Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[HomoSapien]

We should think about benching him. He might need something like that to light a fire under him. 3 shots and 0 rebounds in 26 minutes is unacceptable and embarrassing.

You only bench him if he's actively hurting the team. And by 'actively hurting the team', I mean, are we losing close, winnable games because of him?

So far we're 4-0. Let's see what happens during this gauntlet the next couple weeks. If after the next 10-15 games we're seeing clear evidence of lost games that reasonably could've been won if Green was starting, then we can seriously talk about benching him.

But if we do well on this gauntlet, and the losses are minimal, than I don't see the point in benching him for another role player. If he isn't actively a detriment to our record and our team performance, even if his individual play still isn't great or even good, a public in-season demotion would only serve to humiliate him for no reason. And while that can serve as fuel for some players, for others, it just messes with their heads.

You still do it if it's necessary, if he's hurting the team. But it's too early to make that determination. I think we gotta give it to Thanksgiving at least.

Respectfully, I disagree. We got destroyed on the boards today and he had zero rebounds in 26 minutes at the PF spot. That hurt us, how it could it not?

But regardless, Patrick Williams has started all 74 games of his career and frankly I’m not sure if that’s been a good thing for him. Demoting him, even if it’s just for a few games, might wake him up a little bit. He’s sleep walking out there.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

We should think about benching him. He might need something like that to light a fire under him. 3 shots and 0 rebounds in 26 minutes is unacceptable and embarrassing.

You only bench him if he's actively hurting the team. And by 'actively hurting the team', I mean, are we losing close, winnable games because of him?

So far we're 4-0. Let's see what happens during this gauntlet the next couple weeks. If after the next 10-15 games we're seeing clear evidence of lost games that reasonably could've been won if Green was starting, then we can seriously talk about benching him.

But if we do well on this gauntlet, and the losses are minimal, than I don't see the point in benching him for another role player. If he isn't actively a detriment to our record and our team performance, even if his individual play still isn't great or even good, a public in-season demotion would only serve to humiliate him for no reason. And while that can serve as fuel for some players, for others, it just messes with their heads.

You still do it if it's necessary, if he's hurting the team. But it's too early to make that determination. I think we gotta give it to Thanksgiving at least.

Respectfully, I disagree. We got destroyed on the boards today and he had zero rebounds in 26 minutes at the PF spot. That hurt us, how it could it not?

But regardless, Patrick Williams has started all 74 games of his career and frankly I’m not sure if that’s been a good thing for him. Demoting him, even if it’s just for a few games, might wake him up a little bit. He’s sleep walking out there.

We still won the game and we were up by a lot for most of it. Of course the rebounding numbers aren't good. But the team still controlled most of that game before we collapsed a bit in the fourth, and that collapse wasn't Pat's fault, the whole team stumbled except for DDR.

He surely needs to start showing something, sooner rather than later, but four games in is too soon.

[fleet]

You only bench him if he's actively hurting the team. And by 'actively hurting the team', I mean, are we losing close, winnable games because of him?

So far we're 4-0. Let's see what happens during this gauntlet the next couple weeks. If after the next 10-15 games we're seeing clear evidence of lost games that reasonably could've been won if Green was starting, then we can seriously talk about benching him.

But if we do well on this gauntlet, and the losses are minimal, than I don't see the point in benching him for another role player. If he isn't actively a detriment to our record and our team performance, even if his individual play still isn't great or even good, a public in-season demotion would only serve to humiliate him for no reason. And while that can serve as fuel for some players, for others, it just messes with their heads.

You still do it if it's necessary, if he's hurting the team. But it's too early to make that determination. I think we gotta give it to Thanksgiving at least.

Respectfully, I disagree. We got destroyed on the boards today and he had zero rebounds in 26 minutes at the PF spot. That hurt us, how it could it not?

But regardless, Patrick Williams has started all 74 games of his career and frankly I’m not sure if that’s been a good thing for him. Demoting him, even if it’s just for a few games, might wake him up a little bit. He’s sleep walking out there.

We still won the game and we were up by a lot for most of it. Of course the rebounding numbers aren't good. But the team still controlled most of that game before we collapsed a bit in the fourth, and that collapse wasn't Pat's fault, the whole team stumbled except for DDR.

He surely needs to start showing something, sooner rather than later, but four games in is too soon.

He’s the same player from last season. If watching and waiting for Eddy Curry taught us anything, we should apply the lesson. Here is a guy that is not asked to score, but to do everything else. A large portion of everything else is missing. He can’t or won’t rebound. That said, the Bulls have to play him. Hell they may have to start him. But only until an actual solution at the 4 is found, which does not appear to be an internal solution. I would be shopping Pat at this point.

[PlayerUp]

But regardless, Patrick Williams has started all 74 games of his career and frankly I’m not sure if that’s been a good thing for him. Demoting him, even if it’s just for a few games, might wake him up a little bit. He’s sleep walking out there.

Have to do something because currently he is pretty useless out there.

[PlayerUp]

Bulls got so unlucky here with the 2020 NBA Draft. We were 1 pick away from LaMelo and it was the wrong year to have a #4 pick. Should have moved up.

Picks after Williams all struggling as well.

#5 - Okoro - Nothing special
#6 - Okongwu - Always injured
#7 - Hayes - -5.36 PER this season
#8 - Toppin - Looks like a bust
#9 - Avdija - Nothing special
#10 - Smith - Looks like a bust
#11 - Vassell - Nothing special

Haliburton maybe the exception here but overall it looks like the 2020 Draft was simply not very good which is pretty much what we had all expected.

[CaPiTanAK]

Play like a sad sack of dog poop. Might as well quit the NBA and go back home growing flowers.

[nekorajo]

Pat is too young and works too hard to give up on. That said I don't expect him to thrive this year as a starting 4. He's not strong enough or aggressive enough to push a big off his spot. He doesn't box out well which is a necessary skill at PF. He doesnt intimidate anyone defensively. But what should we expect from a 20 year old who mostly played SF last year?

An area where he could immediately improve is effort. How times has he put his head down and sprinted across the court this season? I can't recall one time yet. He's just too cool most of the time, and that's the part that concerns me most. His energy level doesn't appear to compliment our other starters. Will it ever?

[ozbull]

Trade him for what? A dishwasher and a can of coke?

He was a speculative pick that's not showing any of the results we hoped for this far.

We have no option but to sit tight, hope he has some pride in performance and that after having SFA pre-season, he'll find some rhythm after a couple of weeks.

Can't help but watch Pat right now and just think, Jesus, has this franchise sucked at the draft in the last decade.

[heir_jordan22]

I think people are overreacting about Pat. 0 rebounds and 3 shot attempts is not good. But this is a second year player who missed the last month (all of preseason) with an injury. The roster is completely reconstructed and he is now playing an entirely different role and basically hasn't practiced with this team. And let's not pretend he's the only one not rebounding. We only had 28 rebounds as a team. That's putrid, and while Pat definitely needs to carry some of the blame for that, he is the second tallest player in our rotation at 6'7". We need more size.

We should NOT bench him for someone who is already on the roster. We need to trade for a bigger PF who is a rebounder and defender. And we definitely should NOT be including Pat in the trade. Obviously DJJ is the guy to trade and possibly include TBJ.

Let's not lose our minds here.

[thebizkit]

I said it all of last year and my question still exist... What exactly does Patrick Williams do in a nightly basis that warrants him starting every game?

The Bulls banished Simonović to the G League but I have seen nothing out of Williams that tells me that he should not be there also.

[sco]

My biggest issue with Pat is that he has all world type tools but seemingly has no aggression on the floor. Hope he figured it out but each game that goes by I lose more faith in him figuring it out. Look at Scotty Barnes, already looks like a better player that’s not afraid to be assertive on the floor.

I get why folks are focusing on Pat's stats, but I thought he actually was impactful on defense tonight. He did have 2 blocks and looked more aggressive. I didn't like the 0 rb's and his passing up on that open corner 3. Sure Barnes looked better (I picked him up for my fantasy team), but again, he looks like their 2nd playmaker in their scheme where Pat is so obviously schemed to be our corner spot-up floor spacing 5th option. Pat's development aside, I don't expect our or anybody's 5th option to be averaging 10 shots per game. I like him on the floor with DD who looks like a coach on the floor and a supportive guy.

[Michael Jackson]

Bulls got so unlucky here with the 2020 NBA Draft. We were 1 pick away from LaMelo and it was the wrong year to have a #4 pick. Should have moved up.

Picks after Williams all struggling as well.

#5 - Okoro - Nothing special
#6 - Okongwu - Always injured
#7 - Hayes - -5.36 PER this season
#8 - Toppin - Looks like a bust
#9 - Avdija - Nothing special
#10 - Smith - Looks like a bust
#11 - Vassell - Nothing special

Haliburton maybe the exception here but overall it looks like the 2020 Draft was simply not very good which is pretty much what we had all expected.

The most shocking thing about that draft is that Edward’s and LaMelo look good. Prior to that draft it was considered one of the worst draft classes. Pat was a gamble basically with house money as nothing special seemed to be jumping off the board. The 3 before Pat were huge question marks too. Edward’s has likely been the biggest shocker as he has consistently grown. LaMelo just basically is as good as he looked as he could be, but no one believed it because that brother of his was such a bust, lol look at them now. Think their father did them zero favors?

Pat was and is super raw. He is frustrating because he just looks lost. There are big question marks with him every game but he is a way off from being a lost cause yet. His age an inexperience is a valid excuse for sure, but just because it is valid doesn’t mean he is ever going to develop. Clearly we all want to see the guy from summer league or the guy who looked good scrimmaging with pros last year before his first NBA game, but that guy doesn’t show up on an NBA court. At this point though you almost have to sit and wait, unless you find a sure fire trade that is an upgrade involving him.

[CaPiTanAK]

Light a fire under his butt by taking away his mins. If he wants to be a Bogan in this league, let him play 25 mins at the max. Such a waste of space and min for a dude who doesn’t want to excel in this league. I can’t root for guys with Beta mindset.

[DuckIII]

I said it all of last year and my question still exist... What exactly does Patrick Williams do in a nightly basis that warrants him starting every game?

The main thing he does is play for a team with very little competition at his position. Let’s face it, that’s a pretty big part of why he’s still starting.

But I also have a question: I did not see (but will) the last two games. How was his defense (barring rebounding which could not be worse)? I was happy with the way it looked the first two games after how his defense degraded over the course of his rookie year.

[fleet]

I think people are overreacting about Pat. 0 rebounds and 3 shot attempts is not good. But this is a second year player who missed the last month (all of preseason) with an injury. The roster is completely reconstructed and he is now playing an entirely different role and basically hasn't practiced with this team. And let's not pretend he's the only one not rebounding. We only had 28 rebounds as a team. That's putrid, and while Pat definitely needs to carry some of the blame for that, he is the second tallest player in our rotation at 6'7". We need more size.

We should NOT bench him for someone who is already on the roster. We need to trade for a bigger PF who is a rebounder and defender. And we definitely should NOT be including Pat in the trade. Obviously DJJ is the guy to trade and possibly include TBJ.

Let's not lose our minds here.

Fair enough, but hes not 6’7”

[Ice Man]

He's not particularly good at this stage in his career, his game isn't particularly interesting, and I have wasted far too many hours talking about Lauri, Wendell, Hutch, and Gafford, who ended up meaning absolutely zero to the Bulls, present or future. I'll become more engaged if and when Pat can help a team win games.

[Tetlak]

I have high hopes for him but I can't ignore what he's showing us. He doesn't fit our timeline. I'd finally be open to trading him in the right deal, even for a non-star.

[JohnnyTapwater]

Ya'll see Scottie Barnes? Imagine THIS team with THAT motor.

[TheSuzerain]

He's looking like a poor draft pick right now. Just not sure what his strengths are except for perhaps stand-still shooting.

Him not being a physical outlier hurts as well. OG and Barnes make him look pedestrian in that category.

I think he should be trade bait.

[DuckIII]

Trade him for what? A dishwasher and a can of coke?

Exactly. As you can see, lots of fans want immediate satisfaction and do not look at things big picture. They do not weigh values, risks and rewards with a longer term view.

Homosapien is proposing Pat trade packages. But for players who would actually make a legitimate difference like Grant and Siakum. I’d do those absolutely. Those types of trades legitimately enhance our team’s ability to make a run in the East. Hell yeah.

Realistic? Not really.

Pat is yet another in a long line of draft picks whose upside, and the risk/reward attendant to it, is worth far more than his current trade value. The types of guys you could get for Pat: (a) are not good enough to legitimately change the ceiling of our team; and (b) can be picked up every offseason for cheap in free agency.

You simply do not trade a talented 20 year old player for that. Frustrating as it might be you hold on to him, keep developing him, and hope for the best. Even if it ends up in another Lauri situation in which you play it out all the way through his rookie deal and then dump him.