Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[WookieOnRitalin]

I think the main culprit in this situation has A LOT to do with Pat's age and his current role on the roster. Williams is not in a position to shine (like say as he was in Summer League) because, well, the offense does not run through him. We can argue all day about how Pat needs to shine on his own and make himself stand out, but when you're in the position of "teammate" you focus on that. What I see is a kid who is learning how to play with all of these bigger, higher profile player, who are older than he is, and trying to make himself useful.

Pat made some good plays in the Raptors game. He also had some lapses. He's also 20 years old. I am not ready to write him off just yet. From what I read, most people want Williams to be more energetic and active especially on the glass which are not big asks I imagine, but then again, none of us has the privilege of knowing what the coaching staff is telling Williams. These are the guys that the front office has entrusted with this kid's development and a lot of people have had a lot of positive things to say about Williams. My general thought is that all of this seems wildly premature.

I'd wait until January and then you have a better idea of what Williams will look like in this system with this roster.

[HomoSapien]

We should think about benching him. He might need something like that to light a fire under him. 3 shots and 0 rebounds in 26 minutes is unacceptable and embarrassing.

On one hand, you could make the argument that we're 4-0 so if it's not broke don't fix it. But on the other, more realistic hand, at some point when we play against better teams we're going to need some kind of production out of the 4 spot. Any kind of production at all.

The other day when I said he's this team's Keith Bogans I was strictly speaking of his limited role of mostly defense and shooting open 3s and not his statistical output, but he's actually underperforming Bogans so far on a per 36 basis (9, 4, and 3 for Bogans and 9, 3, and 1 for PWill). It's still very early and I don't expect that to keep up, but we can't keep playing 4 on 5 for too much longer and expect to keep winning.

I think the 4-0 is fools gold to an extent. We're playing against bad teams, so we're simply doing what we're expected to do. For me, benching him with the purpose of lighting a fire under him is more important than possibly temporarily disrupting chemistry. If we don't make any more roster upgrades, getting him ready for the playoffs will be key to our post-season success.

There are different ways to develop players. Some players do best if they get a ton of leeway and PT to just learn on the court. Other's need tough love. Pat's timid, and I get the sense that he needs that extra push.

[HomoSapien]

You only bench him if he's actively hurting the team. And by 'actively hurting the team', I mean, are we losing close, winnable games because of him?

So far we're 4-0. Let's see what happens during this gauntlet the next couple weeks. If after the next 10-15 games we're seeing clear evidence of lost games that reasonably could've been won if Green was starting, then we can seriously talk about benching him.

But if we do well on this gauntlet, and the losses are minimal, than I don't see the point in benching him for another role player. If he isn't actively a detriment to our record and our team performance, even if his individual play still isn't great or even good, a public in-season demotion would only serve to humiliate him for no reason. And while that can serve as fuel for some players, for others, it just messes with their heads.

You still do it if it's necessary, if he's hurting the team. But it's too early to make that determination. I think we gotta give it to Thanksgiving at least.

Respectfully, I disagree. We got destroyed on the boards today and he had zero rebounds in 26 minutes at the PF spot. That hurt us, how it could it not?

But regardless, Patrick Williams has started all 74 games of his career and frankly I’m not sure if that’s been a good thing for him. Demoting him, even if it’s just for a few games, might wake him up a little bit. He’s sleep walking out there.

Part of me thinks that, if you have to try to light a fire under a guy just to get him to play with an acceptable level of effort then it's probably a doomed venture from the outset. If a guy isn't playing with any sort of effort in the NBA making millions playing in one of the biggest cities for a good upcoming team with a ton of energy around it then only the player in question can fix that, and only if he wants to.

I understand trying to light a fire under a guy who is merely underperforming, but that's really not the same situation. This goes beyond mere underperformance.

That's definitely a fair point. I'm overwhelmingly pessimistic about Pat's prospects. He really gives me Snell and Lauri vibes. All three of these guys had much more talent than their performances would suggest, and all three were really limited by their personalities and how timid they are.

I do agree with what your skepticism, but I guess my counter-argument would be that it's worth a try because it's too early in the season to seriously pursue a trade.

[MGB8]

Not the person you asked the question to but I think Pat could easily be the centerpiece of a trade for established player on a tanking team. Guys like Christian Wood, Grant from Detroit, or Siakam from the Raptors.

Siakam is on a max deal and cost prohibitive.

Grant probably isn't gettable for anything near reasonable - but even if he was (Pat, Coby, and a first round pick plus a couple of pick swaps) - does Jerami Grant make the Bulls a contender at the level of the Giannis led Bucks or even the Durant-Harden Nets? Would they even be as good as the Trae.Young-Collins-Hunter-Capella-Gallinari-Bogdanovic-LouWilliams-Huerter-Reddish-Gorgui Dieng Hawks?

The deal is precisely why Siakam is gettable though. Because the Raps may be glad to clear the cap space so he won't cost as much in assets.

How do the Bulls get up to matching without (a) losing a core player or (b) going way into lux tax land?

[gardenofsound]

Respectfully, I disagree. We got destroyed on the boards today and he had zero rebounds in 26 minutes at the PF spot. That hurt us, how it could it not?

But regardless, Patrick Williams has started all 74 games of his career and frankly I’m not sure if that’s been a good thing for him. Demoting him, even if it’s just for a few games, might wake him up a little bit. He’s sleep walking out there.

Part of me thinks that, if you have to try to light a fire under a guy just to get him to play with an acceptable level of effort then it's probably a doomed venture from the outset. If a guy isn't playing with any sort of effort in the NBA making millions playing in one of the biggest cities for a good upcoming team with a ton of energy around it then only the player in question can fix that, and only if he wants to.

I understand trying to light a fire under a guy who is merely underperforming, but that's really not the same situation. This goes beyond mere underperformance.

That's definitely a fair point. I'm overwhelmingly pessimistic about Pat's prospects. He really gives me Snell and Lauri vibes. All three of these guys had much more talent than their performances would suggest, and all three were really limited by their personalities and how timid they are.

I do agree with what your skepticism, but I guess my counter-argument would be that it's worth a try because it's too early in the season to seriously pursue a trade.

I know he's under 21, but man, if there were ever a guy who should do the old Ron Artest pre-game and take a couple of shots of brown liquor before a game, it's Patrick. Lose some of the inhibition and go out there to think less, play more.

Either that OR, as mentioned earlier, the Bobby Portis fixation that the opponent slapped his momma.

Just don't do both, because that's how brawls break out.

[ghostinthepost1]

[tweet][/tweet]

Siakam is on a max deal and cost prohibitive.

Grant probably isn't gettable for anything near reasonable - but even if he was (Pat, Coby, and a first round pick plus a couple of pick swaps) - does Jerami Grant make the Bulls a contender at the level of the Giannis led Bucks or even the Durant-Harden Nets? Would they even be as good as the Trae.Young-Collins-Hunter-Capella-Gallinari-Bogdanovic-LouWilliams-Huerter-Reddish-Gorgui Dieng Hawks?

The deal is precisely why Siakam is gettable though. Because the Raps may be glad to clear the cap space so he won't cost as much in assets.

How do the Bulls get up to matching without (a) losing a core player or (b) going way into lux tax land?

Not possible without going into the luxury tax but something like...



The Raptors get to players under 21 who were recently top 7 draft picks plus expirings.

[MGB8]

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The deal is precisely why Siakam is gettable though. Because the Raps may be glad to clear the cap space so he won't cost as much in assets.

How do the Bulls get up to matching without (a) losing a core player or (b) going way into lux tax land?

Not possible without going into the luxury tax but something like...



The Raptors get to players under 21 who were recently top 7 draft picks plus expirings.

Nice job. Tax issues, but at least you got to matching - and the Bulls wouldn't necessarily be taking any extra players back (TO might have to just cut them) - but would need to fill the bench a bit from somewhere.

BTW - I like Siakam a lot, and it's not my money - so if the below could get it done (plus, let's say, the worse of the Bulls or Portland pick)... I'd do it.

I think Siakam would also fit nicely as a modern 5 against the vast majority of matchups (after Vuc moves on). He measured at 6'8.25 in socks with a not great 8'11.5 reach but nice 7'3.25 wingspan. A little more reach and a lot more wingspan than Ben Simmons. WCJ was only 1/2 inch taller (with an inch and a half better reach); Richuan Homes was the same height, less wingspan, 1/2 inch better reach... so, while undersized, he's passable at the 5 (against most, not all) long term.

[TheFinishSniper]

AKME needs to work those phones in coming months. He needs to find us a deal and pull some kind of black magic over some GMs and get us someone like Grant or Siakam. I just hope NBA aint taking our 1st rounder because that is gonna be major part why Pat Williams will have new home.

[ChettheJet]

What I saw was once again Patrick clutched on an open 3pt shot and Billy took him out for Brown as soon as the play stopped. I hope it was deliberate and he told him, when you've got the shot YOU take that shot. Because it's not just that he can make shots, but when he gives the ball up when he's open, defenses can see it on film and slack off of him because they know he's reluctant to shoot. He's got to draw the defense so somebody else is one on one and can make a play.

[sco]

AKME needs to work those phones in coming months. He needs to find us a deal and pull some kind of black magic over some GMs and get us someone like Grant or Siakam. I just hope NBA aint taking our 1st rounder because that is gonna be major part why Pat Williams will have new home.

I just don't see us having the assets for another allstar without including one of our big 3 plus Pat/Coby, which isn't happening, IMO. Also, for the same reason that Pat isn't getting a lot of offensive opportunities, another high utilization guy isn't what we need. We need a guy like Taj (who likely won't be available) or Theis, but a solid defensive vet PF who rebounds and blocks shots but isn't a Hutch on offense. And even with those guys, you lose the 3pt spacing.

[eierluke]

To those, who say that his rebounding/ the lack of doesn't hurt: The Bulls are 29th as a team in rebounding at 41.

[HomoSapien]

Siakam has to be one of the top targets. He's youngish, he's good, fills our weakest spot, and he theoretically is the odd man out in Toronto based on where they are in their rebuild and who they have. The better Barnes plays, the more likely he becomes expendable and a package of Williams, White, and a pick seems solid (although will seem less solid if Williams doesn't pick up his play and Coby looks shakey after his injury).

Also, Siakam has championship experience. I think that's important, given that our big three doesn't have the greatest playoff experience. Siakam and Caruso, even if they're not older vets, can help our composure.

[PlayerUp]

To those, who say that his rebounding/ the lack of doesn't hurt: The Bulls are 29th as a team in rebounding at 41.

Well when your starting PF grabs 0 rebounds there lies your problem.

[PlayerUp]

Siakam has to be one of the top targets. He's youngish, he's good, fills our weakest spot, and he theoretically is the odd man out in Toronto based on where they are in their rebuild and who they have. The better Barnes plays, the more likely he becomes expendable and a package of Williams, White, and a pick seems solid (although will seem less solid if Williams doesn't pick up his play and Coby looks shakey after his injury).

Also, Siakam has championship experience. I think that's important, given that our big three doesn't have the greatest playoff experience. Siakam and Caruso, even if they're not older vets, can help our composure.

Not sure Toronto is in rebuild mode yet, more of retool mode. OG, Siakim, Barnes. They have a decent core. Just need a #1 option.

[sco]

To those, who say that his rebounding/ the lack of doesn't hurt: The Bulls are 29th as a team in rebounding at 41.

that said, we're tied for 28th in FG attempted at 85, 14 attempts a game behind the league-leading Hornets, but we are tied for 8th in FG%...so there are fewer RB's to be had.

[Darius Miles Davis]

Siakam has to be one of the top targets. He's youngish, he's good, fills our weakest spot, and he theoretically is the odd man out in Toronto based on where they are in their rebuild and who they have. The better Barnes plays, the more likely he becomes expendable and a package of Williams, White, and a pick seems solid (although will seem less solid if Williams doesn't pick up his play and Coby looks shakey after his injury).

Also, Siakam has championship experience. I think that's important, given that our big three doesn't have the greatest playoff experience. Siakam and Caruso, even if they're not older vets, can help our composure.

I don't know how we would ever get salaries to match. Vooch, Lavine DeRozan, Lonzo, and Caruso would be off the table. All together, Derrick Jones, Pat Williams, Coby White, and Troy Brown aren't enough salary for a Siakam deal.

[HomoSapien]

Siakam has to be one of the top targets. He's youngish, he's good, fills our weakest spot, and he theoretically is the odd man out in Toronto based on where they are in their rebuild and who they have. The better Barnes plays, the more likely he becomes expendable and a package of Williams, White, and a pick seems solid (although will seem less solid if Williams doesn't pick up his play and Coby looks shakey after his injury).

Also, Siakam has championship experience. I think that's important, given that our big three doesn't have the greatest playoff experience. Siakam and Caruso, even if they're not older vets, can help our composure.

I don't know how we would ever get salaries to match. Vooch, Lavine DeRozan, Lonzo, and Caruso would be off the table. All together, Derrick Jones, Pat Williams, Coby White, and Troy Brown aren't enough salary for a Siakam deal.

Per ESPN Trade Machine that works for Siakam and Dalano Banton. They would then either need to waive Decker and Bonga (both are on 1 year deals) or send them to a third team.

[TheFinishSniper]

Siakam has to be one of the top targets. He's youngish, he's good, fills our weakest spot, and he theoretically is the odd man out in Toronto based on where they are in their rebuild and who they have. The better Barnes plays, the more likely he becomes expendable and a package of Williams, White, and a pick seems solid (although will seem less solid if Williams doesn't pick up his play and Coby looks shakey after his injury).

Also, Siakam has championship experience. I think that's important, given that our big three doesn't have the greatest playoff experience. Siakam and Caruso, even if they're not older vets, can help our composure.

I don't know how we would ever get salaries to match. Vooch, Lavine DeRozan, Lonzo, and Caruso would be off the table. All together, Derrick Jones, Pat Williams, Coby White, and Troy Brown aren't enough salary for a Siakam deal.

We are not over cap so we can take more salary in return. We can also get 3rd team if needed to consolidate trade. Main issue is Bulls from next year are in luxury tax. But when we extend Lavine we wont be able to add anyone on roster either way. So why not improve team before it.

[DeseanPrince]

Siakam has to be one of the top targets. He's youngish, he's good, fills our weakest spot, and he theoretically is the odd man out in Toronto based on where they are in their rebuild and who they have. The better Barnes plays, the more likely he becomes expendable and a package of Williams, White, and a pick seems solid (although will seem less solid if Williams doesn't pick up his play and Coby looks shakey after his injury).

Also, Siakam has championship experience. I think that's important, given that our big three doesn't have the greatest playoff experience. Siakam and Caruso, even if they're not older vets, can help our composure.

I don't know how we would ever get salaries to match. Vooch, Lavine DeRozan, Lonzo, and Caruso would be off the table. All together, Derrick Jones, Pat Williams, Coby White, and Troy Brown aren't enough salary for a Siakam deal.

Grant is more realistic. DJJ, TBJ, Pat and Portland first isn’t a bad deal for Grant who has two years left and is already 27. Detroit is actually an ideal place for Pat to develop and fits their timeline with Cade and the rest of their young guys. We make that trade then trade Bradley, Marko or Alize for a useful big and this squad might be legit contenders.

[Repeat 3-peat]

Rambles:

One. The Bulls are not trading Pat, especially for a bigger salary player that may not fit(sorry, Grant isn't it IMO), and ownership is not going to pay a "ridiculous" amount of luxury tax for a team that won't contend for a championship.

Two: There is no excuse for Pats lack of rebounding. He has the physical ability so I have no idea what is going on there. His offense I have no problem with other than passing up wide open shots. He's the 5th option on offense, so the numbers won't be there, and honestly the offense as a whole still has a work to do.

Overall, I think it's a comfort issue for PW at this early point of the season. He's a team oriented player that is finding his place. I'd keep him as a starter but playing him with DD with the bench is ideal, put him in a situation where he has to force the action a bit.