Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[DuckIII]

I've said this in other threads over the years about young players and Bulls fans and I'll say it again. Bulls fans talk about wanting youth, high ceiling, high upside guys but damn do they not want to give those players time to develop.

I want Pat to show up and show out as much or more than anyone does. And I get frustrated by him like anyone else.

But he’s a 3 year project to even become an impact player. I said that all year last year and still believe it. It would be great if he gets there sooner but in his case it’s just not realistic for a multitude of reasons. Baby steps

You’d think fans of a team whose franchise player is Lavine would be a little more patient.

[NecessaryEvil]

I've said this in other threads over the years about young players and Bulls fans and I'll say it again. Bulls fans talk about wanting youth, high ceiling, high upside guys but damn do they not want to give those players time to develop.

Bulls fans are tired of picks and projects.

[coldfish]

I've said this in other threads over the years about young players and Bulls fans and I'll say it again. Bulls fans talk about wanting youth, high ceiling, high upside guys but damn do they not want to give those players time to develop.

Wait until you get a chance to watch Scottie Barnes on Monday.

There are exceptions to this rule but for the most part, if a player is going to go on to be very good, he shows significant signs of it really early. Not just flashes but true alpha personality stuff. They go on to improve from there but the foundation is there on day 1.

When you look around with all of the young players that the Bulls "failed" to develop, they didn't go on to do much in other situations. Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Crawford, Snell, etc. Recently it looks like Wendell, Lauri, Valentine and others are the same people they were here.

The Jimmy Butlers of the NBA that continuously develop from a low base are very rare. More often, the good players look more like Derrick Rose who hit the ground running and got better from there.

I sure hope that Pat goes the Jimmy Butler route because if Pat just gets to being an average player, the Bulls are contenders this year.

[the ultimates]

I've said this in other threads over the years about young players and Bulls fans and I'll say it again. Bulls fans talk about wanting youth, high ceiling, high upside guys but damn do they not want to give those players time to develop.

Bulls fans are tired of picks and projects.

So how the roster is going to be built? The Bulls aren't some major free agent destination yet. You said the fans are tired of picks and projects yet Garpax was derided for not taking projects. It seems like every player another team picks that is a project Bulls fans fawn over while being just as bad and uninspiring as people make Williams out to be.

[the ultimates]

I've said this in other threads over the years about young players and Bulls fans and I'll say it again. Bulls fans talk about wanting youth, high ceiling, high upside guys but damn do they not want to give those players time to develop.

Wait until you get a chance to watch Scottie Barnes on Monday.

There are exceptions to this rule but for the most part, if a player is going to go on to be very good, he shows significant signs of it really early. Not just flashes but true alpha personality stuff. They go on to improve from there but the foundation is there on day 1.

When you look around with all of the young players that the Bulls "failed" to develop, they didn't go on to do much in other situations. Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Crawford, Snell, etc. Recently it looks like Wendell, Lauri, Valentine and others are the same people they were here.

The Jimmy Butlers of the NBA that continuously develop from a low base are very rare. More often, the good players look more like Derrick Rose who hit the ground running and got better from there.

I sure hope that Pat goes the Jimmy Butler route because if Pat just gets to being an average player, the Bulls are contenders this year.

Let's take a look at the names you brought up. Curry didn't do anything, Chandler actually found his role as a defensive rim running big after he left the Bulls. The Bulls got one good season out of Wallace and fans were lamenting Chandler leaving and being productive somewhere else. Crawford became one of the best sixth men and bench scorers of his generation.

Neither Carter or Valentine were seen as projects. Both were seen as low-ceiling players that Garpax typically drafts. Even a guy like Mikal Bridges who would fit right in with what the Bulls are doing now was said to be unexciting with little upside.

[fleet]

Jimmy was Jimmy because he was homeless and adopted and somewhat mental as a result. Pat is a part time florist from a loving family.

[Dan Z]

I've said this in other threads over the years about young players and Bulls fans and I'll say it again. Bulls fans talk about wanting youth, high ceiling, high upside guys but damn do they not want to give those players time to develop.

Bulls fans are tired of picks and projects.

So how the roster is going to be built? The Bulls aren't some major free agent destination yet. You said the fans are tired of picks and projects yet Garpax was derided for not taking projects. It seems like every player another team picks that is a project Bulls fans fawn over while being just as bad and uninspiring as people make Williams out to be.

I don't know who Bulls fans wanted them to draft in 2020. Haliburton? Sure he had a good rookie year, but I think he probably maxes out at as a good solid player. He also doesn't really fit the team now that they have Ball and Caruso.

Obi? Deni? Bey?

I'm glad they took a chance on Patrick Williams.

[Lexluthor]

I wonder what Bulls management saw in him to waste a top 4 pick ?And the. Daniel Gafford for Troy Brown Jr was pretty bad as well

[kulaz3000]

I've said this in other threads over the years about young players and Bulls fans and I'll say it again. Bulls fans talk about wanting youth, high ceiling, high upside guys but damn do they not want to give those players time to develop.

I want Pat to show up and show out as much or more than anyone does. And I get frustrated by him like anyone else.

But he’s a 3 year project to even become an impact player. I said that all year last year and still believe it. It would be great if he gets there sooner but in his case it’s just not realistic for a multitude of reasons. Baby steps

You’d think fans of a team whose franchise player is Lavine would be a little more patient.

This is pretty much where I'm at.

It's really not fair to expect him to make a massive impact considering his role on the team, even more so this season when there are so many more impact veterans on the roster who have been around the league for so much longer. It's not a fair comparison to other rookies on much lesser talented teams, where they have the free reigns to play through mistakes.

That said, what I do agree with most peoples criticisms, is that I wish to see more exertion from him during games. That doesn't mean that he needs to force the issue, but to provide a little more energy and aggressiveness. It's a fine line though, because he is always going to be a low-mistakes type of player, who plays his role regardless of what it is.

You saw little snippets of that during summer league play, where he clearly knew he was the best player, and he was a lot more aggressive on the offensive end, and he looked really comfortable shouldering that load when he knew his role - so I don't think it's totally not within him to play a bigger role, but he clearly feels his role is to play defense, and get shots where they come in the current structure of the team, and I don't blame him.

I will say though, depending on how the team looks in about 2 seasons or so, we may not fully realize his full protentional on this roster, if we continue to build this team with better veteran players, his role make just continue to lessen, but then again, maybe he continues to progress enough, where his just gradually leap frogs other players in terms of hierarchy, which is the hope.

He is currently playing the Jimmy Butler role, where he has a clear role, of playing defense, and getting shots when it's there, and it may have to take an injury for him to step up, gain confidence and take that leap in the future. And I'll be watching closely for when that happens, because all great players, don't always come into a situation where they have the free reigns, but when they do get an opportunity to have a little more freedom, they take it and run, he needs to do that when that window opens for him, and it will at some point this season because injuries are going to happen and we will need him to step up.

I'm still willing to be patient with him for another 2 full seasons, but during that time, I need to start seeing a little incremental improvements in different areas of his game.

[HomoSapien]

You’d think fans of a team whose franchise player is Lavine would be a little more patient.

My perspective is a little different with Williams. With the additions of DeRozan and Vuc, our timeline has been accelerated. Being patient doesn't benefit the new direction of the franchise. We're likely a piece away from being serious contenders and Patrick Williams is our best trade chip to accomplish that.

I'm okay being patient if we strongly believe that Williams is going to be a star, but if his realistic potential is somewhere between Dorian Finney-Smith and Harrison Barnes, then I'd rather just find someone who can help us more now.

All that said, in an ideal world, the Blazer's pick + Derrick Jones Jr. nets us someone who can help now while allowing us to organically develop Williams at a pace and role that's better for both the team and him.

[kulaz3000]

You’d think fans of a team whose franchise player is Lavine would be a little more patient.

My perspective is a little different with Williams. With the additions of DeRozan and Vuc, our timeline has been accelerated. Being patient doesn't benefit the new direction of the franchise. We're likely a piece away from being serious contenders and Patrick Williams is our best trade chip to accomplish that.

I'm okay being patient if we strongly believe that Williams is going to be a star, but if his realistic potential is somewhere between Dorian Finney-Smith and Harrison Barnes, then I'd rather just find someone who can help us more now.

All that said, in an ideal world, the Blazer's pick + Derrick Jones Jr. nets us someone who can help now while allowing us to organically develop Williams at a pace and role that's better for both of us.

But what more do we need from him, with the current set up of this team? In terms of touches on the offensive end, Vuc, DeRozan and Zach are going to take the majority of the shots, and his primary role is to defend the best offensive player on the other team. And with that role, I'm not sure what type of statistical results we are expecting.

If he can eventually settle as a 10 and 7 player with really good defense, shooting a high percentage, and not making too many mistakes - I'd consider that an improvement and a perfect role for the current build of the team. Currently he isn't getting enough rebounds, and not enough shots, but he is not turning the ball over, and shooting a high percentage.

[Red8911]

I wonder what Bulls management saw in him to waste a top 4 pick ?And the. Daniel Gafford for Troy Brown Jr was pretty bad as well

P Will is talented and I’m guessing they really liked his size, strength and the ability to play defense. These are the type of forwards that are very useful. Now whether he becomes better who knows, but those are the reasons they drafted him.

On Gafford I’m pretty sure we all liked him but honestly his last year here he didn’t show much improvement. Carter was out with an injury for a while, Gafford started and was disappointing. That’s why they just moved on from him. That move actually helped Gaffords career, for whatever reason he played better in Washington.

[HomoSapien]

You’d think fans of a team whose franchise player is Lavine would be a little more patient.

My perspective is a little different with Williams. With the additions of DeRozan and Vuc, our timeline has been accelerated. Being patient doesn't benefit the new direction of the franchise. We're likely a piece away from being serious contenders and Patrick Williams is our best trade chip to accomplish that.

I'm okay being patient if we strongly believe that Williams is going to be a star, but if his realistic potential is somewhere between Dorian Finney-Smith and Harrison Barnes, then I'd rather just find someone who can help us more now.

All that said, in an ideal world, the Blazer's pick + Derrick Jones Jr. nets us someone who can help now while allowing us to organically develop Williams at a pace and role that's better for both of us.

But what more do we need from him, with the current set up of this team? In terms of touches on the offensive end, Vuc, DeRozan and Zach are going to take the majority of the shots, and his primary role is to defend the best offensive player on the other team. And with that role, I'm not sure what type of statistical results we are expecting.

If he can eventually settle as a 10 and 7 player with really good defense, shooting a high percentage, and not making too many mistakes - I'd consider that an improvement and a perfect role for the current build of the team. Currently he isn't getting enough rebounds, and not enough shots, but he is not turning the ball over, and shooting a high percentage.

Wait a minute, let's make one thing clear: we're not winning because of him we're winning in spite of him. He's not scoring at a good rate, he's barely grabbing any rebounds, and his defense is suspect. He's also not running the floor hard or providing any shot-blocking.

I reject the notion that our big three are eating up touches at his expense. Per 36, Williams is nearly dead last on the roster in shots per game among our rotation players (he's only ahead of Alize Johnson) and points per game (ahead of just Johnson and Troy Brown). Patrick's problem right now is the same that it's always been. He's not aggressive.

This team has some very obvious holes in our front-court. Our size is limited, we could use more athleticism, we don't have a guy who can really play the 4/5 spot, and although our defense has been great adding a shot-blocker upfront would be a huge addition.

Again, if we feel strongly that Williams is going to be a star great. Let's be patient. If he's going to max out at Harrison Barnes, let's just trade for a guy who can help now.

[coldfish]

I've said this in other threads over the years about young players and Bulls fans and I'll say it again. Bulls fans talk about wanting youth, high ceiling, high upside guys but damn do they not want to give those players time to develop.

Wait until you get a chance to watch Scottie Barnes on Monday.

There are exceptions to this rule but for the most part, if a player is going to go on to be very good, he shows significant signs of it really early. Not just flashes but true alpha personality stuff. They go on to improve from there but the foundation is there on day 1.

When you look around with all of the young players that the Bulls "failed" to develop, they didn't go on to do much in other situations. Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Crawford, Snell, etc. Recently it looks like Wendell, Lauri, Valentine and others are the same people they were here.

The Jimmy Butlers of the NBA that continuously develop from a low base are very rare. More often, the good players look more like Derrick Rose who hit the ground running and got better from there.

I sure hope that Pat goes the Jimmy Butler route because if Pat just gets to being an average player, the Bulls are contenders this year.

Let's take a look at the names you brought up. Curry didn't do anything, Chandler actually found his role as a defensive rim running big after he left the Bulls. The Bulls got one good season out of Wallace and fans were lamenting Chandler leaving and being productive somewhere else. Crawford became one of the best sixth men and bench scorers of his generation.

Neither Carter or Valentine were seen as projects. Both were seen as low-ceiling players that Garpax typically drafts. Even a guy like Mikal Bridges who would fit right in with what the Bulls are doing now was said to be unexciting with little upside.

Chandler and Crawford were functionally the same players later on that they were here. They just found themselves on better teams at times and got more notice for doing roughly the same thing.

There are no examples of young guys leaving Chicago and becoming significantly better players.

As much as people want to point at Jimmy Butler, the Tony Snells, Marquise Teagues, Eddy Currys, etc. who start off with issues and never really get past them are far more common.

[NecessaryEvil]

I've said this in other threads over the years about young players and Bulls fans and I'll say it again. Bulls fans talk about wanting youth, high ceiling, high upside guys but damn do they not want to give those players time to develop.

Bulls fans are tired of picks and projects.

So how the roster is going to be built? The Bulls aren't some major free agent destination yet. You said the fans are tired of picks and projects yet Garpax was derided for not taking projects. It seems like every player another team picks that is a project Bulls fans fawn over while being just as bad and uninspiring as people make Williams out to be.

Hey man, I hear you. It's just unfortunate when you wait every year for a player to blossom but it never happens. Coby still has time also IMO. I've never given up on Pat. I think he's going to be great but he's also a kid. I feel like we can afford to wait on him. Put him on the bench if need be. There is no pressure on him to be great now. Bulls have three star level talents.

I personally trust AK with the Williams pick but its up to Pat.

[kulaz3000]

My perspective is a little different with Williams. With the additions of DeRozan and Vuc, our timeline has been accelerated. Being patient doesn't benefit the new direction of the franchise. We're likely a piece away from being serious contenders and Patrick Williams is our best trade chip to accomplish that.

I'm okay being patient if we strongly believe that Williams is going to be a star, but if his realistic potential is somewhere between Dorian Finney-Smith and Harrison Barnes, then I'd rather just find someone who can help us more now.

All that said, in an ideal world, the Blazer's pick + Derrick Jones Jr. nets us someone who can help now while allowing us to organically develop Williams at a pace and role that's better for both of us.

But what more do we need from him, with the current set up of this team? In terms of touches on the offensive end, Vuc, DeRozan and Zach are going to take the majority of the shots, and his primary role is to defend the best offensive player on the other team. And with that role, I'm not sure what type of statistical results we are expecting.

If he can eventually settle as a 10 and 7 player with really good defense, shooting a high percentage, and not making too many mistakes - I'd consider that an improvement and a perfect role for the current build of the team. Currently he isn't getting enough rebounds, and not enough shots, but he is not turning the ball over, and shooting a high percentage.

Wait a minute, let's make one thing clear: we're not winning because of him we're winning in spite of him. He's not scoring at a good rate, he's barely grabbing any rebounds, and his defense is suspect. He's also not running the floor hard or providing any shot-blocking.

I reject the notion that our big three are eating up touches at his expense. Per 36, Williams is nearly dead last on the roster in shots per game among our rotation players (he's only ahead of Alize Johnson) and points per game (ahead of just Johnson and Troy Brown). Patrick's problem right now is the same that it's always been. He's not aggressive.

This team has some very obvious holes in our front-court. Our size is limited, we could use more athleticism, we don't have a guy who can really play the 4/5 spot, and although our defense has been great adding a shot-blocker upfront would be a huge addition.

Again, if we feel strongly that Williams is going to be a star great. Let's be patient. If he's going to max out at Harrison Barnes, let's just trade for a guy who can help now.

I disagree that his defense is suspect. Just because he doesn't get steals or blocks, does not mean he isn't a good defender, especially when he is tasked every game to defend the best offensive player on the other team, regardless of their position. After Grant got the better of him the first game against the Pistons, he basically locked him down the last game.

I agree that he needs to rebound better, and that has been a concern I had of him even as a rookie, though as the season went along he got better in that area, but he just needs to be a lot more aggressive on the boards than he has shown. And I think it's quite telling that Billy, who is unafraid to play a second round pick rookie, is still putting in Patrick in games at multiple positions through the game. I suspect that Billy sees the importance of having him on the court, because if he didn't, I suspect that he wouldn't - I just don't imagine he'd give as many entitlement minutes to Patrick if they were that, maybe in the 12 minute range, but not more than 25 minutes per game.

[coldfish]

You’d think fans of a team whose franchise player is Lavine would be a little more patient.

My perspective is a little different with Williams. With the additions of DeRozan and Vuc, our timeline has been accelerated. Being patient doesn't benefit the new direction of the franchise. We're likely a piece away from being serious contenders and Patrick Williams is our best trade chip to accomplish that.

I'm okay being patient if we strongly believe that Williams is going to be a star, but if his realistic potential is somewhere between Dorian Finney-Smith and Harrison Barnes, then I'd rather just find someone who can help us more now.

All that said, in an ideal world, the Blazer's pick + Derrick Jones Jr. nets us someone who can help now while allowing us to organically develop Williams at a pace and role that's better for both of us.

But what more do we need from him, with the current set up of this team? In terms of touches on the offensive end, Vuc, DeRozan and Zach are going to take the majority of the shots, and his primary role is to defend the best offensive player on the other team. And with that role, I'm not sure what type of statistical results we are expecting.

If he can eventually settle as a 10 and 7 player with really good defense, shooting a high percentage, and not making too many mistakes - I'd consider that an improvement and a perfect role for the current build of the team. Currently he isn't getting enough rebounds, and not enough shots, but he is not turning the ball over, and shooting a high percentage.

10 and 7 on a high percentage with really good defense would be fantastic.

He is currently at 7.7 and 3.0 and he is probably the 6th best defender behind Ball, Caruso, Lavine, Javonte and even Ayo. He has been fine on ball but off ball he might be the team's laziest defender which is why his blocks and steals are so low.

That 10 and 7 with really good defense bar is pretty far from where he is at.

Qualifier: Small sample size

[CaPiTanAK]

Time is still on the PWill project but it’s ticking. He needs a complete change in attitude, perspective, and aggression to be a somebody in this league quick and fast.

[HomoSapien]

My perspective is a little different with Williams. With the additions of DeRozan and Vuc, our timeline has been accelerated. Being patient doesn't benefit the new direction of the franchise. We're likely a piece away from being serious contenders and Patrick Williams is our best trade chip to accomplish that.

I'm okay being patient if we strongly believe that Williams is going to be a star, but if his realistic potential is somewhere between Dorian Finney-Smith and Harrison Barnes, then I'd rather just find someone who can help us more now.

All that said, in an ideal world, the Blazer's pick + Derrick Jones Jr. nets us someone who can help now while allowing us to organically develop Williams at a pace and role that's better for both of us.

But what more do we need from him, with the current set up of this team? In terms of touches on the offensive end, Vuc, DeRozan and Zach are going to take the majority of the shots, and his primary role is to defend the best offensive player on the other team. And with that role, I'm not sure what type of statistical results we are expecting.

If he can eventually settle as a 10 and 7 player with really good defense, shooting a high percentage, and not making too many mistakes - I'd consider that an improvement and a perfect role for the current build of the team. Currently he isn't getting enough rebounds, and not enough shots, but he is not turning the ball over, and shooting a high percentage.

10 and 7 on a high percentage with really good defense would be fantastic.

He is currently at 7.7 and 3.0 and he is probably the 6th best defender behind Ball, Caruso, Lavine, Javonte and even Ayo. He has been fine on ball but off ball he might be the team's laziest defender which is why his blocks and steals are so low.

That 10 and 7 with really good defense bar is pretty far from where he is at.

Qualifier: Small sample size

I'm sort of replying to both Kulaz and Coldfish here, but I'm obviously more with CF.

I think Patrick is getting the minutes he's getting simply because he's the only person on the roster that fits the mold of a modern PF and also fast-tracking his development is pretty crucial to this team's success.

I do agree that he played Grant well last game, but I think overall he's billed as a good defender because he looks like he should be one more than he actually is one. Williams takes our toughest matchup because we're trying to get him to learn from the ass whoopings. So far he hasn't progressed much, and there are some fair excuses (injuries, no training camps, etc) but I'm with Coldfish on this one. Most of the time, young players show you who they are early on even if it takes awhile for them to refine their skills. You can see it with Ayo. He's fearless, and when his game catches up with his personality he's got a real chance of being a useful player. Williams, on the other hand, plays scared. I'm less confident that he'll be able to work through that.

He made a quote early on about how not every player could be a star. He's come back since and made stronger/more confident comments, but I've never been able to shake that initial quote. It's sort of reminiscent of Jabari saying players don't get paid for playing defense. Williams' comments aren't nearly as bad, of course, but they're just as revealing. I also think Thad having to ask him if he wants to be great, sort of says a lot as well.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

My biggest fear is that Pat’s a low motor and/or slow twitch athlete. If either is true, let alone both, it’ll take a lot of skill development to compensate for it. Maybe an unreasonable amount.

I’m gonna give his conditioning time to round into shape, but at this stage I’m a doubter.