LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

[KPT1867]

Before anyone attacks me, I want to say that this surprised me! I also want to say that I am equally a fan of both. Literally both of them have torched my teams repeatedly.

But while I was stuck inside during COVID for most of last year and part of this year, I decided to do a little research. I first, estimate how much they mean to their team's Net Rtg, then secondly I subtract that subtrahend from the Net rating to get a differenced Net Rtg. Lastly, I estimate the probability of a team with the differenced Net Rtg can win the observed number of games or more games, given they play the same number of games.

What's interesting, I found that it was slightly more impressive that LeBron James led the 2015 Cavaliers to 2 wins against the Warriors than Michael Jordan leading the 96 Bulls to 4 wins in 6 games against the Seattle Supersonics. This added to the fact, that James had more Final's appearances made it so that they were equally as impressive.

I'd love to share my slide-deck with anyone who is interested. Private message me, so I can email them to you.

[Texas Chuck]

It's objectively more impressive. I don't think there is really much question about that.

[falcolombardi]

everyone would prefer to win 6 rings to 4 so that would be the greater accomplishment

but evaluating them only by their amount of rings or finals record would be wrong in the first place

accolades/rings on their own should be at most a rough proxy for how good a player was

[PicPock]

Before anyone attacks me, I want to say that this surprised me! I also want to say that I am equally a fan of both. Literally both of them have torched my teams repeatedly.

But while I was stuck inside during COVID for most of last year and part of this year, I decided to do a little research. I first, estimate how much they mean to their team's Net Rtg, then secondly I subtract that subtrahend from the Net rating to get a differenced Net Rtg. Lastly, I estimate the probability of a team with the differenced Net Rtg can win the observed number of games or more games, given they play the same number of games.

What's interesting, I found that it was slightly more impressive that LeBron James led the 2015 Cavaliers to 2 wins against the Warriors than Michael Jordan leading the 96 Bulls to 4 wins in 6 games against the Seattle Supersonics. This added to the fact, that James had more Final's appearances made it so that they were equally as impressive.

I'd love to share my slide-deck with anyone who is interested. Private message me, so I can email them to you.

Your estimation is quite confusing after 3lts of beer. I ll come back tomorrow.

[Dr Positivity]

I'd take 2 more rings over 4 more finals, but if Lebron got to 5-6 it would be enough to flip it. Neither player should be judged on this though.

[Colbinii]

I'd take 2 more rings over 4 more finals, but if Lebron got to 5-6 it would be enough to flip it. Neither player should be judged on this though.

I'd much prefer Carlos Boozer's career over Udonis Haslem's though.

At the end of the day what we would want to be as players isn't how we should be judging players.

RE Thread: It doesn't make sense in the first place to compare Finals records. The players played on different rosters, different coaches and against vastly different opposition in the Finals.

[LakerLegend]

It's objectively more impressive. I don't think there is really much question about that.

Feel free to explain why then.

[Lost92Bricks]

Nah, you're not accounting for the level of players Lebron has played with. Like Kyrie's 2016 Final performance. Jordan never played with anyone capable of playing on that level under pressure.

[trickshot]

I wouldn't open that can of worms by calling it better but I'll agree it's almost as impressive. 6 finals losses still means you came 2nd when you weren't winning, no in betweens. I mean is it really better to lose to Phoenix in the first round?

Outside of 11 and 20 it's been an amazing resume of dynasty level finals opponents and a better resume of playoff opponents than many realise. Lebron has played all but one of the handful of teams in Nba history with 4 players named to the all star team in one season.

[jdzimme3]

In a vacuum, maybe. But would you rather build a dynasty through hard work, drive and determination. Leading the teams development and evolution. Breaking through and beating your nemesis. Or, team up with some other stars a few times and win 4 titles without ever developing a team into dynasty. Giving up on teams in favor of a stacked deck. Personal preference I guess.

[Colbinii]

In a vacuum, maybe. But would you rather build a dynasty through hard work, drive and determination.

Depends if you get Phil Jackson or Mike Brown.

Leading the teams development and evolution.

Is Jordan a player development coach?

Breaking through and beating your nemesis.

The Pistons were significantly worse in 1991 compared to 1990.

Or, team up with some other stars a few times and win 4 titles without ever developing a team into dynasty. Giving up on teams in favor of a stacked deck. Personal preference I guess.

Stacked Deck yet still played better teams in the Finals than his own in 2007, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Not really "stacking the deck"...or maybe LeBron James isn't good at card games.

[jdzimme3]

In a vacuum, maybe. But would you rather build a dynasty through hard work, drive and determination.

Depends if you get Phil Jackson or Mike Brown.

Jordan changed his role to fit Phil’s vision. If jordan took lebrons approach and demanded he call all the shots there may have never been a bulls dynasty.

Leading the teams development and evolution.

Is Jordan a player development coach?

Are saying that players cant contribute to their teammates development? You don’t think Scottie and others were driven by jordan?

Breaking through and beating your nemesis.

The Pistons were significantly worse in 1991 compared to 1990.

Maybe, doesn’t change anything in my mind. That isn’t Jordan’s fault.

Or, team up with some other stars a few times and win 4 titles without ever developing a team into dynasty. Giving up on teams in favor of a stacked deck. Personal preference I guess.

Stacked Deck yet still played better teams in the Finals than his own in 2007, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Not really "stacking the deck"...or maybe LeBron James isn't good at card games.

Lebron was the preseason favorite to win the championship more often than jordan was. You can’t believe that he is satisfied with only 4 titles considering everything. And yes, I know about injuries, Lebron has been hurt by and helped by them just like every other player.

[jalengreen]

In a vacuum, maybe. But would you rather build a dynasty through hard work, drive and determination. Leading the teams development and evolution. Breaking through and beating your nemesis. Or, team up with some other stars a few times and win 4 titles without ever developing a team into dynasty. Giving up on teams in favor of a stacked deck. Personal preference I guess.

lebron's team has been the betting favorite in three finals (2011 2013 2020). for reference, jordan's team was the favorite in all six of his appearances. i dont really see how lebron has stacked his deck tbh.

****, dude just went out of his way to trade for westbrook. think he's doing the opposite at this point /s

[jdzimme3]

In a vacuum, maybe. But would you rather build a dynasty through hard work, drive and determination. Leading the teams development and evolution. Breaking through and beating your nemesis. Or, team up with some other stars a few times and win 4 titles without ever developing a team into dynasty. Giving up on teams in favor of a stacked deck. Personal preference I guess.

lebron's team has been the betting favorite in three finals (2011 2013 2020). for reference, jordan's team was the favorite in all six of his appearances. i dont really see how lebron has stacked his deck tbh.

****, dude just went out of his way to trade for westbrook. think he's doing the opposite at this point /s

Betting favorites in the finals. Interesting that they were betting favorites more frequently in the preseason (6 times coming into this year). Almost like they under performed.

[zimpy27]

I guess another way to think about it is if two players were to win 4 championships.

Would it be more impressive to go on to win 6 more conference championships but lose in the finals each time OR would it be more impressive to go on to 2 more conference championships and win both?

[DQuinn1575]

I guess another way to think about it is if two players were to win 4 championships.

Would it be more impressive to go on to win 6 more conference championships but lose in the finals each time OR would it be more impressive to go on to 2 more conference championships and win both?

So 0-6 would be like Elgin Baylor (0-7)
2-0 would be Hakeem.

[jalengreen]

In a vacuum, maybe. But would you rather build a dynasty through hard work, drive and determination. Leading the teams development and evolution. Breaking through and beating your nemesis. Or, team up with some other stars a few times and win 4 titles without ever developing a team into dynasty. Giving up on teams in favor of a stacked deck. Personal preference I guess.

lebron's team has been the betting favorite in three finals (2011 2013 2020). for reference, jordan's team was the favorite in all six of his appearances. i dont really see how lebron has stacked his deck tbh.

****, dude just went out of his way to trade for westbrook. think he's doing the opposite at this point /s

Betting favorites in the finals. Interesting that they were betting favorites more frequently in the preseason (6 times coming into this year). Almost like they under performed.

yes, going into a season it's a pretty safe bet that lebron james will be in the finals especially in an easier conference, so it's not at all surprising for his team to be favored at the time while teams like the 2014 spurs and 2015 warriors were more of a question mark

bulls were preseason favorites five times (and top ten in 94 and 95 despite jordan's retirement).

and in two of the seasons lebron was the preseason favorite, his team suffered from significant postseason injuries (2015 & 2021)

[No-more-rings]

Finals records don’t really interest me much, to me it’s more important how they actually performed. Jordan is the better finals performer, but Lebron’s arguably better in their conference performances.

[zimpy27]

I guess another way to think about it is if two players were to win 4 championships.

Would it be more impressive to go on to win 6 more conference championships but lose in the finals each time OR would it be more impressive to go on to 2 more conference championships and win both?

So 0-6 would be like Elgin Baylor (0-7)
2-0 would be Hakeem.

If you were to ignore the 4 championships already won. It would probably be something like the career of Elgin Baylor vs Willis Reed.

[G35]

Jerry West finals record 1-8

Only player to win FMVP on the losing team

https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/features/00016601.html#:~:text=Jerry%20West%20could%20have%20played,but%20championships%20never%20defined%20him.

He averaged 29.1 points in the postseason, second all-time only to Michael Jordan's 33.4.

West never played a perfect game, but that didn't keep him from trying. He made one of the most memorable shots in history, a game-tying 60-footer against the New York Knicks in the 1970 Finals, but was reluctant to talk about it. The Lakers lost in overtime, and the outcome was West's bottom line.

West was renowned for his ability to overcome injuries -- he broke his nose at least eight times -- and perform under pressure. When Baylor got hurt in the opener of the '65 Western Division finals, West scored 40 or more points in all six games (averaging 46.3, a record for a playoff series) to lead the Lakers past the Baltimore Bullets. He averaged 40.6 points that postseason.

In the '69 Finals, he averaged 37.9 points against Boston and was voted the MVP. Three decades later, no other player from a losing team has yet to be so honored.

If it is about how you played and not winning then no one did it better than Jerry West.....