Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[kulaz3000]

I agree that he plays too uptight, fearing making mistakes, with a big contrast being Ayo who is absolutely fearless and doesn’t let mistakes phase him in the slightest.

I sensed a little more exertion and frustration from him the last game, which I take it as a sign that he knows he needs to play better, so at the very least you know he cares.

We definitely need to see more from him, but he may be one of those players who may take several years to get there eventually, which we may not be able to afford unfortunately.

[the ultimates]

Wait until you get a chance to watch Scottie Barnes on Monday.

There are exceptions to this rule but for the most part, if a player is going to go on to be very good, he shows significant signs of it really early. Not just flashes but true alpha personality stuff. They go on to improve from there but the foundation is there on day 1.

When you look around with all of the young players that the Bulls "failed" to develop, they didn't go on to do much in other situations. Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Crawford, Snell, etc. Recently it looks like Wendell, Lauri, Valentine and others are the same people they were here.

The Jimmy Butlers of the NBA that continuously develop from a low base are very rare. More often, the good players look more like Derrick Rose who hit the ground running and got better from there.

I sure hope that Pat goes the Jimmy Butler route because if Pat just gets to being an average player, the Bulls are contenders this year.

Let's take a look at the names you brought up. Curry didn't do anything, Chandler actually found his role as a defensive rim running big after he left the Bulls. The Bulls got one good season out of Wallace and fans were lamenting Chandler leaving and being productive somewhere else. Crawford became one of the best sixth men and bench scorers of his generation.

Neither Carter or Valentine were seen as projects. Both were seen as low-ceiling players that Garpax typically drafts. Even a guy like Mikal Bridges who would fit right in with what the Bulls are doing now was said to be unexciting with little upside.

Chandler and Crawford were functionally the same players later on that they were here. They just found themselves on better teams at times and got more notice for doing roughly the same thing.

There are no examples of young guys leaving Chicago and becoming significantly better players.

As much as people want to point at Jimmy Butler, the Tony Snells, Marquise Teagues, Eddy Currys, etc. who start off with issues and never really get past them are far more common.

Crawford and Chandler skillset-wise didn't become different when they left the Bulls but the production with those same skills was definitely better in other places. Chandler helped a team win a title made three all-defensive teams and made an all-nba third team. Crawford was three-time sixth man of year. So I think they became better players.

Nobody was saying get rid of Chandler and Crawford in their second years yet people want to do that for Williams. When you draft really young players, those high ceiling players it's not a steady ascent in development, there are peaks and valleys. Flashes of light and then nothing for stretches. People don't want to give Williams that kind of time.

[GoBlue72391]

Would you do PWill/DJJ for Grant
Detroit saves $, gets a 4 man prospect to play with CUnningham, Bey and Hayes and they lose more games now

Bulls get a PERFECT fit now, but the $ becomes an issue soon. Grant would give us someone with experience to throw at KD and Giannis

I think he would be an ideal fit at PF as a two-way player. I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

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[GoBlue72391]

Wait, what? Jerami Grant is an all-star on $20m. I don’t think Pat/DJJ or Coby gets entertained, and this is one move I would make all day if Troy Weaver was drunk and accepting calls.

Not an all-star and probably never will be, but he is a very good player and would fit fantastically here.

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[coldfish]

Let's take a look at the names you brought up. Curry didn't do anything, Chandler actually found his role as a defensive rim running big after he left the Bulls. The Bulls got one good season out of Wallace and fans were lamenting Chandler leaving and being productive somewhere else. Crawford became one of the best sixth men and bench scorers of his generation.

Neither Carter or Valentine were seen as projects. Both were seen as low-ceiling players that Garpax typically drafts. Even a guy like Mikal Bridges who would fit right in with what the Bulls are doing now was said to be unexciting with little upside.

Chandler and Crawford were functionally the same players later on that they were here. They just found themselves on better teams at times and got more notice for doing roughly the same thing.

There are no examples of young guys leaving Chicago and becoming significantly better players.

As much as people want to point at Jimmy Butler, the Tony Snells, Marquise Teagues, Eddy Currys, etc. who start off with issues and never really get past them are far more common.

Crawford and Chandler skillset-wise didn't become different when they left the Bulls but the production with those same skills was definitely better in other places. Chandler helped a team win a title made three all-defensive teams and made an all-nba third team. Crawford was three-time sixth man of year. So I think they became better players.

Nobody was saying get rid of Chandler and Crawford in their second years yet people want to do that for Williams. When you draft really young players, those high ceiling players it's not a steady ascent in development, there are peaks and valleys. Flashes of light and then nothing for stretches. People don't want to give Williams that kind of time.

In general when you draft young players its game after game of disappointment with flashes of something better. At first, fans are patient and assume that the flashes will become the standard . . . but they never do. At some point, fans and front offices give up on those young players and the vast majority of the time, they were right to do so.

If I were to create some arbitrary cut off line for rookie productivity and say "anyone less than this line will be a role player at best", I would be right the vast majority of the time. Good players show it early. Too many people focus on the outliers.

Again, I sure hope that Pat becomes a superstar or a good player. That would bode extremely well for Chicago. If the Bulls have the opportunity to trade Pat for a very good player right now I would do it in a heartbeat. I strongly suspect that is not the case.

[kulaz3000]

Wait, what? Jerami Grant is an all-star on $20m. I don’t think Pat/DJJ or Coby gets entertained, and this is one move I would make all day if Troy Weaver was drunk and accepting calls.

Not an all-star and probably never will be, but he is a very good player and would fit fantastically here.

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He wouldn't need to be a star on our team, just do what he does on offense and defense, and he would fit in perfectly with how our team plays now. Unlikely they would entertain any offers with the non-starters on our team though, unless we give up several picks.

[fleet]

yeah, But Grant doesn't get us over the top in the east. So...not sure it is worth doing. Might be smarter to raise the value of Pat and Coby first before we try to deal a package. Ive been watching the White Sox sell low on young players for a long time, and it has never worked. You're smart, you sell high.

[The Force.]

Jimmy was Jimmy because he was homeless and adopted and somewhat mental as a result. Pat is a part time florist from a loving family.

^This might be sig worthy


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[HomoSapien]

Jimmy was Jimmy because he was homeless and adopted and somewhat mental as a result. Pat is a part time florist from a loving family.

^ This is the post of the year.


Re: Grant, I love him as an option and have been suggesting him since last season. People are scared of him because they're not sure if his stats are fools gold and a result of being on a bad team. Even if that's the case, that's fine, because he's proven how impactful he can be as a role player so for what we need it's a win-win.

Jerami Grant is 27 and Cade Cunningham is 20. Their primes aren't going to align. If Weaver has a good opinion of Williams, then you could see how he could talk himself into a trade. PWill + Derick Jones Jr. works salary wise, and we've got a number of things we can add as a sweetener. If you ask me, the below team would be the most dangerous team in East:

C.Vucevic/Bradley/Simonovic
PF.Grant/Green/Johnson
SF. DeRozan/Brown
SG.LaVine/White/Ayo
PG.Ball/Caruso

[Axl Rose]

Jimmy was Jimmy because he was homeless and adopted and somewhat mental as a result. Pat is a part time florist from a loving family.

and Jimmy came in and was elite on defense. Pat hasn't shown any facets of the game he is even above average at.

[Butler4thewin]

Jimmy was Jimmy because he was homeless and adopted and somewhat mental as a result. Pat is a part time florist from a loving family.

^ This is the post of the year.


Re: Grant, I love him as an option and have been suggesting him since last season. People are scared of him because they're not sure if his stats are fools gold and a result of being on a bad team. Even if that's the case, that's fine, because he's proven how impactful he can be as a role player so for what we need it's a win-win.

Jerami Grant is 27 and Cade Cunningham is 20. Their primes aren't going to align. If Weaver has a good opinion of Williams, then you could see how he could talk himself into a trade. PWill + Derick Jones Jr. works salary wise, and we've got a number of things we can add as a sweetener. If you ask me, the below team would be the most dangerous team in East:

C.Vucevic/Bradley/Simonovic
PF.Grant/Green/Johnson
SF. DeRozan/Brown
SG.LaVine/White/Ayo
PG.Ball/Caruso

What makes grant good? He’s a lightweight at his spot and khawhi posts him up regularly in matchups wouldn’t pat be bigger next season if he keeps adding muscle ? Idk I just don’t know enough about him

[Jcool0]

Jimmy was Jimmy because he was homeless and adopted and somewhat mental as a result. Pat is a part time florist from a loving family.

^ This is the post of the year.


Re: Grant, I love him as an option and have been suggesting him since last season. People are scared of him because they're not sure if his stats are fools gold and a result of being on a bad team. Even if that's the case, that's fine, because he's proven how impactful he can be as a role player so for what we need it's a win-win.

Jerami Grant is 27 and Cade Cunningham is 20. Their primes aren't going to align. If Weaver has a good opinion of Williams, then you could see how he could talk himself into a trade. PWill + Derick Jones Jr. works salary wise, and we've got a number of things we can add as a sweetener. If you ask me, the below team would be the most dangerous team in East:

C.Vucevic/Bradley/Simonovic
PF.Grant/Green/Johnson
SF. DeRozan/Brown
SG.LaVine/White/Ayo
PG.Ball/Caruso

What makes grant good? He’s a lightweight at his spot and khawhi posts him up regularly in matchups wouldn’t pat be bigger next season if he keeps adding muscle ? Idk I just don’t know enough about him

He would most likely be a 14/4 guy on this team. Not sure it would be worth giving up what Detroit would be looking for.

[logical_art]

Grant has one high level season on a crappy team at 27. I'd rather roll the dice with P Will and his upside.

[HomoSapien]

What makes grant good? He’s a lightweight at his spot and khawhi posts him up regularly in matchups wouldn’t pat be bigger next season if he keeps adding muscle ? Idk I just don’t know enough about him

He's just a much better player, it's that simple. Better defender, more disruptive, higher volume shooter, has shown an ability to get to the line, has shown the ability to be a high-value role player on a good team, and a big scorer on a bad team. His 7'3" wingspan helps him cover a lot of ground, which is great for the way we play D.

Rolling the dice on Williams only makes sense if you're confident he's going to be a star. If you're not, you might as well find a guy whose timeline coincides with Zach, Vuc, and DeRozan.

Watch on YouTube

There's just no comparison on the defensive end, IMO. Grant's on a different planet than PWill.

[samwana]

patrick still thinks the game instead of playing like ayo does. as long as he keeps thinking and doesn't just go on instinct it will be difficult to him.
he doesn't show any emotion, he's kind of strange as if he doesn't belong here. he needs to just play, because he is good, he doesn't believe it so it seems and if that doesn't change, he'll never reach his potential.

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[DeseanPrince]

What makes grant good? He’s a lightweight at his spot and khawhi posts him up regularly in matchups wouldn’t pat be bigger next season if he keeps adding muscle ? Idk I just don’t know enough about him

He's just a much better player, it's that simple. Better defender, more disruptive, higher volume shooter, has shown an ability to get to the line, has shown the ability to be a high-value role player on a good team, and a big scorer on a bad team. His 7'3" wingspan helps him cover a lot of ground, which is great for the way we play D.

Rolling the dice on Williams only makes sense if you're confident he's going to be a star. If you're not, you might as well find a guy whose timeline coincides with Zach, Vuc, and DeRozan.

Watch on YouTube

There's just no comparison on the defensive end, IMO. Grant's on a different planet than PWill.

I agree. Imo Grant is Pats ceiling. Pat has a better shot but that’s literally it. Grants a better ball handler, passer, defender, more athletic, has a higher IQ and has a much better motor. Pat will take years to come close to what Grant is right now.


The reason it’s iffy is because he only has two years left and will be due a raise but we could pay him if he either let Vooch walk or resign him to a cheap deal. Demar would come off one year after that so we would only be deep in the luxury one year if Zach signs the max. Pat is also our insurance if this goes horribly wrong and Zach leaves but I have a hard time seeing Zach leave money on the table after being so under paid the last few seasons.


Worse case scenario we’d still have Vooch and Grant under one year deals we could flip and Demar for two more years we could flip as well or we could keep that team together, move Coby in as a starter and be a middle of the pack team for a few seasons. It’d suck but if Zach leaves we’re going to have to go through those options anyway, weather we keep Pat or not. I’m holding out on him for now but he’s sticking out badly right now, just to young, inexperienced and might just take to much time to get where he needs to be for this team to be more than a first round exit.

[Rowland Garrett]

When Perdue and Gill talk about PW sitting down with a coach to watch film what I wish they get some old film from the 70's and have him watch what Bob Love used to do. At the same size Love wasn't what you see in a PF today but he could post up and drive to the basket, there was no 3pt line so he worked the mid range game with a high release jumpshot and he always took the best offensive forward on the other team.

I think Rodman would be the one. Show how he anticipated what players were going to do, the angle of the shot, the seams he slipped in. That would be great right now. In the off season he should watch ever Rodman rebound and study.

PS. I too loved Butterbean. If he played in this era with the 3 point line, he'd be a top 10 guy at the least. He shot a ton of 3 pointers in his day that only counted 2. Nobody discouraged those shots either.

[Rowland Garrett]

We (many) underestimated how much a project that Pat represents. I now have unfortunately come around on his rebounding in that he lacks instincts and aggression to track them down. That doesn’t often get fixed if it can. I had posted earlier with coldfish how little feel he has in the PnR game. He has all the tools for all of it. IMO he has poor instincts for this game. Some folks say he has a poor motor, but to me it looks like he doesn’t process things very well on the court.

Nailed it.

He takes a second or more to react, makes him look lazy (low motor.) I don't know if that's true or not. But I do believe in time it will come. He needs a lot of 1 on 1 coaching so he reacts instead of thinks.

[Rowland Garrett]

T I don’t get why everyone sees him getting entitlement minutes.

I wouldn't say entitlement minutes. I would say that for the second year running he doesn't have true competition for his job. Last year he was our default SF. This year, his primary challenger at PF is, who, Alize Johnson? A #50 pick with 400 career NBA minutes.

I honestly HATE the talk of him getting "entitlement minutes." Yes they played him a lot last year. But last year was a learning and developmental year. Thus justified, not entitled.

This year BD and the Bulls are in win mode. They are NOT giving entitlement minutes. They have said pretty clearly they have a plan with PAW.

Vuc/DDR/Zack/Ball/Caruso is the best line-up, and finishing line-up.

I love the knowledge on this board so no disrespect meant. But I trust AK, BD, and all of management at this point. It's hard to get used to I understand, but all of you need to too as well, they know more than you, it's a new era.

[TeamMan]

We (many) underestimated how much a project that Pat represents. I now have unfortunately come around on his rebounding in that he lacks instincts and aggression to track them down. That doesn’t often get fixed if it can. I had posted earlier with coldfish how little feel he has in the PnR game. He has all the tools for all of it. IMO he has poor instincts for this game. Some folks say he has a poor motor, but to me it looks like he doesn’t process things very well on the court.

Nailed it.

He takes a second or more to react, makes him look lazy (low motor.) I don't know if that's true or not. But I do believe in time it will come. He needs a lot of 1 on 1 coaching so he reacts instead of thinks.

????????????

During the Summer League, he was the 1st option, and IMO the coaches pushed him to take over games. And he demonstrated that he has the ability to do it.

On this team he is the 5th option. So, he has a completely different role.

He needs to:

1) Play good defense for the PF position.

2) Rebound and keep his man off the boards.

3) Hit open shots when the ball comes to him and he's open.

4) If he has to put the ball on the floor, he should focus on the mid-range game, and shoot pull-up jumpers so that he doesn't leave himself out of position for getting back on defense.

And again IMO, he has the skill set to do all of these things without having to over extend himself.

However, I do believe that he has to get used to hitting open shots. Because his instinct is to put the ball on the floor and use his athleticism to drive to the basket. But that's not his role.