Nets v. Hornets | 10.24.2021 @ 4:00 PM on YES

[haosmoove]

Got back from the game and want to get this off my head.

Nash was terrible especially in the 4th quarter. Around the 7 minute mark when Harden committed 2 straight offensive fouls is when the Nets lost their chance to comeback.
1) Harden first off foul was a bad call and he was telling Nash to challenge it but nothing happened. There was actually about 5 secs AFTER the big screen showed slow motion replay and the crowd was chanting "challenge" yet Nash didn't act on it.

2) When Harden ran into the defender for his 5th foul, it was actually a legit call. Now we are stuck with his 5th foul and can't review the previous one. I will reiterate how bad the non-challenge was in a hindsight.

3) Now the next move is controversial. Nash took Harden out with 5 fouls which is textbook coaching. But in a game where we are down 8, we really can't afford to lose one of our top 2 offensive option for extended minutes. This is also a trust issue, Nash can't trust a high bball IQ guy like Harden to lay off his 6th? The end result was Harden missed the next 3+ minutes, by the time he checked back in Net were down double figures with 3 and half mins left to go. Nash should leave him in the game and let him play it through. If he fouls out, he fouls out. But if he doesn't, he gets to play all 7 remaining minutes. Otherwise benching him is guaranteed to have him miss half of the 7 minutes.

4) Killer lineup with KD at center to finish the game. I just don't get it, the point of a small lineup is to be better offensively to try to catch up. That lineup clearly didn't work as KD was still doing everything by himself. Offensively it wasn't a problem, but I can argue that it was solely working because of KD. Defensively, that lineup couldn't stop anything, and defense late was the reason we couldn't come back from the deficit. So either play a better defensive (bigger?) lineup and still have KD do everything which would be minimal loss on offense but vastly improve defense, or incorporate better plays with no center lineups where we move and get guys open shots for a better offense.

Anyways, these are my very subjective view of the end of the game. If my observations are accurate, I am hoping Nash can pick it up from here and not make the same mistakes.

[Prokorov]

Got back from the game and want to get this off my head.

Nash was terrible especially in the 4th quarter. Around the 7 minute mark when Harden committed 2 straight offensive fouls is when the Nets lost their chance to comeback.
1) Harden first off foul was a bad call and he was telling Nash to challenge it but nothing happened. There was actually about 5 secs AFTER the big screen showed slow motion replay and the crowd was chanting "challenge" yet Nash didn't act on it.
2) When Harden ran into the defender for his 5th foul, it was actually a legit call. Now we are stuck with his 5th foul and can't review the previous one. I will reiterate how bad the non-challenge was in a hindsight.
3) Now the next move is controversial. Nash took Harden out with 5 fouls which is textbook coaching. But in a game where we are down 8, we really can't afford to lose one of our top 2 offensive option for extended minutes. This is also a trust issue, Nash can't trust a high bball IQ guy like Harden to lay off his 6th? The end result was Harden missed the next 3+ minutes, by the time he checked back in Net were down double figures with 3 and half mins left to go. Nash should leave him in the game and let him play it through. If he fouls out, he fouls out. But if he doesn't, he gets to play all 7 remaining minutes. Otherwise benching him is guaranteed to have him miss half of the 7 minutes.
4) Killer lineup with KD at center to finish the game. I just don't get it, the point of a small lineup is to be better offensively to try to catch up. That lineup clearly didn't work as KD was still doing everything by himself. So I ask this question? Why bother? Just play a good defensive lineup with better size and have KD do everything himself on offense.

Anyways, these are my very subjective view of the end of the game. I am hoping this is just a bad game for Nash and not a regular thing.

im with you until your 3rd point... for me harden was yanked just as much for playing poorly as for his foul situaiton. he was killing us during that stretch. it made sense to make a switch.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I was at the game too.

Harden has been terrible. Tonight he was awful. A ton of iso ball and couldn't make anything.

Everyone else basically sucked too. Mills and Carter couldn't make a shot.

KD was incredible.

Harden needs to get back to normal. I know he will.

But the team always looked unprepared and has no idea what theyre doing. Nash has been the biggest problem. He needs to figure this out. Without D'Antoni.

[DarkXaero]

You’re right about collective failure , something isn’t right , only 4 players that stand out and hustle
Obviously KD =star
Patty -poor shooting night but hustle like a dog
BB - he never fails always gives 110%
LMA - limited due to age and health ,but he tried
All others is just a big POO POO

Need to clean up the turnovers and defense. Turnovers were especially an issue today. Hornets definitely had a couple guys stepping up big time out of nowhere in the 4th today (Ish Smith and Caleb Martin) so that's just unusual but the turnovers killed us throughout the game. Harden is especially at fault at that.

I thought the defense was outstanding the first 38-40 minutes. they got almost nothing that wasnt generated off turnovers (29 points off turnovers). We challenged shots, got steals/blocks/deflections/rebounded ok. Our offense was disgusstingly bad outside of KD.

we turned it over 17 times. we scored just 37 in the second half. there was like no sets at all. just guys standing and watching, which is fine when its KD and space. but that wasnt the case alot of the game or when hornets made their run. This was maybe the worst offensive game in the big 3 era when at least 2 guys played.

I disagree, they had a lot of drives to the basket in halfcourt sets and there wasn't enough help or resistance. Turnovers were a bigger issue for sure but there needs to be more resistance at the basket. LMA should have helped off his man more to contest shots at the rim.

[DarkXaero]

The amount of funds in Joe Harris bank account should be reduced every night he has less than 8-10 points.

What the hell is the team paying him for? What does he truly offer at this point?

And, why is Nash not held accountable for giving him minutes that he doesn’t deserve?

/vent over.

He offers elite high volume three point shooting and floor spacing. among 3 point shooters in his salary range, he is by far the best. The coaching staff doesnt help by keeping him basically stationary. most teams have their sniper coming off screens to force off ball switches and make the D move.

he is shooting 40% from three on 8 attempts a night. he is doing what he is paid to do. With the talent we have, he should be getting more open looks more consistently

Joe Harris has been horrible this season so far. Shooting 39% from 3 on 6 attempts per game, but only 37.9% FG% overall for 10 PPG. That's horrible efficiency. Given that his defense is horrible at the same time too, he has been unplayable level bad. Do not sugarcoat his start to the season so far, stats are not in your favor at all.

[ecuhus1981]

The amount of funds in Joe Harris bank account should be reduced every night he has less than 8-10 points.

What the hell is the team paying him for? What does he truly offer at this point?

And, why is Nash not held accountable for giving him minutes that he doesn’t deserve?

/vent over.

He offers elite high volume three point shooting and floor spacing. among 3 point shooters in his salary range, he is by far the best. The coaching staff doesnt help by keeping him basically stationary. most teams have their sniper coming off screens to force off ball switches and make the D move.

he is shooting 40% from three on 8 attempts a night. he is doing what he is paid to do. With the talent we have, he should be getting more open looks more consistently

Joe Harris has been horrible this season so far. Shooting 39% from 3 on 6 attempts per game, but only 37.9% FG% overall for 10 PPG. That's horrible efficiency. Given that his defense is horrible at the same time too, he has been unplayable level bad. Do not sugarcoat his start to the season so far, stats are not in your favor at all.

Small sample size so far this season, and yeah, the early returns are awful for Joe.

When he's not shooting well, his poor defense and lack of other contributions are really glaring. The common thread with his poor stretches in previous seasons is that we can never rely on him as a 3rd weapon. We really needed him to step into a higher-usage role, maybe 17/5/2/1/0 on 46/44/82 in 32mpg, or something like that. Instead, he shrinks in the big moments, or with bigger responsibility. Through 3 games (AGAIN, small sample size), he's pouring in 10/3/1/0/0 on 38/39/50.

Joe is allergic to the additional attention that a 3rd option receives, freakin' Patty Mills looks more comfortable facing good defenders. He Who Shall Not Be Named is getting the results he seeks, he wants to feel missed. Even if he returns by getting the vaccine or if NYC changes the law, I'll assume he's going to have another extended absence in the future. And another. And another. I don't think I'll ever trust HWSNBN again to stay committed to this team.

[Perseus1966]

Bucks fan,Harden out of shape at the end of second quarter he was very tired i eas sure he will have a heart attack.
LMA pentioner
Milsap pentioner
Claxton bad ,clumsy, slow ,like he doesnt care.

[NetsWorld]

I think Harris' confidence is gone to be honest and it all goes back to when we lost to the Bucks. KD is balling lights out right now but Harden seems to have his work cut out figuring out what to do as facilitator considering there's new faces on the team and they are not shooting and hitting the three like they did last year. I don't see Johnson, Carter, Bembry here come April. I expect Marks to make some trades to get us the necessary shooting.

if it was a confidence issue he wouldnt be making his threes.

If it were not a confidence issue, he would have shot more than 1-3 from three against the Hornets and shot 3-10 against Philly. A confident and good shooter knows most of his shots will fall in. Jeff Green was near automatic from that range last year; I think if Millsap sees more consistent playing time and they utilize him like Green last year, with his size advantage, it will help us a lot. Maybe Harris' shooting will get better in time but he seems out of rhythm and you don't feel like he's automatic anymore. Nets would shoot threes last year and they looked like they were going in right from when the ball left their hands, now they are a poor shooting team.

[Prokorov]

The amount of funds in Joe Harris bank account should be reduced every night he has less than 8-10 points.

What the hell is the team paying him for? What does he truly offer at this point?

And, why is Nash not held accountable for giving him minutes that he doesn’t deserve?

/vent over.

He offers elite high volume three point shooting and floor spacing. among 3 point shooters in his salary range, he is by far the best. The coaching staff doesnt help by keeping him basically stationary. most teams have their sniper coming off screens to force off ball switches and make the D move.

he is shooting 40% from three on 8 attempts a night. he is doing what he is paid to do. With the talent we have, he should be getting more open looks more consistently

Joe Harris has been horrible this season so far. Shooting 39% from 3 on 6 attempts per game, but only 37.9% FG% overall for 10 PPG. That's horrible efficiency. Given that his defense is horrible at the same time too, he has been unplayable level bad. Do not sugarcoat his start to the season so far, stats are not in your favor at all.

He has been far from awful. you want awful take a look at Shamets start to last year.

Also, you cant really put weight in FG% for a 3-point floor spacer. I mean, 70% of his attemps are from three, so naturally his FG% is going to be lower too when its early in the season and he is off to a slower start. Once his 2=pt FGs reach a larger sample, that will trend up.

I mean he has only taken 11 shots from within the ark.

[Prokorov]

He offers elite high volume three point shooting and floor spacing. among 3 point shooters in his salary range, he is by far the best. The coaching staff doesnt help by keeping him basically stationary. most teams have their sniper coming off screens to force off ball switches and make the D move.

he is shooting 40% from three on 8 attempts a night. he is doing what he is paid to do. With the talent we have, he should be getting more open looks more consistently

Joe Harris has been horrible this season so far. Shooting 39% from 3 on 6 attempts per game, but only 37.9% FG% overall for 10 PPG. That's horrible efficiency. Given that his defense is horrible at the same time too, he has been unplayable level bad. Do not sugarcoat his start to the season so far, stats are not in your favor at all.

Small sample size so far this season, and yeah, the early returns are awful for Joe.

When he's not shooting well, his poor defense and lack of other contributions are really glaring. The common thread with his poor stretches in previous seasons is that we can never rely on him as a 3rd weapon. We really needed him to step into a higher-usage role, maybe 17/5/2/1/0 on 46/44/82 in 32mpg, or something like that. Instead, he shrinks in the big moments, or with bigger responsibility. Through 3 games (AGAIN, small sample size), he's pouring in 10/3/1/0/0 on 38/39/50.

Joe is allergic to the additional attention that a 3rd option receives, freakin' Patty Mills looks more comfortable facing good defenders. He Who Shall Not Be Named is getting the results he seeks, he wants to feel missed. Even if he returns by getting the vaccine or if NYC changes the law, I'll assume he's going to have another extended absence in the future. And another. And another. I don't think I'll ever trust HWSNBN again to stay committed to this team.

Its hard for Joe to deal with alot of defensive attention if the coaching just has him sit on the wing or corner. it doent take much to defend that. you look how other teams use their shooters and move them around screens and go backdoor. it puts pressure on the defense just to deny that. We just sit guys on the outside and iso... which is fine to an extent, but we need movement to get other guys involved too... especiallt until harden rounds into form.

[Prokorov]

I think Harris' confidence is gone to be honest and it all goes back to when we lost to the Bucks. KD is balling lights out right now but Harden seems to have his work cut out figuring out what to do as facilitator considering there's new faces on the team and they are not shooting and hitting the three like they did last year. I don't see Johnson, Carter, Bembry here come April. I expect Marks to make some trades to get us the necessary shooting.

if it was a confidence issue he wouldnt be making his threes.

If it were not a confidence issue, he would have shot more than 1-3 from three against the Hornets and shot 3-10 against Philly. A confident and good shooter knows most of his shots will fall in. Jeff Green was near automatic from that range last year; I think if Millsap sees more consistent playing time and they utilize him like Green last year, with his size advantage, it will help us a lot. Maybe Harris' shooting will get better in time but he seems out of rhythm and you don't feel like he's automatic anymore. Nets would shoot threes last year and they looked like they were going in right from when the ball left their hands, now they are a poor shooting team.

Jeff Green who was "near automatic from that range last year" shot 37%

Harris is shooting 39%

Your claims dont add up to the reality. which is we are losing games and fans want to blame someone. Joe is doing exactly what he is paid to do. hit threes at a high clip. 39% when your "not on" is pretty damn good. as mentioned if you want to see what struggling looks like, look at shamets first month last year.

Joe is what he is. asking him to be more is a coaching issue not a player issue. you want more defense put in a defender. you want a guy who scores within the arc play a guy who scores within the arc. You want the games best role floor spacer, keep joe in.

Our biggest problem offensively is harden is not creating offense for his teammates. at least not last night. and when he does his passes are too often turnovers and not getting to the intended target. Claxton and Harris with both look alot better once harden is in game shape

[Hello Brooklyn]

Harden aside, the biggest disappointment to me so far has been Claxton.

I really thought he would take a big step this year. His rebounding has been sub par. His offense has been bad. And his defense has been inconsistent.

He looks nothing more than a backup for me as of now. I have much more faith in Griffin at this point. Or Aldirdge.

[Prokorov]

Harden aside, the biggest disappointment to me so far has been Claxton.

I really thought he would take a big step this year. His rebounding has been sub par. His offense has been bad. And his defense has been inconsistent.

He looks nothing more than a backup for me as of now. I have much more faith in Griffin at this point. Or Aldirdge.

I think Claxton will struggle for a while to be a good rebounder. he isnt big enough and in our scheme we ask him to guard the perimeter. cant switch to smalls and rebound unless you are enormous and make other fear your presence.

Offensively, he is 100% reliant on a PG. he is a strict lob finisher. a decent one. but until harden looks like the harden we know, its not going to be much from claxton. One area im disappointed is free throws, he cant be that awful from the line. 44% makes shaq look like rick barry. he has no excuse not to be 60-65% or better.

Defensively its early but i contribute most of his woes to playing PF on D with blake in a big lineup. Its alot different when your man screens someone else and you switch on a small vs. you being screened and having to fight through it. i thought last night while overall not great he played outstanding D. He had a great block on bridges and was switched on to lamelo/ish multiple times and looked good. Even the shots lamelo made where high arcing floaters with a high level of difficulty.

Defensive as long as he plays the 5 in a normal lineup instead of 2 bigs i think he is good.

Offensively he will always rely on the guard

he probably still is a backup, but a damn good 20-24 minute type backup

[ecuhus1981]

Joe Harris has been horrible this season so far. Shooting 39% from 3 on 6 attempts per game, but only 37.9% FG% overall for 10 PPG. That's horrible efficiency. Given that his defense is horrible at the same time too, he has been unplayable level bad. Do not sugarcoat his start to the season so far, stats are not in your favor at all.

Small sample size so far this season, and yeah, the early returns are awful for Joe.

When he's not shooting well, his poor defense and lack of other contributions are really glaring. The common thread with his poor stretches in previous seasons is that we can never rely on him as a 3rd weapon. We really needed him to step into a higher-usage role, maybe 17/5/2/1/0 on 46/44/82 in 32mpg, or something like that. Instead, he shrinks in the big moments, or with bigger responsibility. Through 3 games (AGAIN, small sample size), he's pouring in 10/3/1/0/0 on 38/39/50.

Joe is allergic to the additional attention that a 3rd option receives, freakin' Patty Mills looks more comfortable facing good defenders. He Who Shall Not Be Named is getting the results he seeks, he wants to feel missed. Even if he returns by getting the vaccine or if NYC changes the law, I'll assume he's going to have another extended absence in the future. And another. And another. I don't think I'll ever trust HWSNBN again to stay committed to this team.

Its hard for Joe to deal with alot of defensive attention if the coaching just has him sit on the wing or corner. it doent take much to defend that. you look how other teams use their shooters and move them around screens and go backdoor. it puts pressure on the defense just to deny that. We just sit guys on the outside and iso... which is fine to an extent, but we need movement to get other guys involved too... especiallt until harden rounds into form.

Very true. Other than the first play of each half, we don't often run action specifically to get Joe open on the move. Nash is going to have to improve, stop tossing out vague excuses or pinning the blame on his players. I give him credit for being a good VIBES coach. This mixture of subpar strategy and lack of accountability is going to ruin those good vibes sooner or later.

[DarkXaero]

He offers elite high volume three point shooting and floor spacing. among 3 point shooters in his salary range, he is by far the best. The coaching staff doesnt help by keeping him basically stationary. most teams have their sniper coming off screens to force off ball switches and make the D move.

he is shooting 40% from three on 8 attempts a night. he is doing what he is paid to do. With the talent we have, he should be getting more open looks more consistently

Joe Harris has been horrible this season so far. Shooting 39% from 3 on 6 attempts per game, but only 37.9% FG% overall for 10 PPG. That's horrible efficiency. Given that his defense is horrible at the same time too, he has been unplayable level bad. Do not sugarcoat his start to the season so far, stats are not in your favor at all.

He has been far from awful. you want awful take a look at Shamets start to last year.

Also, you cant really put weight in FG% for a 3-point floor spacer. I mean, 70% of his attemps are from three, so naturally his FG% is going to be lower too when its early in the season and he is off to a slower start. Once his 2=pt FGs reach a larger sample, that will trend up.

I mean he has only taken 11 shots from within the ark.

Joe Harris has been awful so far by every metric, stop it. This is your problem, you pick your side and you refuse to change your position, no matter how much evidence there is to refute said position. Joe's TS% is bad, his other advanced metrics are awful and he looks awful out there in eye test. I'm not super concerned with this start but to say that he has been fine, it's putting on some serious blinders.

[Prokorov]

Joe Harris has been horrible this season so far. Shooting 39% from 3 on 6 attempts per game, but only 37.9% FG% overall for 10 PPG. That's horrible efficiency. Given that his defense is horrible at the same time too, he has been unplayable level bad. Do not sugarcoat his start to the season so far, stats are not in your favor at all.

He has been far from awful. you want awful take a look at Shamets start to last year.

Also, you cant really put weight in FG% for a 3-point floor spacer. I mean, 70% of his attemps are from three, so naturally his FG% is going to be lower too when its early in the season and he is off to a slower start. Once his 2=pt FGs reach a larger sample, that will trend up.

I mean he has only taken 11 shots from within the ark.

Joe Harris has been awful so far by every metric, stop it. This is your problem, you pick your side and you refuse to change your position, no matter how much evidence there is to refute said position. Joe's TS% is bad, his other advanced metrics are awful and he looks awful out there in eye test. I'm not super concerned with this start but to say that he has been fine, it's putting on some serious blinders.

TS% is nothing something that holds value in super small samples. Especially for guys who dont take a ton of FTs or layups.

"every metic" is off, given the most important one relative to him, 3 point percentage, is quite good (39%). Eye test he has been fine. Again, if the guys who are supposed to create open shots for him arent creating open shots for him and the staff isnt going to design players to get him looks then this is going to be the result. He also has a ton of gravity, so its not just about his stats but the space he provides.

I see nothing awful to Joe's start. there is a bigger systemic problem in that our offense creators arent creating a ton of offense.

Joe is never going to be a lockdown defender or a guy who breaks you down off the dribble. he is a guy who its threes and attacks a close out. he has been the same guy he typically is there, only over this small sample, the opporunities have been scarce and thats more to do with nash/harden then joe.

[3pt_chucker]

1.Steve Nash's obsession with making Carter a thing needs to end ASAP. He was a bench player, who should only play if there is lot's of injuries or rest.

Carter has been one of our best players so far. he has given us fantastic minutes. he is our only 3 & D player. he needs to start. he should start.

If Carter has been "one of our best players so far", then we've been incredibly poor. He's only good defensively vs small guards. He's get mismatched easily in our switching D and he's way to small. Are there any good defensive metrics that match what you are saying?? All his stats are meh.

He's never avg'd more than 17 mins per game and suddenly he's an important play for us when he was effectively glued to the bench in PHX???

He's not trash just good Guard depth. None of his stats suggest otherwise.

Yes he's a decent on ball defender but he's a midget out there, so he can be easily mis-matched into being a liability. He's zero on offense. What does he truly bring??

he is an excellent 3 point shooter. far from a zero

An excellent 3 pt shooter based off what?

He's a career 38% on 2.6 attempts per game
This season (super small sample): 22% on 3 attempts per game
His best season was 2 yrs ago: 42.5% on 2.5 attempts per game

These are super underwhelming stats. He doesn't take enough 3's to say "excellent" shooter. Potentially maybe but so far he doesn't look great.

Beyond 3's he provides nothing. He's not good at passing, playmaking or rebounding.

[haosmoove]

Got back from the game and want to get this off my head.

Nash was terrible especially in the 4th quarter. Around the 7 minute mark when Harden committed 2 straight offensive fouls is when the Nets lost their chance to comeback.
1) Harden first off foul was a bad call and he was telling Nash to challenge it but nothing happened. There was actually about 5 secs AFTER the big screen showed slow motion replay and the crowd was chanting "challenge" yet Nash didn't act on it.
2) When Harden ran into the defender for his 5th foul, it was actually a legit call. Now we are stuck with his 5th foul and can't review the previous one. I will reiterate how bad the non-challenge was in a hindsight.
3) Now the next move is controversial. Nash took Harden out with 5 fouls which is textbook coaching. But in a game where we are down 8, we really can't afford to lose one of our top 2 offensive option for extended minutes. This is also a trust issue, Nash can't trust a high bball IQ guy like Harden to lay off his 6th? The end result was Harden missed the next 3+ minutes, by the time he checked back in Net were down double figures with 3 and half mins left to go. Nash should leave him in the game and let him play it through. If he fouls out, he fouls out. But if he doesn't, he gets to play all 7 remaining minutes. Otherwise benching him is guaranteed to have him miss half of the 7 minutes.
4) Killer lineup with KD at center to finish the game. I just don't get it, the point of a small lineup is to be better offensively to try to catch up. That lineup clearly didn't work as KD was still doing everything by himself. So I ask this question? Why bother? Just play a good defensive lineup with better size and have KD do everything himself on offense.

Anyways, these are my very subjective view of the end of the game. I am hoping this is just a bad game for Nash and not a regular thing.

im with you until your 3rd point... for me harden was yanked just as much for playing poorly as for his foul situaiton. he was killing us during that stretch. it made sense to make a switch.

Like I said, the 3rd point is controversial and most people would probably agree with Nash.

You are right that the players (Harden included) playing poorly had a lot to do with the loss. I probably made it sound like Nash was solely to blame, and that wasn't the case. He just didn't help the team with in game adjustments to overcome the deficit.