill makes Lauri look like he has the mamba mentality in comparison. That's not going to cut it, he has to play with more fire, but again I could see his very limited role just make that even more of an issue.

Sent from my SM-S115DL using RealGM Forums mobile app

[logical_art]

I'd bring him off the bench to force him to take charge more.

[DuckIII]

Pat may become an allstar, but IMO, he's the wrong guy for this team because his timeline isn't going to have him being more than average this season. Couple that with his role being the 5th guy on this offense. If we can trade him for a very good guy who is down the learning curve, it might make sense. That said, the current situation is "workable" if we make him fight for minutes.

I’d trade him and Coby, for example, for a significant win now player. But I can’t imagine an injured Coby who proved he stinks as a point guard and a completely unproven Pat have that kind of juice in the market.

Other than that, I don’t agree about the timeline. I think AK is building on two lines and hedging bets. Which I know some fans hate (“pick a lane”) but I consider smart management unless you know you are a contender.

All it takes is one team to believe he still has the potential of a 4th overall pick. I could see a team in need of talent taking a chance on him in return for a solid starter vet.

Thats the tricky part. Solid starter is not enough of a return to give up on his potential that quickly. The only way I trade him early is for the type of win now vet who gives us a real chance to win the East. I just can’t imagine with our depleted draft assets and the question marks with Pat that we have enough to make such a trade.

Which means you keep him.

[sco]

I’d trade him and Coby, for example, for a significant win now player. But I can’t imagine an injured Coby who proved he stinks as a point guard and a completely unproven Pat have that kind of juice in the market.

Other than that, I don’t agree about the timeline. I think AK is building on two lines and hedging bets. Which I know some fans hate (“pick a lane”) but I consider smart management unless you know you are a contender.

All it takes is one team to believe he still has the potential of a 4th overall pick. I could see a team in need of talent taking a chance on him in return for a solid starter vet.

Thats the tricky part. Solid starter is not enough of a return to give up on his potential that quickly. The only way I trade him early is for the type of win now vet who gives us a real chance to win the East. I just can’t imagine with our depleted draft assets and the question marks with Pat that we have enough to make such a trade.

Which means you keep him.

This is RealGM...potential is gone by 2nd week of rookie season.

[chefo]

My problem hasn't been with Pat, per say. I've written plenty that what the Bulls did with him and the rest of the roster last year was about as nonsensical as it comes. Pat seems to lack aggression in virtually every aspect of the game--shooting, creating for others, cutting, rotating on point (which for some odd reason he's regressed at), rebounding, and overall just motor.

He was the mold of what the new FO and very likely coach D wanted the roster to look like. 6'5-6'8 guys that can do it all and play with energy. Pat was granted darn near 30 min a game last year despite being a pretty big negative on the floor 3 out of 4 nights. It's one of these things that in theory makes sense (Pat has the build to be a Swiss army knife kind of player), but a player in that mode needs to be a hustler like Green or Caruso because you'd be giving up size at the big forward spot or quickness against smaller guys.

Pat's nowhere near a skilled or big enough of a ball player to sleepwalk through games and be a positive contributor on a regular basis. He's a thick 6'7 who's got great vertical game... but he doesn't use it, so his one above average athletic trait isn't being utilized. He doesn't use his strong base to bully smaller/weaker guys by cutting hard.

I know Lauri's not the hottest thing on this board, but let's use him as a comparison to another passive, floating guy we've had on the team. Dude could give you 20/7 per 36 just by being out on the floor. That's purely due to God-given attributes like height (7') and hand-eye coordination (shooting). The one time he got his head out of his posterior and was very aggressive, he looked like the second coming of Dirk. He ended up being a disappointment here and his career may still go nowhere, but the fact that Lauri was able to produce as much as he did, with the skill-set that he had (no go-to move of any kind) just shows you that if you're going to be a passive player, you'd better have some overwhelming physical advantage or another.

Pat is young, but he's not some young LeBron-like tank that goes 100 mph all game. On paper he should be MUCH better than what he's shown in his time here. He's got a sweet stroke. His 3-ball is accurate, if slow to get off. His elevation is excellent. He's a strong guy with a great base. He can get up and is a quick jumper. There's not reason why he should be a 9/4 guy in 30 minutes. I don't know what's not clicking between the ears, but just like Lauri, he may need a sports shrink more than a shooting coach.

[drosestruts]

To compare Williams to another recent Florida State forward in Scottie Barnes - Barnes is also the 5th option on Toronto, and will probably move to the bench once Paskal is back. Yet in his first game ever he got up 13 shots and grabbed 9 rebounds. It, by no means was a good game from Barnes, who only made 5 of those shots, but compared to Williams' 2-3 shooting and 1 rebound it shows a much different approach to the game.

You have to make an impact, somewhere. I know the box score doesn't capture everything or tell the whole story, but it's a part of the story, and in that part Williams is a ghost.

[coldfish]

My problem hasn't been with Pat, per say. I've written plenty that what the Bulls did with him and the rest of the roster last year was about as nonsensical as it comes. Pat seems to lack aggression in virtually every aspect of the game--shooting, creating for others, cutting, rotating on point (which for some odd reason he's regressed at), rebounding, and overall just motor.

He was the mold of what the new FO and very likely coach D wanted the roster to look like. 6'5-6'8 guys that can do it all and play with energy. Pat was granted darn near 30 min a game last year despite being a pretty big negative on the floor 3 out of 4 nights. It's one of these things that in theory makes sense (Pat has the build to be a Swiss army knife kind of player), but a player in that mode needs to be a hustler like Green or Caruso because you'd be giving up size at the big forward spot or quickness against smaller guys.

Pat's nowhere near a skilled or big enough of a ball player to sleepwalk through games and be a positive contributor on a regular basis. He's a thick 6'7 who's got great vertical game... but he doesn't use it, so his one above average athletic trait isn't being utilized. He doesn't use his strong base to bully smaller/weaker guys by cutting hard.

I know Lauri's not the hottest thing on this board, but let's use him as a comparison to another passive, floating guy we've had on the team. Dude could give you 20/7 per 36 just by being out on the floor. That's purely due to God-given attributes like height (7') and hand-eye coordination (shooting). The one time he got his head out of his posterior and was very aggressive, he looked like the second coming of Dirk. He ended up being a disappointment here and his career may still go nowhere, but the fact that Lauri was able to produce as much as he did, with the skill-set that he had (no go-to move of any kind) just shows you that if you're going to be a passive player, you'd better have some overwhelming physical advantage or another.

Pat is young, but he's not some young LeBron-like tank that goes 100 mph all game. On paper he should be MUCH better than what he's shown in his time here. He's got a sweet stroke. His 3-ball is accurate, if slow to get off. His elevation is excellent. He's a strong guy with a great base. He can get up and is a quick jumper. There's not reason why he should be a 9/4 guy in 30 minutes. I don't know what's not clicking between the ears, but just like Lauri, he may need a sports shrink more than a shooting coach.

When Thibodeau used to talk about Noah, he used the phrase "motor is a skill". He was right. I think that maybe you can develop it but its not something you just turn on when you choose.

Pat has been ultra low motor in college and as a rookie. His two games this year are just a continuation of that.

And yes, if Pat continues playing anything like what he is playing he will be a bigger disappointment than Lauri.

Personally, if he continues playing like this through November, I think he needs some tough love not entitlement minutes. Start Javonte or Caruso.

Qualifier: He is young. It is early. This is not a prediction. He might turn it on.

[eierluke]

Nature from time to time waists its talent.
Eddy Curry 2.0
In 4 years out of the league