PG Thread: Oh no, we suck again!

[GONYK]

I say we still need to give Kemba 10-15 more games to prove beyond all doubt his career is over. He’s home and now he’s about to get put in a home.

We can try IQ to replace him but he doesn’t look promising lately, and McBride probably isn’t good either. Let’s hope John Wall gets bought out I guess

His shooting has actually been really good. When he's never been a 40% guy in his career. Its his distributing/breaking down the defense along with his lack of defense which is a concern.

He is shooting it well though so that is a plus but the other parts of his game probably are what they are. He's always been a horrid defender he just could be a main engine for an offense which made up for it...now that really isn't the case.

Its tough to be a 3rd/4th option in a lineup on offense and hurt the team on defense which he does.

I’m not concerned with defense from because it’s a expected weakness. But he’s supposed to be able to score points and he isn’t. The 3pt shooting percentage is encouraging but it’s not a high enough volume to make up for everything else. If he’s just going to be a 3rd or 4th option he’s useless. I figured he’d at least be able to drop 15-20ppg range if healthy, which he seems to be.

He doesn't really do anything. His offense is spoonfed to him, which is strange for a PG.

The question is whether he's trying to fit in within the flow of the offense or if he doesn't have enough bounce to create for himself anymore.

He should be operating in the midrange when things get stagnant.

[mpharris36]

I say we still need to give Kemba 10-15 more games to prove beyond all doubt his career is over. He’s home and now he’s about to get put in a home.

We can try IQ to replace him but he doesn’t look promising lately, and McBride probably isn’t good either. Let’s hope John Wall gets bought out I guess

His shooting has actually been really good. When he's never been a 40% guy in his career. Its his distributing/breaking down the defense along with his lack of defense which is a concern.

He is shooting it well though so that is a plus but the other parts of his game probably are what they are. He's always been a horrid defender he just could be a main engine for an offense which made up for it...now that really isn't the case.

Its tough to be a 3rd/4th option in a lineup on offense and hurt the team on defense which he does.

I’m not concerned with defense from because it’s a expected weakness. But he’s supposed to be able to score points and he isn’t. The 3pt shooting percentage is encouraging but it’s not a high enough volume to make up for everything else. If he’s just going to be a 3rd or 4th option he’s useless. I figured he’d at least be able to drop 15-20ppg range if healthy, which he seems to be.

Remember we signed him for 8 MM. He isn't a high priority. I didn't think he would come close to 15-20 ppg. Just on minutes alone Thibs trusts Rose way more down the stretch for Kemba to consistently get that type of production.

Randle/Fournier/RJ will all play more minutes get more shot attempts then Kemba. So I agree that with him being a 3rd/4th type option with the starters are we really recognizing his skill set or because he is going to be used sparingly his poor defense will outweigh what he gives us on the other end since he isn't a main focal point.

[mpharris36]

I get that, but why? We have more options now. You are expressing a preference for a different option than the one Thibs prefers, but I don't think the answer is to assemble a worse roster than you can just to take options away from Thibs.

Which is why I want to be intentional in separating questions of overall strategy from questions of this year's team.

I mean thibs did play Elfrid Payton all year. So he doesn't always make the right choice because of certain types of players he gives long leashes too. He's a great coach but sometimes giving him more options might not be the best. Because I believe he's a really good coach to get the most out of a roster.

I'm not comparing Burks to Elfrid in terms of talent just saying if we really consider some of these young pieces trades assets how will we find out with some of them with very limited roles and some with no roles at all. How can another team properly evaluate them?

I don't see many teams jumping down the door for burks at his contract though. Nearly every team has a burks. ORL has Terence Ross even bad teams have a similar type of guy. At most Burks is salary filler and if you traded him on your own you might get back a similar contract and maybe a 2nd round pick depending on if you getting a slight decrease in talent in return.

Noel is a different story because bigs get injured and someone might value rim protection.

[GONYK]

I get that, but why? We have more options now. You are expressing a preference for a different option than the one Thibs prefers, but I don't think the answer is to assemble a worse roster than you can just to take options away from Thibs.

Which is why I want to be intentional in separating questions of overall strategy from questions of this year's team.

I mean thibs did play Elfrid Payton all year. So he doesn't always make the right choice because of certain types of players he gives long leashes too. He's a great coach but sometimes giving him more options might not be the best. Because I believe he's a really good coach to get the most out of a roster.

Bottom line is that he got us into the playoffs with HC advantage when everyone thought we would be a bottom 5 team. I think we can all nitpick at certain parts of his methods, and those nits would be valid, but his body of work gives him a lot of leeway and trust.

You give him every horse you can and let him do his thing, because the strategy calls for as much winning as possible.

I'm not comparing Burks to Elfrid in terms of talent just saying if we really consider some of these young pieces trades assets how will we find out with some of them with very limited roles and some with no roles at all. How can another team properly evaluate them?

I don't think we look at them as trade assets. I think we look at them as the depth left over once we make our big trade. Their salaries are too small to build any trades around them.

I don't see many teams jumping down the door for burks at his contract though. Nearly every team has a burks. ORL has Terence Ross even bad teams have a similar type of guy. At most Burks is salary filler and if you traded him on your own you might get back a similar contract and maybe a 2nd round pick depending on if you getting a slight decrease in talent in return.

Noel is a different story because bigs get injured and someone might value rim protection.

Nobody is trading for any of our pieces in isolation. We probably wouldn't even bother to trade them in isolation. That's not what they were signed for.

They were signed to be part of large multi-player deals

[Reign23]

lol @ you guys **** on RJ. after preseason and game 1 he was the next star and now after two bad games he is a bust? smh hope he turns it around on tuesday.

nobody said he’s a bust. but it’s pretty obvious he’s not a future star.

i disagree. I think he will be an all star. I really do

[Reign23]

it’s gonna be impossible to acquire a first option player without giving up almost all of our assets including RJ. so I would look at some cheaper second option players. I keep saying this but I think CJ McCollum could be a nice get on the low.

I am with you. but what would the blazers want to actually improve. not talking picks, obi and so on.

[mpharris36]

Nobody is trading for any of our pieces in isolation. We probably wouldn't even bother to trade them in isolation. That's not what they were signed for.

They were signed to be part of large multi-player deals

so you believe they are just waiting to pull the trigger on an

RJ + a ton of draft picks plus salary filler (burks/noel). Similar to what LAC did with SGA + all the draft picks for PG13?

[GONYK]

I mean thibs did play Elfrid Payton all year. So he doesn't always make the right choice because of certain types of players he gives long leashes too. He's a great coach but sometimes giving him more options might not be the best. Because I believe he's a really good coach to get the most out of a roster.

Bottom line is that he got us into the playoffs with HC advantage when everyone thought we would be a bottom 5 team. I think we can all nitpick at certain parts of his methods, and those nits would be valid, but his body of work gives him a lot of leeway and trust.

You give him every horse you can and let him do his thing, because the strategy calls for as much winning as possible.

I'm not comparing Burks to Elfrid in terms of talent just saying if we really consider some of these young pieces trades assets how will we find out with some of them with very limited roles and some with no roles at all. How can another team properly evaluate them?

I don't think we look at them as trade assets. I think we look at them as the depth left over once we make our big trade. Their salaries are too small to build any trades around them.

I don't see many teams jumping down the door for burks at his contract though. Nearly every team has a burks. ORL has Terence Ross even bad teams have a similar type of guy. At most Burks is salary filler and if you traded him on your own you might get back a similar contract and maybe a 2nd round pick depending on if you getting a slight decrease in talent in return.

Noel is a different story because bigs get injured and someone might value rim protection.

Nobody is trading for any of our pieces in isolation. We probably wouldn't even bother to trade them in isolation. That's not what they were signed for.

They were signed to be part of large multi-player deals

so you believe they are just waiting to pull the trigger on an

RJ + a ton of draft picks plus salary filler (burks/noel). Similar to what LAC did with SGA + all the draft picks for PG13?

Something along those lines for sure

[mpharris36]

Bottom line is that he got us into the playoffs with HC advantage when everyone thought we would be a bottom 5 team. I think we can all nitpick at certain parts of his methods, and those nits would be valid, but his body of work gives him a lot of leeway and trust.

You give him every horse you can and let him do his thing, because the strategy calls for as much winning as possible.

Agree, thibs did squeeze a lot out of that unit.

But it wasn't until we acquired Derrick Rose did we become a legit playoff team in a shortened season. We were 11-15 before we acquired him.

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Also not to downplay thibs individual improvement on the season but was Julius Randles improvement happened with any other coach as well or are we giving thibs all the credit for unlocking Randle?

Not trying to downplay his coaching at all that isn't my point just trying to get a sense of what you weight players importance vs a coach.

[3toheadmelo]

lol @ you guys **** on RJ. after preseason and game 1 he was the next star and now after two bad games he is a bust? smh hope he turns it around on tuesday.

nobody said he’s a bust. but it’s pretty obvious he’s not a future star.

i disagree. I think he will be an all star. I really do

i don't see it. if you can't create your own shot it's pretty much impossible to be an all star

[3toheadmelo]

it’s gonna be impossible to acquire a first option player without giving up almost all of our assets including RJ. so I would look at some cheaper second option players. I keep saying this but I think CJ McCollum could be a nice get on the low.

I am with you. but what would the blazers want to actually improve. not talking picks, obi and so on.

maybe a combination of Fournier, Burks, Noel/Gibson can get the job done

[GONYK]

Bottom line is that he got us into the playoffs with HC advantage when everyone thought we would be a bottom 5 team. I think we can all nitpick at certain parts of his methods, and those nits would be valid, but his body of work gives him a lot of leeway and trust.

You give him every horse you can and let him do his thing, because the strategy calls for as much winning as possible.

Agree, thibs did squeeze the a lot out of that unit.

But it wasn't until we acquired Derrick Rose did we become a legit playoff team in a shortened season. We were 11-15 before we acquired him.

Read on Twitter

Also not to downplay thibs individual improvement on the season but was Julius Randles improvement happened with any other coach as well or are we giving thibs all the credit for unlocking Randle?

Not trying to downplay his coaching at all that isn't my point just trying to get a sense of what you weight players importance vs a coach.

In general, I think players are eminently more important than the coach.

I also think there are 10 coaches in the league that make a real difference. 5 can make your team better, 5 can make your team worse. The rest don't matter. Thibs is one of the 5 that can make you better.

But that's neither here nor there in the context of my POV in this discussion though. I'm just saying that if we're the FO, winning as many games as possible supersedes developing Grimes and McBride in games, or making sure IQ still gets to play even when he's working through struggles.

I don't see the benefit of restricting the tools Thibs has at his disposal to win games. Right now, the goal is to win, win, and win some more until a star comes.

[G_K_F]

Maybe DeAron Fox can be had if the Kings suck again this year.

[mpharris36]

so you believe they are just waiting to pull the trigger on an

RJ + a ton of draft picks plus salary filler (burks/noel). Similar to what LAC did with SGA + all the draft picks for PG13?

Something along those lines for sure

Got it. My point is maybe if we developed Obi or IQ or even one of Grimes/McBride into bigger roles maybe you can keep RJ. But right now the only one a team probably sees as a headliner for a deal is RJ (that might be iffy too). Like you said the vets are just salary filler they aren't moving a trade one way or the other.

If the belief is Obi/IQ/Grimes/McBride aren't seen as valuable trade chips then the idea we are drafting well probably isn't a forgone conclusion.

As an example Bane and Melton from Memphis are probably pretty sought after pieces. Maybe not headlining a trade but they are perceived as positive assets in a trade no?

What Burks value compared to say a Grimes or IQ getting significantly more minutes? I know its tough to put a wins/losses number but I don't see it more than a game or so. Not saying Burks isn't a better player right now but over the course of the season maybe someone else separates themselves with more minutes. If they are completely blocked we will never really know.

[GONYK]

so you believe they are just waiting to pull the trigger on an

RJ + a ton of draft picks plus salary filler (burks/noel). Similar to what LAC did with SGA + all the draft picks for PG13?

Something along those lines for sure

Got it. My point is maybe if we developed Obi or IQ or even one of Grimes/McBride into bigger roles maybe you can keep RJ. But right now the only one a team probably sees as a headliner for a deal is RJ (that might be iffy too). Like you said the vets are just salary filler they aren't moving a trade one way or the other.

If the belief is Obi/IQ/Grimes/McBride aren't seen as valuable trade chips then the idea we are drafting well probably isn't a forgone conclusion.

As an example Bane and Melton from Memphis are probably pretty sought after pieces. Maybe not headlining a trade but they are perceived as positive assets in a trade no?

What Burks value compared to say a Grimes or IQ getting significantly more minutes? I know its tough to put a wins/losses number but I don't see it more than a game or so. Not saying Burks isn't a better player right now but over the course of the season maybe someone else separates themselves with more minutes. If they are completely blocked we will never really know.

I understand, but I think that discounts the possibility that their value could also go down. Once again, if they are going to be breakout stars, they will find the floor, because all Thibs wants to do is win. I don't think he has vet priority.

I also don't think Bane or Melton will ever be the difference between a large deal getting done or not done. Our young guys probably fall in the same category.

By the time a star is about to be traded, a lot of die has been cast. It's not going to be about the role players moved.

[mpharris36]

Something along those lines for sure

Got it. My point is maybe if we developed Obi or IQ or even one of Grimes/McBride into bigger roles maybe you can keep RJ. But right now the only one a team probably sees as a headliner for a deal is RJ (that might be iffy too). Like you said the vets are just salary filler they aren't moving a trade one way or the other.

If the belief is Obi/IQ/Grimes/McBride aren't seen as valuable trade chips then the idea we are drafting well probably isn't a forgone conclusion.

As an example Bane and Melton from Memphis are probably pretty sought after pieces. Maybe not headlining a trade but they are perceived as positive assets in a trade no?

What Burks value compared to say a Grimes or IQ getting significantly more minutes? I know its tough to put a wins/losses number but I don't see it more than a game or so. Not saying Burks isn't a better player right now but over the course of the season maybe someone else separates themselves with more minutes. If they are completely blocked we will never really know.

I understand, but I think that discounts the possibility that their value could also go down. Once again, if they are going to be breakout stars, they will find the floor, because all Thibs wants to do is win. I don't think he has vet priority.

I also don't think Bane or Melton will ever be the difference between a large deal getting done or not done. Our young guys probably fall in the same category.

By the time a star is about to be traded, a lot of die has been cast. It's not going to be about the role players moved.

I see your point. But maybe with Bane or Melton avg nearly 20 ppg this year (yes I know its early). But maybe they swing value if they continue there outstanding production.

I just don't see how someone can showcase that level of talent in practice.

For example Bane had a solid rookie year and by doing so they opened up a starters role for him.

On the other end IQ had a solid rookie year and we essentially blocked him from expanding his role in the offense (if anything we even made him less valuable).

I guess its being nitpicky but I am a big believer you build your depth with cheap young drafted players and build them up that way. Not by just signing already proven vets. Not that I have a specific issue with the roster construction I just think it limits our mobility in trusting our young guys (outside of RJ) into bigger roles.

[HerSports85]

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[3toheadmelo]

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he needs to do better. last night he had a DFG% of 60% which is atrocious

[DaGawd]

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I low key wish he said his offense lol

[GONYK]

Got it. My point is maybe if we developed Obi or IQ or even one of Grimes/McBride into bigger roles maybe you can keep RJ. But right now the only one a team probably sees as a headliner for a deal is RJ (that might be iffy too). Like you said the vets are just salary filler they aren't moving a trade one way or the other.

If the belief is Obi/IQ/Grimes/McBride aren't seen as valuable trade chips then the idea we are drafting well probably isn't a forgone conclusion.

As an example Bane and Melton from Memphis are probably pretty sought after pieces. Maybe not headlining a trade but they are perceived as positive assets in a trade no?

What Burks value compared to say a Grimes or IQ getting significantly more minutes? I know its tough to put a wins/losses number but I don't see it more than a game or so. Not saying Burks isn't a better player right now but over the course of the season maybe someone else separates themselves with more minutes. If they are completely blocked we will never really know.

I understand, but I think that discounts the possibility that their value could also go down. Once again, if they are going to be breakout stars, they will find the floor, because all Thibs wants to do is win. I don't think he has vet priority.

I also don't think Bane or Melton will ever be the difference between a large deal getting done or not done. Our young guys probably fall in the same category.

By the time a star is about to be traded, a lot of die has been cast. It's not going to be about the role players moved.

I see your point. But maybe with Bane or Melton avg nearly 20 ppg this year (yes I know its early). But maybe they swing value if they continue there outstanding production.

I just don't see how someone can showcase that level of talent in practice.

For example Bane had a solid rookie year and by doing so they opened up a starters role for him.

On the other end IQ had a solid rookie year and we essentially blocked him from expanding his role in the offense (if anything we even made him less valuable).

I guess its being nitpicky but I am a big believer you build your depth with cheap young drafted players and build them up that way. Not by just signing already proven vets. Not that I have a specific issue with the roster construction I just think it limits our mobility in trusting our young guys (outside of RJ) into bigger roles.

I think it's a little early on every front to know what everyone's role will be for the rest of the season, but I don't disagree with your point.

All I'll say is that Memphis has different priorities than us, because nobody wants to play in Memphis. Even if their young players pop, no star is going to opt to go there. Same with OKC, Sacto and probably 20 other teams. They have incentive to lean into development, because that is their only avenue for talent.

The Knicks have a different calculus on that. It remains to be seen if their strategy pays off.