[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan

[Djoker]

Yeah, and might point is that creation matters but overall playmaking value between them is vast, which is quoted PlayVal. I was just noting how you bought into Taylor's creation estimates numbers, but you don't seem to acknowledge Taylor's playmaking value metric that suggest there is a significant difference.

I clearly just provided a littany of stats that suggest that Lebron with the ball in his hands can exert more offensive impact than Jordan ever could. If you don't agree, that is fine, but I know I didn't just spend hours getting that data together for it to be rejected as nonesense with no backing. And yeah you can interpret the numbers however you would like. On philosophy, Ben Taylor said he would take Lebron with a group of average players around him in order to lead an offense to great heights over Jordan. How Lebron gels with higher level talent is what makes Taylor put Jordan higher than Lebron offensively. I value floor-raising more than Taylor, which is a large part of why I think the case for LBJ over MJ becomes stronger. Taylor also puts Steph above Jordan offensively, but I have yet to see you go around on this forum proclaiming Steph to be the offensive GOAT...you can interpret the numbers differently from certain people is my point.

I don't agree with Ben Taylor on everything. Far from it... I stated that about his offensive tiers because you and another poster tried to paint my view that Jordan > Lebron offensively by an entire tier as somehow outlandish. Then it turns out Ben Taylor thinks the same.

I didn't reject any of your numbers. I also posted even more numbers that supported my viewpoint on Jordan's total impact being greater. You called the RAPM data unreliable, dismissed RPM, dismissed WAR because Jordan played more games (even though Jordan also dominated RAPTOR itself with seven of the top 10 between him and Lebron), dismissed 3-year PIPM/AuPM/BPM that Taylor posted because it's a multi-year sample etc.

i dont remember it perfectly but i think taylor explained he took away points from lebron because of lack of portability (which i disagree with since it feels like a theorical/aesthetical punishment) and that was a bit part of why he ranked jordan peak a bit ahead

he also said that lebron defense was "slightly mpre impressive" so it doesnt seem like he has jordan as a much better offensive player with defense closing the gap

For his offensive CORP Ben assigned markedly higher values to Jordan on offense. My point was about offense. Taylor has Jordan a tier higher on offense than he does Lebron.

[No-more-rings]

To me this thread is sort of full of bias and agenda on both sides. Instead of meaningful discussion there seems to be a lot of bickering over who had better numbers and impact numbers.

I didn’t read every page and certainly not every post here, but one thing i saw that I think was a fair point was Lebron coasting a lot during regular seasons after his 4th mvp I mean it’s not a coincidence he never won another one after that. He has better longevity than Jordan regardless but it’s still something we can’t just blantantly disregard when discussing Lebron’s postseason performances from like 2014 on. There’s no debate about their passing abilities, just like I don’t think there’s any real debate about their scoring especially when you consider how much the league has changed over the years. I see Lebron as the better defender, though I think he often gets a bit too much credit for his team defenses.

1. 91 Jordan
2. 90 Jordan
3. 12 Lebron
4. 09 Lebron
5. 89 Jordan
6. 88 Jordan
7. 13 Lebron
8. 10 Lebron
9. 92 Jordan
10. 17 Lebron
11. 16 Lebron
12. 93 Jordan

90 and 91 Jordan are hard to top for me. This is him at his near athletic peak, perfection of offense with no exploitable flaws, while also maintaining peak or near peak motor on defense through the regular season and playoffs. 09 and 12 Lebron are the closest to that but it’s hard for me to ignore some underperformances in seasons around those.

[Narigo]

1.91 Jordan
2.13 LeBron
3.12 LeBron
4.88 Jordan
5.89 Jordan
6.09 LeBron
7.90 Jordan
8.92 Jordan
9.93 Jordan
10.96 Jordan
11.10 LeBron
12.14 LeBron

HM: 16 LeBron, 17 LeBron, 97 Jordan

[Gregoire]

Great topic!
Very interesting comparison, only MJ vs Shaq, MJ vs Kareem and Lebron vs Shaq from the remaining debates could compete IMO!
Interesting to see
Benja, His Dudeness, O_6, sansterre, bidofo lists...

[LukaTheGOAT]

I don't really follow his stuff so I don't know how he applies it but the concept makes sense to me and should be a point of consideration, especially in the case of Lebron where we can point to so many examples where his lack of portability arguably hurt his teams. I still don't know why Cavs didn't make a better effort to play more through Love who was an incredible offensive hub in Minnesota. If Lebron really was the defender you guys claim he was he could've played a more central role in Cavs defense to help shore up that weakness. Instead, pretty much everything ran through Lebron on offense so there was no identity when he wasn't on the floor and their defense sucked because he had to pick his spots.

As an exercise, try making the case that Steph's portability as an on ball / off ball player doesn't add significant value to Warriors offense.

I'm not sure where you are getting this narrative from. The Cavs were extremely effective at integrating Kevin Love into the LeBron offense. They produced all-time level offensive results. Why would the Cavs give Kevin Love a role like he had in Minnesota if it would make them less successful on offense? That makes no sense at all. Not to mention, Kevin Love was not the same player in Cleveland that he was in Minnesota. He lost a ton of weight in Cleveland so he couldn't play the same style as he did in Minnesota.

The results with LeBron and Love on the court were at all-time levels.

LeBron + Love on the court:

2015: RS 115.9, PS 118.9
2016: RS 116.1, PS 121.1
2017: RS 119.8, PS 123.5
2018: RS 114.8, PS 111.9

LeBron+Kyrie+Love:
2015: RS 116.7, PS 118.6
2016: RS 114.8, PS 122.2
2017: RS 120.4, PS 123.2

I don't know how anyone can look at those numbers and try to make a case that LeBron has bad portability or that Kevin Love should have received the ball more.

I just thought I should add that some people believe Lebron has gotten more portable throughout his career due to improved scoring and passing. For instance, Ben Taylor rates 09-12 Lebron has a -2 in port, 13-15 Lebron as a -1, and 16 to present Lebron as a 0 in portability. On the other hand, Ben Taylor believes 89 Jordan to 98 Jordan is a 0 in portability. So basically, Taylor believes Lebron had negative portability during his peak years, while Jordan had neutral portability. Just thought, I should add this in.

[LukaTheGOAT]

because the way i understand his portability point is in the sense that he says

"ok this player (lets say bird) played a +10 impact and this other (lets say magic) also had a +10 impact" he then says

"ok, both were equally valuable in their respective situations but since i believe bird could fit into more teams and magic not i will give bird a +1 and magic a -1"

suddendly there is a sizable Gap based on theorical value in theorical situations which is what i dont like

i remember him doing tjis to lebron, magic, hakeem and others and i strongly disagreed

I don't really follow his stuff so I don't know how he applies it but the concept makes sense to me and should be a point of consideration, especially in the case of Lebron where we can point to so many examples where his lack of portability arguably hurt his teams. I still don't know why Cavs didn't make a better effort to play more through Love who was an incredible offensive hub in Minnesota. If Lebron really was the defender you guys claim he was he could've played a more central role in Cavs defense to help shore up that weakness. Instead, pretty much everything ran through Lebron on offense so there was no identity when he wasn't on the floor and their defense sucked because he had to pick his spots.

As an exercise, try making the case that Steph's portability as an on ball / off ball player doesn't add significant value to Warriors offense.

i am not criticizing the value of off ball impact curry has

i am criticizing what i perceive to be double counting of it

if curry with all his offball and on ball value gives me X amount of value and player B who is more ballhogging also gives me X amount of value thinghs being as similar possible overall between their teams

i would say they are equally valuable players, maybe give curry a slight tiebreaker at most

the value of curry portability is already included when evaluating his impact, no need to give extra points

See I suppose, he doesn't consider it double counting because he is attempting to distinguish between how players do in certain situations. For example, Curry is Taylor's #1 offensive player ever for peak. However his peak offensive evaluation is 5.75. This is lower than say Lebron's peak offensive evaluation of 6 in 14. What this means is that in other words, he thinks LeBron is going to be better helping an average team on offense, but he doesn’t hold that value as well as Curry does as his team quality improves, and therefore, the portability aspect of +2 for Curry is attempting to show that.

The same thinking applies for LBJ and MJ overall. LBJ got a higher +/- evaluation than peak MJ, meaning he thinks Lebron can help average teams more than MJ. However, MJ got rated for the overall higher peak, because Ben places emphasis on how players do on better and better teams, because he believes that is what drives championship odds.

Basically, the +/- evaluation is supposed to be how he thinks players do in helping average teams, and the port is just a rating of how he believes that player's value holds on better and better teams.

I suppose he could mix port into the plus-minus eval, but he is attempting to show the audience who he thinks can most nba teams versus who can help the very best.

[homecourtloss]

I don't really follow his stuff so I don't know how he applies it but the concept makes sense to me and should be a point of consideration, especially in the case of Lebron where we can point to so many examples where his lack of portability arguably hurt his teams. I still don't know why Cavs didn't make a better effort to play more through Love who was an incredible offensive hub in Minnesota. If Lebron really was the defender you guys claim he was he could've played a more central role in Cavs defense to help shore up that weakness. Instead, pretty much everything ran through Lebron on offense so there was no identity when he wasn't on the floor and their defense sucked because he had to pick his spots.

As an exercise, try making the case that Steph's portability as an on ball / off ball player doesn't add significant value to Warriors offense.

I'm not sure where you are getting this narrative from. The Cavs were extremely effective at integrating Kevin Love into the LeBron offense. They produced all-time level offensive results. Why would the Cavs give Kevin Love a role like he had in Minnesota if it would make them less successful on offense? That makes no sense at all. Not to mention, Kevin Love was not the same player in Cleveland that he was in Minnesota. He lost a ton of weight in Cleveland so he couldn't play the same style as he did in Minnesota.

The results with LeBron and Love on the court were at all-time levels.

LeBron + Love on the court:

2015: RS 115.9, PS 118.9
2016: RS 116.1, PS 121.1
2017: RS 119.8, PS 123.5
2018: RS 114.8, PS 111.9

LeBron+Kyrie+Love:
2015: RS 116.7, PS 118.6
2016: RS 114.8, PS 122.2
2017: RS 120.4, PS 123.2

I don't know how anyone can look at those numbers and try to make a case that LeBron has bad portability or that Kevin Love should have received the ball more.

I just thought I should add that some people believe Lebron has gotten more portable throughout his career due to improved scoring and passing. For instance, Ben Taylor rates 09-12 Lebron has a -2 in port, 13-15 Lebron as a -1, and 16 to present Lebron as a 0 in portability. On the other hand, Ben Taylor believes 89 Jordan to 98 Jordan is a 0 in portability. So basically, Taylor believes Lebron had negative portability during his peak years, while Jordan had neutral portability. Just thought, I should add this in.

The data about how incredibly effective Love+James were has been pointed out to a few posters extremely active in this thread but they hand wave it away just like they hand wave away a plethora of other data. Either that or they don’t understand it. One of these.

[VanWest82]

I'm not sure where you are getting this narrative from. The Cavs were extremely effective at integrating Kevin Love into the LeBron offense. They produced all-time level offensive results. Why would the Cavs give Kevin Love a role like he had in Minnesota if it would make them less successful on offense? That makes no sense at all. Not to mention, Kevin Love was not the same player in Cleveland that he was in Minnesota. He lost a ton of weight in Cleveland so he couldn't play the same style as he did in Minnesota.

The results with LeBron and Love on the court were at all-time levels.

LeBron + Love on the court:

2015: RS 115.9, PS 118.9
2016: RS 116.1, PS 121.1
2017: RS 119.8, PS 123.5
2018: RS 114.8, PS 111.9

LeBron+Kyrie+Love:
2015: RS 116.7, PS 118.6
2016: RS 114.8, PS 122.2
2017: RS 120.4, PS 123.2

I don't know how anyone can look at those numbers and try to make a case that LeBron has bad portability or that Kevin Love should have received the ball more.

I just thought I should add that some people believe Lebron has gotten more portable throughout his career due to improved scoring and passing. For instance, Ben Taylor rates 09-12 Lebron has a -2 in port, 13-15 Lebron as a -1, and 16 to present Lebron as a 0 in portability. On the other hand, Ben Taylor believes 89 Jordan to 98 Jordan is a 0 in portability. So basically, Taylor believes Lebron had negative portability during his peak years, while Jordan had neutral portability. Just thought, I should add this in.

The data about how incredibly effective Love+James were has been pointed out to a few posters extremely active in this thread but they hand wave it away just like they hand wave away a plethora of other data. Either that or they don’t understand it. One of these.

Hand waving it away is the correct response given it doesn’t even address the objection which was that Lebron’s inflexible role definition arguably prevented those Cavs from achieving a higher ceiling overall given how bad their defense was and the fact that Bron was one of the few guys on that team capable of doing something about it.

Perhaps the real issue here is posters like yourself trying to come in over the top without actually reading or understanding the initial points being made.

[falcolombardi]

I just thought I should add that some people believe Lebron has gotten more portable throughout his career due to improved scoring and passing. For instance, Ben Taylor rates 09-12 Lebron has a -2 in port, 13-15 Lebron as a -1, and 16 to present Lebron as a 0 in portability. On the other hand, Ben Taylor believes 89 Jordan to 98 Jordan is a 0 in portability. So basically, Taylor believes Lebron had negative portability during his peak years, while Jordan had neutral portability. Just thought, I should add this in.

The data about how incredibly effective Love+James were has been pointed out to a few posters extremely active in this thread but they hand wave it away just like they hand wave away a plethora of other data. Either that or they don’t understand it. One of these.

Hand waving it away is the correct response given it doesn’t even address the objection which was that Lebron’s inflexible role definition arguably prevented those Cavs from achieving a higher ceiling overall given how bad their defense was and the fact that Bron was one of the few guys on that team capable of doing something about it.

Perhaps the real issue here is posters like yourself trying to come in over the top without actually reading or understanding the initial points being made.

you may criticize lebron defense if you want but you are aaking why he didnt take a backseat on offense and carry the cavs weak defensive roster

is an insane ask of a perimeter player unless you think jordan could (which he really couldnt)

that is not inflexibility in a comparision to jordan, you are basically asking why he didnt become dikembe mutombo. that is a crazy Standard to hold lebron to

specially in a comparision to jordan who i really, really doubt would have took a 2nd/3rd option role tonfocus on defense if he was in the same situation

[colts18]

Hand waving it away is the correct response given it doesn’t even address the objection which was that Lebron’s inflexible role definition arguably prevented those Cavs from achieving a higher ceiling overall given how bad their defense was and the fact that Bron was one of the few guys on that team capable of doing something about it.

Perhaps the real issue here is posters like yourself trying to come in over the top without actually reading or understanding the initial points being made.

I'm not sure what a higher ceiling for the Cavs looks like. They exceeded expectations every year with LeBron. Consider the following:

-Kevin Love has never made the playoffs in his career without LeBron
-Kyrie Irving has 2 career playoff series wins without LeBron. Kyrie's impact was so negative that the Celtics made it farther in the playoffs without Kyrie than with him. 3 Conference Finals appearances in 4 years without Kyrie and 1 second round appearance the year Kyrie played.

2015: Exceeded expectations. Made the finals without Kevin Love and Kyrie
2016: Exceeded expectations. Beat a 73 win team in the finals. You can't get better than a finals win
2017: Meet or exceeded expectations. Went 12-1 in the Eastern Conference playoffs. Can't do better than that. Then played the best or 2nd best team behind the 96 Bulls team in history. Going 5 games against the Warriors is even with
2018: Exceeded expectations by a wide margin. They shouldn't haven't made it past the 1st round. They made the finals with LeBron and practically nothing else on the roster.

Re: On the Eastern conference being weak.

2018 Cavs opponents:
Pacers 48-34, 1.18 SRS
Raptors 59-23, 7.23 SRS
Celtics 55-27, 3.23 SRS

Average: 54 wins, 3.88 SRS

Compare that to peak MJ's opponents in 1991:
Knicks 39-43, -0.43 SRS
Sixers 44-38, -0.39 SRS
Pistons 50-32, 3.08 SRS

Average: 44.3 wins, 0.75 SRS

No one ever diminishes MJ's peak for facing embarrassingly bad competition. If LeBron gets an asterisks for bad eastern conference opponents, so should 1991 MJ

[Djoker]

Hand waving it away is the correct response given it doesn’t even address the objection which was that Lebron’s inflexible role definition arguably prevented those Cavs from achieving a higher ceiling overall given how bad their defense was and the fact that Bron was one of the few guys on that team capable of doing something about it.

Perhaps the real issue here is posters like yourself trying to come in over the top without actually reading or understanding the initial points being made.

I'm not sure what a higher ceiling for the Cavs looks like. They exceeded expectations every year with LeBron. Consider the following:

-Kevin Love has never made the playoffs in his career without LeBron
-Kyrie Irving has 2 career playoff series wins without LeBron. Kyrie's impact was so negative that the Celtics made it farther in the playoffs without Kyrie than with him. 3 Conference Finals appearances in 4 years without Kyrie and 1 second round appearance the year Kyrie played.

2015: Exceeded expectations. Made the finals without Kevin Love and Kyrie
2016: Exceeded expectations. Beat a 73 win team in the finals. You can't get better than a finals win
2017: Meet or exceeded expectations. Went 12-1 in the Eastern Conference playoffs. Can't do better than that. Then played the best or 2nd best team behind the 96 Bulls team in history. Going 5 games against the Warriors is even with
2018: Exceeded expectations by a wide margin. They shouldn't haven't made it past the 1st round. They made the finals with LeBron and practically nothing else on the roster.

Re: On the Eastern conference being weak.

2018 Cavs opponents:
Pacers 48-34, 1.18 SRS
Raptors 59-23, 7.23 SRS
Celtics 55-27, 3.23 SRS

Average: 54 wins, 3.88 SRS

Compare that to peak MJ's opponents in 1991:
Knicks 39-43, -0.43 SRS
Sixers 44-38, -0.39 SRS
Pistons 50-32, 3.08 SRS

Average: 44.3 wins, 0.75 SRS

No one ever diminishes MJ's peak for facing embarrassingly bad competition. If LeBron gets an asterisks for bad eastern conference opponents, so should 1991 MJ

The whole reason those Raptors and Celtics teams did so well in 2018 is because that conference was trash. Look at the all-stars in the East that year compared to the West to understand the talent disparity.

All-Stars from East teams:
- Lebron James
- Kevin Love
- Giannis Antetokounmpo
- Al Horford
- Kyle Lowry
- Demar Derozan
- Kyrie Irving (injured in the playoffs)
- Kemba Walker
- Kristaps Porzingis
- John Wall
- Bradley Beal
- Joel Embiid (not the current one)
- Andre Drummond
- Goran Dragic

All-Stars from West teams:
- Stephen Curry
- Kevin Durant
- James Harden
- Russell Westbrook
- Chris Paul
- Anthony Davis
- Demarcus Cousins
- Damian Lillard
- Lamarcus Aldridge
- Paul George
- Jimmy Butler
- Karl Anthony-Towns
- Draymond Green
- Klay Thompson

That's why the league decided to introduce Team Lebron vs. Team Steph... because outside of Lebron, the West had basically all of the other top 10 players.

[KPT1867]

If we think about this question in terms of value (measured in VORP) but adjust it for the number of games and sum across regular and post-seasons.

Player Season vorp
LJ 2008-09 15.9
MJ 1990-91 15.6
MJ 1988-89 14.3
MJ 1992-93 14.2
MJ 1989-90 14.1
LJ 2012-13 13.6
MJ 1987-88 13.6
MJ 1995-96 13.5
LJ 2011-12 13.2
MJ 1991-92 12.8
MJ 1996-97 12.1
LJ 2017-18 12.1
MJ 1986-87 11.8
LJ 2009-10 11.3
LJ 2015-16 11.1
LJ 2013-14 11.0
LJ 2006-07 10.9
LJ 2007-08 10.7
LJ 2010-11 10.5
MJ 1997-98 10.3
LJ 2019-20 10.2
LJ 2005-06 10.2
MJ 1984-85 8.3
MJ 2002-03 2.8



Here when I am adjusting for number of games, I'm making every season a full 82-game season. For every playoff series win, I'm extrapolating to make that series a 7 game series, so that one player does not get penalized for winning in fewer games.

I do similar analyses in a book in By the Numbers: How 12 NBA Greats Compare Across Eras

[LukaTheGOAT]

Hand waving it away is the correct response given it doesn’t even address the objection which was that Lebron’s inflexible role definition arguably prevented those Cavs from achieving a higher ceiling overall given how bad their defense was and the fact that Bron was one of the few guys on that team capable of doing something about it.

Perhaps the real issue here is posters like yourself trying to come in over the top without actually reading or understanding the initial points being made.

I'm not sure what a higher ceiling for the Cavs looks like. They exceeded expectations every year with LeBron. Consider the following:

-Kevin Love has never made the playoffs in his career without LeBron
-Kyrie Irving has 2 career playoff series wins without LeBron. Kyrie's impact was so negative that the Celtics made it farther in the playoffs without Kyrie than with him. 3 Conference Finals appearances in 4 years without Kyrie and 1 second round appearance the year Kyrie played.

2015: Exceeded expectations. Made the finals without Kevin Love and Kyrie
2016: Exceeded expectations. Beat a 73 win team in the finals. You can't get better than a finals win
2017: Meet or exceeded expectations. Went 12-1 in the Eastern Conference playoffs. Can't do better than that. Then played the best or 2nd best team behind the 96 Bulls team in history. Going 5 games against the Warriors is even with
2018: Exceeded expectations by a wide margin. They shouldn't haven't made it past the 1st round. They made the finals with LeBron and practically nothing else on the roster.

Re: On the Eastern conference being weak.

2018 Cavs opponents:
Pacers 48-34, 1.18 SRS
Raptors 59-23, 7.23 SRS
Celtics 55-27, 3.23 SRS

Average: 54 wins, 3.88 SRS

Compare that to peak MJ's opponents in 1991:
Knicks 39-43, -0.43 SRS
Sixers 44-38, -0.39 SRS
Pistons 50-32, 3.08 SRS

Average: 44.3 wins, 0.75 SRS

No one ever diminishes MJ's peak for facing embarrassingly bad competition. If LeBron gets an asterisks for bad eastern conference opponents, so should 1991 MJ

Also it is early, but Kyrie's scoring performance without Lebron in the PS has not exactly greatly.

His 3-yr PS scoring peak all happened in years with Lebron.

From 15-17:

Inflation Adjusted Points Per 75- 26.7 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.3%). That mark is all-time scoring for a PG over 3 title runs (with so many minutes at 1891) a span that you have only really seen from Steph or CP3 (unless we count Jerry West as a PG and maybe some other people who aren't always counted as PG).

However, in the PS runs without Lebron:

18-19:

Inflation Adjusted Points Per 75- 21.8 Points Per 75 (rTS% of NEGATIVE 5.2%)

20-21:

Inflation Adjusted Points Per 75-22.6 Points Per 75 (rTS% of 1%)

As I mentioned, it is early, but Kyrie was an all-time great scoring PG that has fell down several tiers since his departure with Lebron. Perhaps it is fair to question how much of an offensive load you would like Kyrie to take on, as perhaps he benefits from someone who can dissect the defense for him.

His overall offensive impact has potentially dwindled as well

Per PS LEBRON, his offensive peak was from 15-17 with.

15-17: O-LEBRON of 3.90

19-21: O-LEBRON of 0.74

That is a major drop-off, where he went from looking better than 14-16 Harden, 18-20 Jimmy Butler, and 16-18 Westbrook, while also looking comparable to 17-19 Harden to not looking very spectacular.

The drop-off is noticeable in PS Backpicks OBPM as well.

15: 3.7
16: 4.8
17: 4.3
3-year peak is during this time at 4.4

19: 1
21: 2.81

He once again goes from looking like a strong all-nba level OFFENSIVE player from 15-17 to looking unspectacular after that period. One way or another, either the 15-17 stretch for Kyrie was luck or perhaps Lebron did a good job of helping to optimize him.

[VanWest82]

Kyrie is a little like Melo in that he’s effective when paired with a quality PG but if he’s the PG then it doesn’t work. Celtics tried to make Kyrie the PG. He was fine in Brooklyn last year until he got hurt. Obviously his stats weren’t going to look as impressive playing next to Harden AND KD. No need to create fake Lebron narratives here.

[falcolombardi]

Kyrie is a little like Melo in that he’s effective when paired with a quality PG but if he’s the PG then it doesn’t work. Celtics tried to make Kyrie the PG. He was fine in Brooklyn last year until he got hurt. Obviously his stats weren’t going to look as impressive playing next to Harden AND KD. No need to create fake Lebron narratives here.

what narrative? i am not sure what you are refering to

[LukaTheGOAT]

Kyrie is a little like Melo in that he’s effective when paired with a quality PG but if he’s the PG then it doesn’t work. Celtics tried to make Kyrie the PG. He was fine in Brooklyn last year until he got hurt. Obviously his stats weren’t going to look as impressive playing next to Harden AND KD. No need to create fake Lebron narratives here.

what narrative? i am not sure what you are refering to

That some teammates benefit from Lebron is a narrative to some.

The funny thing is usually when players have a reduced scoring load, their efficiency rises as they can better pick their spots. Kyrie has seen a massive reduction in volume AND efficiency, which is relatively peculiar.

[VanWest82]

I'm not sure what a higher ceiling for the Cavs looks like. They exceeded expectations every year with LeBron.

No they didn't.

Cavs over/under prior to season vs. actual win total.

14/15: 58.5 o/u vs. 53 actual
15/16: 57.5 o/u vs. 57 actual
16/17: 56.5 o/u vs. 51 actual
17/18: 53.5 o/u vs. 50 actual

They underperformed their expectation every single year.

-Kevin Love has never made the playoffs in his career without LeBron

Kevin Love was 3rd in PER, 3rd in WS, 2nd in BPM, and 3rd in VORP the year prior to joining Lebron.

-Kyrie Irving has 2 career playoff series wins without LeBron. Kyrie's impact was so negative that the Celtics made it farther in the playoffs without Kyrie than with him. 3 Conference Finals appearances in 4 years without Kyrie and 1 second round appearance the year Kyrie played.

The Celtics stupidly tried to build their team around playing Kyrie out of position. How many series would Paul George win if he had to play full time PG, or Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray?

2015: Exceeded expectations. Made the finals without Kevin Love and Kyrie
2016: Exceeded expectations. Beat a 73 win team in the finals. You can't get better than a finals win
2017: Meet or exceeded expectations. Went 12-1 in the Eastern Conference playoffs. Can't do better than that. Then played the best or 2nd best team behind the 96 Bulls team in history. Going 5 games against the Warriors is even with
2018: Exceeded expectations by a wide margin. They shouldn't haven't made it past the 1st round. They made the finals with LeBron and practically nothing else on the roster.

The Leastern Conference was a joke these years. Cavs were expected to sleep walk to the Finals every year except for 2018.

Re: On the Eastern conference being weak.

2018 Cavs opponents:
Pacers 48-34, 1.18 SRS
Raptors 59-23, 7.23 SRS
Celtics 55-27, 3.23 SRS

Average: 54 wins, 3.88 SRS

Compare that to peak MJ's opponents in 1991:
Knicks 39-43, -0.43 SRS
Sixers 44-38, -0.39 SRS
Pistons 50-32, 3.08 SRS

Average: 44.3 wins, 0.75 SRS

No one ever diminishes MJ's peak for facing embarrassingly bad competition. If LeBron gets an asterisks for bad eastern conference opponents, so should 1991 MJ

Right. The 2018 Raptors. My team that I watched 82 games plus playoffs. You'll forgive me if I don't laugh a bit at this. I enjoyed that team for what it was but those Raps were the definition of a paper tiger. It's interesting you only did this analysis for one year. What happens if you look at 15-18 vs. 90-93?

But truthfully, Bulls did have a relatively easy road in 91. It's just a fact, and it's why we need to evaluate this stuff with some context.

Lastly, I note that once again you (and others) responded without actually addressing my original point which was that Lebron's inflexible role definition prevented him from aiding Cavs woeful defense those years. He was one of the only guys on those teams capable of making a difference. And you'll note that the two years (15 & 16) where Cavs did have the most success vs. Warriors where when they actually defended. That's how they could've achieved a higher ceiling as a team. But Lebron just wanted to play Lebron ball rather than sacrifice. This points toward his lack of portability which was the initial point of topic.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Kyrie is a little like Melo in that he’s effective when paired with a quality PG but if he’s the PG then it doesn’t work. Celtics tried to make Kyrie the PG. He was fine in Brooklyn last year until he got hurt. Obviously his stats weren’t going to look as impressive playing next to Harden AND KD. No need to create fake Lebron narratives here.

The real kicker here is where I say, "it is early," acknowledging that Kyrie has only played 655 minutes in the PS without Lebron, and therefore the results could be subject to change. Yet considering the drastic decrease in his performance is at least something notable that people might find interesting. It is almost as if you can't wait to say something that is contrarian to statistical evidence, you just miss everything else someone is saying and just utter anything on your mind.

It is not a fake narrative, when I present evidence that the difference in Kyrie's impact is statistically significant with or without Lebron. It is presenting a proposition that perhaps Lebron raised those Cavs offenses to the highest possible highs. The very same offenses you denigrate, were better than any Jordan ever lead.

The funny thing is usually when players have a reduced scoring load, their efficiency rises as they can better pick their spots. Kyrie has seen a massive reduction in volume AND efficiency, which is relatively peculiar.

BTW, in 6 games with Harden in the PS, Kyrie averaged 24.8 pts (rTS% of 2.5%) per game...small sample but still nothing outlandish.

[VanWest82]

The funny thing is usually when players have a reduced scoring load, their efficiency rises as they can better pick their spots. Kyrie has seen a massive reduction in volume AND efficiency, which is relatively peculiar.

Sometimes this happens though I wouldn't say it's an ironclad rule. Also, last year Kyrie posted the highest TS of his career both in RS and PS so it's not true that he's had a massive reduction in efficiency. His RS USG was also right in line with his career average though his PS USG was down slightly. I'd argue the combo of Harden and KD were more ball dominant than Lebron and Love, especially given how much Love's role was diminished in Cleveland, so that's worth factoring in here.

[falcolombardi]

I'm not sure what a higher ceiling for the Cavs looks like. They exceeded expectations every year with LeBron.

No they didn't.

Cavs over/under prior to season vs. actual win total.

14/15: 58.5 o/u vs. 53 actual
15/16: 57.5 o/u vs. 57 actual
16/17: 56.5 o/u vs. 51 actual
17/18: 53.5 o/u vs. 50 actual

They underperformed their expectation every single year.

-Kevin Love has never made the playoffs in his career without LeBron

Kevin Love was 3rd in PER, 3rd in WS, 2nd in BPM, and 3rd in VORP the year prior to joining Lebron.

-Kyrie Irving has 2 career playoff series wins without LeBron. Kyrie's impact was so negative that the Celtics made it farther in the playoffs without Kyrie than with him. 3 Conference Finals appearances in 4 years without Kyrie and 1 second round appearance the year Kyrie played.

The Celtics stupidly tried to build their team around playing Kyrie out of position. How many series would Paul George win if he had to play full time PG, or Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray?

2015: Exceeded expectations. Made the finals without Kevin Love and Kyrie
2016: Exceeded expectations. Beat a 73 win team in the finals. You can't get better than a finals win
2017: Meet or exceeded expectations. Went 12-1 in the Eastern Conference playoffs. Can't do better than that. Then played the best or 2nd best team behind the 96 Bulls team in history. Going 5 games against the Warriors is even with
2018: Exceeded expectations by a wide margin. They shouldn't haven't made it past the 1st round. They made the finals with LeBron and practically nothing else on the roster.

The Leastern Conference was a joke these years. Cavs were expected to sleep walk to the Finals every year except for 2018.

Re: On the Eastern conference being weak.

2018 Cavs opponents:
Pacers 48-34, 1.18 SRS
Raptors 59-23, 7.23 SRS
Celtics 55-27, 3.23 SRS

Average: 54 wins, 3.88 SRS

Compare that to peak MJ's opponents in 1991:
Knicks 39-43, -0.43 SRS
Sixers 44-38, -0.39 SRS
Pistons 50-32, 3.08 SRS

Average: 44.3 wins, 0.75 SRS

No one ever diminishes MJ's peak for facing embarrassingly bad competition. If LeBron gets an asterisks for bad eastern conference opponents, so should 1991 MJ

Right. The 2018 Raptors. My team that I watched 82 games plus playoffs. You'll forgive me if I don't laugh a bit at this. I enjoyed that team for what it was but those Raps were the definition of a paper tiger. It's interesting you only did this analysis for one year. What happens if you look at 15-18 vs. 90-93?

But truthfully, Bulls did have a relatively easy road in 91. It's just a fact, and it's why we need to evaluate this stuff with some context.

Lastly, I note that once again you (and others) responded without actually addressing my original point which was that Lebron's inflexible role definition prevented him from aiding Cavs woeful defense those years. He was one of the only guys on those teams capable of making a difference. And you'll note that the two years (15 & 16) where Cavs did have the most success vs. Warriors where when they actually defended. That's how they could've achieved a higher ceiling as a team. But Lebron just wanted to play Lebron ball rather than sacrifice for the good of the team. This points toward his lack of portability which was the initial point of topic.

lebron lack of portability is why the cavs....defense(?) was bad?

one of the most versátile defensive players of our era lack of -defensive - portability is why a bad defensive roster was bad defensively ?

do you think if lebron left the offense to worse players and became a defensive specialist the defensive improvement would be enough to overcome the offensive drop off? (let alone inprove the team overall) you are asking lebron to be dikembe mutombo or Alonso mourning? cause that is the kind of defensive lift you are asking for

you just said that playing kyrie as the point guard was a bad idea by the celtics and then you criticize lebron for not dedicating to defense and letting kyrie run the offense instead ? who would have ran point guard then? lebron literally let kyrie take -MORE- shots than him despite being a less efficient scorer

do you think jordan would have happyly became a 3rd option behind love and kyrie amd dedicate himself to defense because the team had enough offense?