Fred "bet on yourself" Van Vleet

[ontnut]

he has his great qualities - set shooter, some clutchness, plays well within the system, great when moving the ball.

and then bad qualities - somewhat tunnel vision at times, can't finish at the rim - like one of the lowest FG% at the rim from a guard perhaps, holding the ball for too long.

well for a 5'11 guy. its pretty good.

Why does nobody mention he’s good in the pick and roll? Quite few run it as smooth as he does.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler/#!?SeasonYear=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PPP&dir=1

36th in these types of plays.
he's about the 33rd best guy in PnRs in terms of points generated by him in a PnR.

i'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Raps have not had a great PnR big man to use. - Maybe Barnes and Precious can be useful in those situations.

Those PnR lobs to Precious were pretty tasty. It'll take some time to develop chemistry but I'm glad we finally have some credible lob threats. Once they develop a bit, and our shooters gain the confidence of Fred as a playmaker, I think we'll see some pretty awesome offensive runs.

[goinrogue]

I think with Fred we’re trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. I think Fred and goran should both be traded soon. Make Scottie the starting point guard instead. Fred has a lot of trade value we could get some nice pieces for him. I just don’t think he fits with what we’re trying to do.

[v1n5anity]

he has his great qualities - set shooter, some clutchness, plays well within the system, great when moving the ball.

and then bad qualities - somewhat tunnel vision at times, can't finish at the rim - like one of the lowest FG% at the rim from a guard perhaps, holding the ball for too long.

well for a 5'11 guy. its pretty good.

This. We know him too well as he’s done this for years now. He tends to hold onto the ball too long, drives to the lane, goes in circles until more than 1 opposing player gives him no room to get out of as the shot clock runs out and eventually blocks his shot. Very frustrating to see because it seems he wants to play hero-ball a lot of times. I’m ok with him driving the lane, just wished he’d release it sooner so the opposing player/s don’t have time to react.

[Tha Cynic]

The good thing is, he's trying to play differently. The bad thing is, I don't think he has a very good feel for the game, and the Raptors seem to have made him their Lowry replacement.

Though he did have 17 assists last game, I felt a lot of it was more of the Mike James variety. They look great on paper, but if you watch the game, you can see that he did t have a great game controlling the offense.

[nestea]

When you handle the ball as much as Fred does you will have a high turnover rate. It is what it is

[pingpongrac]

When you handle the ball as much as Fred does you will have a high turnover rate. It is what it is

That's the thing. FVV has handled the ball a lot since the Championship and finished with a 3:1 (or better) AST/TO ratio while maintaining a low TOV% for a ball handler the past two seasons. The question is do people want to take the ~120-game sample size where FVV was one of the best in the entire league at limiting turnovers or this 4-game sample size where he is averaging 9 AST and 4.5 TOV while also shooting just 22% on 3FGA?

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[vini_vidi_vici]

Its odd that ppl seem to not watching what I am.

FVV has been plagued with the same things alot of guys have, this system is different and players are struggling to adapt to the clogged middle because of our motion offense.

24 potential ASTs aside last night, alot of those TOVs on passes atleast were a result of the strong side DHOs/pin down screens clogging middle. When you have so much movement going to the middle/rim, its hurting our drive/kick game. I thought FVV has been pretty good this yr, but I do have my reservations about the offensive structure.

I get that its an experiment and we are trying innovate something new. I feel like given that, I wont be too critical early on in the season, but they have alot of work to do because we are already not a great shooting team, and when youre making the team the worst spacing in the L, its compounded.

[Gold Dragon]

Fred's starting squad includes
-OG who is 24 and learning how to increase is usage and over come more defensive attention
-GTJ who is 22 and has a 17 game sample size in the raptors system prior to preseason
-Precious who is 22 and new to the Raptors system and has only started 4 NBA games prior to this season
-Barnes who is 20 and a rookie
-Fred himself who is taking a much bigger play making role without Kyle or Pascal around

So 5 players learning 5 new roles, most new to the system and some new to the league. Is it a surprise that the offense is ugly/clunky? On top of that we have a bench of Svi, Dragic, Banton, Birch and Boucher who are also mostly new with the exception of Birch (only 19 games last season) and Boucher who has been playing like trash.

Yes, Fred is primarily handling the ball and making a lot of the ugly plays, but do you really think anyone else could do better on this roster? Do you really want Barnes who is already carrying a big load on defense and scoring to also be the primary play maker and ball handler? Is that really the best thing for his long term development to have him do pretty much everything? Or Banton who is even rawer?

Nurse probably spent most of training camp preparing for our complex defensive schemes so the offense may have been neglected. Pascal who Fred is most comfortable with is out which may be a good thing because it forces Fred to learn the nuances of the other starters. I trust that this group of high IQ, hard working players will figure it out and eventually, Fred, Barnes and Pascal will share the play making duties fairly evenly. Until then, Fred is the best we have and he is doing an amazing job for an undrafted player of his size and speed at his salary.

The irrational Fred hate on this forum and from this fanbase is an embarassment. The man is carrying this team, keeping us competitive, trying to make things happen when our offense stalls, teaching all the new guys their roles and where they need to be, being the coach on the floor and setting an example of what it takes to compete and win in this league. And all folks can think about is his listed height, how many shots he takes and him getting blocked in the paint. Good thing we have a world class president and coach who obviously value Fred very differently from a majority of this genius fanbase we have.

[nikster]

Its odd that ppl seem to not watching what I am.

FVV has been plagued with the same things alot of guys have, this system is different and players are struggling to adapt to the clogged middle because of our motion offense.

24 potential ASTs aside last night, alot of those TOVs on passes atleast were a result of the strong side DHOs/pin down screens clogging middle. When you have so much movement going to the middle/rim, its hurting our drive/kick game. I thought FVV has been pretty good this yr, but I do have my reservations about the offensive structure.

I get that its an experiment and we are trying innovate something new. I feel like given that, I wont be too critical early on in the season, but they have alot of work to do because we are already not a great shooting team, and when youre making the team the worst spacing in the L, its compounded.

yeah in this mess of an offense Fred scored or Assisted on over half of our field goals. Sure the turnovers had to be cut down but he was fantastic as a playmaker

[mulamutti]

Honestly, i really enjoyed Fred's game tonight. Yes he made mistakes, but I feel like finally he's starting to understand his role better as he learns to lead this team. I think we all need to be very patient for this entire year, if not 2. Remember how long it too kyle/demar etc. to get to their stride, and that included trades to get players to suit them.

In my opinion, Fred has a Kawhi like demeanor on the floor. He is very calm and his natural pace is slow and controlled vs. chaotic and excited. This team needs controlled chaos, which Kyle was a master at. He would push the ball, and try to create chaos on offense which led to lot of easy baskets. That is what the team needs, and Fred actually did a lot of that todat. Granted that led to some bad passes, missed layups, etc. However he needs to do this because we just don't have offensive creators.

Team has a whole lot of above average raw materials, with a below-average finished product. Nick has to slowly figure it out.

[refshateRaps]

We need a real scoring guard who can create. Fred is a nice player but being force to play above his skill level

[Brinbe]

He is and should be an offball 3+D 2guard. Exactly how he operated next to Lowry. That's his strength, defending and 3 pt shooting and something we lack, so lean into that.

Let Scottie operate the offense as lead playmaker because he is the best at it on the team and camping him in the corner isn't making the best use of his skill set. He should be setting Fred up, not the other way around.

Doing anything else is just being deferential to Fred because of nostalgia and memories regardless of reality/results and that's not really how successful teams operate.

Are we actually a serious team trying to improve and win or an entertainment venture operating off of positive vibes regardless of actual results?

It's almost 2022, not 2019.

My feeling is that it's an ego thing. He is the vet and he wants the role and the ball. But he's not good enough. Everyone ultimately has limitations. And the thought of the rook leading isn't maybe something he will acquiesce to readily.

But if we want to see better results on the court now and in the future, that's what needs to eventually happen.

[SaveTheHens]

Just need more movement on offence in general and Siakam can help with that. Freddy would be a nice guy you swing pass to for an open 3, much more efficient like that than trying to just use a screen and hit his own 3 or taking a deep one. Generally made good use of his drives to pass but needs more confidence finishing or even just keeping the dribble alive and bringing the ball back out if nothing presents itself. We do need a more complex offence in general though, something to get more guys involved & the ball moving and finding the open man more often.

[And1+2]

There were some positives, as well as negatives last night! I like that he tried to play differently, and many of those turnovers can be cleaned up. Some were just lazy passes, which I'm sure he's kicking himself about.

I am not keen on Fred as our pg moving forward, and I bash him pretty often on things I believe deserve legitimate criticism, but I need to give him a little more benefit of doubt. I have never said he's a bad player, just used improperly with a tendency to make some questionable decisions due to his perceived lack of vision.

He also, admittingly, has very large shoes to fill. Lowry was and is one of the greatest floor generals in NBA history, in my opinion. That's a tough act to follow.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Honestly, i really enjoyed Fred's game tonight. Yes he made mistakes, but I feel like finally he's starting to understand his role better as he learns to lead this team. I think we all need to be very patient for this entire year, if not 2. Remember how long it too kyle/demar etc. to get to their stride, and that included trades to get players to suit them.

In my opinion, Fred has a Kawhi like demeanor on the floor. He is very calm and his natural pace is slow and controlled vs. chaotic and excited. This team needs controlled chaos, which Kyle was a master at. He would push the ball, and try to create chaos on offense which led to lot of easy baskets. That is what the team needs, and Fred actually did a lot of that todat. Granted that led to some bad passes, missed layups, etc. However he needs to do this because we just don't have offensive creators.

Team has a whole lot of above average raw materials, with a below-average finished product. Nick has to slowly figure it out.

I think if you track their careers Kyle was a premier cherry picker on offense and not what people actually think he was in reflection. He became more of a pace setter/fast break wiz later on in his career. But, early on, and then on the Raptors he was a guy who sat back and let DeMar establish himself, and then when needed he'd go into takeover mode. His ability to fly off an Amir screen and finish through contact, and the respect he had from the refs always made him a decent takeover candidate. Last night we actually saw Fred take over with his scoring and drag the team back. I thought last night should have shut up pretty much every gamethread poster, but apparently his turnovers cost us the game?

Fred isn't stupid or anything, but he doesn't have a shield right now. OG is actually the opportunistic guy, forcing Fred into a primary option. There was one possession that stood out last night where OG had nothing on the wing against Lonzo Ball, and Lonzo got an easy strip that OG recovered and hoisted a pathetic air ball. Those kind of bailout possession-makers aren't here right now. That's where Siakam can relieve some pressure.

The other issue is that Dragic should be providing more off the bench. Not in terms of points, but just initiating actions. He's been just too passive, which is forcing Mykailiuk to pick up the slack, which is forcing Fred back onto the court and he's not able to give as much defensively. Dragic isn't playing with any pace, or any urgency. Nurse has been throwing in Banton, who is uber aggressive and a difference maker on defense already, but I think on a functional team he really shouldn't be seeing much court time.

So 1) should Fred not be given a free pass until Siakam returns?
2) do people not realize that 2/5 starters have not played or barely played in the NBA and are killing the spacing for guys like Fred and OG? Give these guys time to figure it out together.

[NBA Sheady]

6th in Assists as of today
19th in Assists last year (playing off the ball)

[vini_vidi_vici]

6th in Assists as of today
19th in Assists last year (playing off the ball)

4th in potential ASTs, guys have bricked alot of his passes too.

[QingJames]

Been said time & time again. He'd be great as our starting SG. But just doesn't possess the playmaking abilities & offensive IQ for him to excel as our starting PG.

I'd lose to see a backcourt of Barnes/FVV. I think they'd be great together. Barnes would always find FVV for those easy swishes. Freddy would be a much more efficient shooter in that role.

How do you rack up 17 assists, average 6 for the year last year NEXT to a lead guard, and not have quality playmaking abilities? He's not Chris Paul and he's not Lowry, but if you look around the league at some of the other lead guards, Fred is way up there in terms of playmaking ability. He's a better playmaker than Sexton, DLo, I would (controversially) suggest he's better at that particular skill than Jrue, he's better at it than Brogdon, Kemba, etc.

He's a good playmaker as a lead guard. The problem right now isn't his playmaking ability but rather how other guys aren't moving well off the ball. Fred has his flaws - he dribbles too much and he telegraphs his drives to the rim - but the turnovers and "lack of playmaking ability" people are harping on here is just total nonsense.

[Young_Buc]

Point Guard is a bizarre position in which stats do NOT tell the full story of IMPACT. Because you have the ball in your hands for a good amount of the time, you're going to rack up some favourable statistics)

Statistics make bad point guards look good

(Mike James, Jose Calderon, Fred)

Amazing franchise changing PG's look average

(Lowry, CP3)

And Good PG's look like legendary GOATS

(Harden, Westbrook)

A PG should be held to the eye test. How well does the TEAM function with them at the wheel? How are they ensuring success for EVERYONE on the court. Dragic as terrible as he is, is a better PG than Fred. And the dropoff from Kyle to Fred is out of this world.

Lonzo Ball >>>>>> FVV

[ATLTimekeeper]

Lonzo Ball >>>>>> FVV

Dude, no Did you watch him last night? Totally scared to put the ball on the floor. That turnover to Scottie at the end of the game is like, not a rare mistake for him. He's one of the bigger boneheaded passers in the league, and Chicago fans will start to pick up on this in time. Lonzo is a 5th starter. Fred is a 3rd option. If you put Fred on the court with Vuc/LaVine/DeRozan you don't think Fred can't can wide open 3s all night?