LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

[falcolombardi]

Nah, you're not accounting for the level of players Lebron has played with. Like Kyrie's 2016 Final performance. Jordan never played with anyone capable of playing on that level under pressure.

if you mean exckusively -scoring- performance for some reason then yeah, maybe

if you mean player quality overall then pippen was better than kyrie almost any season you pick

2011-2012 wade and 2020 davis would be the players better than pippen lebron has played with

[dcstanley]

Nah, you're not accounting for the level of players Lebron has played with. Like Kyrie's 2016 Final performance. Jordan never played with anyone capable of playing on that level under pressure.

On average, Jordan played on better teams than Lebron against inferior competition.

In a vacuum, maybe. But would you rather build a dynasty through hard work, drive and determination. Leading the teams development and evolution. Breaking through and beating your nemesis. Or, team up with some other stars a few times and win 4 titles without ever developing a team into dynasty. Giving up on teams in favor of a stacked deck. Personal preference I guess.

lebron's team has been the betting favorite in three finals (2011 2013 2020). for reference, jordan's team was the favorite in all six of his appearances. i dont really see how lebron has stacked his deck tbh.

****, dude just went out of his way to trade for westbrook. think he's doing the opposite at this point /s

Betting favorites in the finals. Interesting that they were betting favorites more frequently in the preseason (6 times coming into this year). Almost like they under performed.

Lebron had quite a few seasons derailed due to injuries. The rosters that Lebron had by the end of the 2014, 2015, and 2021 seasons would not be preseason favorites.

[KPT1867]

When I made this original post, I was hoping there would be more interest in how I came up with this result. I’m saying from a probability perspective, they are very close.

Feel free to private message me, I’ll send you my methods

[Statlanta]

Maybe. Shaquille Oneal regularly switched teams and is 4-2(same amount of attempts as Jordan worse record). I respect his runs more because he didn't go to superteams. Neither the Heat or Lakers had All-Star level players when he joined.

[PistolPeteJR]

In a vacuum, maybe. But would you rather build a dynasty through hard work, drive and determination.

Depends if you get Phil Jackson or Mike Brown.

Jordan changed his role to fit Phil’s vision. If jordan took lebrons approach and demanded he call all the shots there may have never been a bulls dynasty.

Leading the teams development and evolution.

Is Jordan a player development coach?

Are saying that players cant contribute to their teammates development? You don’t think Scottie and others were driven by jordan?

Breaking through and beating your nemesis.

The Pistons were significantly worse in 1991 compared to 1990.

Maybe, doesn’t change anything in my mind. That isn’t Jordan’s fault.

Or, team up with some other stars a few times and win 4 titles without ever developing a team into dynasty. Giving up on teams in favor of a stacked deck. Personal preference I guess.

Stacked Deck yet still played better teams in the Finals than his own in 2007, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Not really "stacking the deck"...or maybe LeBron James isn't good at card games.

Lebron was the preseason favorite to win the championship more often than jordan was. You can’t believe that he is satisfied with only 4 titles considering everything. And yes, I know about injuries, Lebron has been hurt by and helped by them just like every other player.

I'm not arguing for or against OP, but this is a terrible argument.

[PistolPeteJR]

Maybe. Shaquille Oneal regularly switched teams and is 4-2(same amount of attempts as Jordan worse record). I respect his runs more because he didn't go to superteams. Neither the Heat or Lakers had All-Star level players when he joined.

I’m not sure LeBron leaves Orlando if he had Penny, Scott, Anderson, Grant, etc.

At least lend context to the situation.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm amazed people base their evaluations of a player's ability and their accomplishments primarily on whether or not they like if and how they changed teams. As if that has any relevance to any of this.

Kobe isn't great because he stayed a Laker for 20 years. Mike isn't great because he stayed with the Bulls through his relevant years. Lebron isn't trash because he took advantage of the CBA allowing for free agency and choosing the team he wished to play on.

And what always gets lost is he went to a terrible Cavs team. He went to a terrible Lakers team. You only think of those teams as Super because Lebron went there and played like the best player in the world. And somehow we credit Mike for making Pippen(he didn't of course) but we discredit Lebron for being able to lure other stars to come play with him? Like this is bad? And we ignore all the winning Lebron has done with teams that had far less talent than Mike had every year. We just focus on the shiny names?

What is the point of any of that? If you want to root for Mike more because you really value staying on one team and you want to root against Lebron because you view him as some sort of mercenary? Great. Awesome. You get to root for whomever you want for whatever reason you want.

But if you come on a board and use your personal preferences to decide which accomplishment counts and which ones don't? What value is there in that? You need everyone to love what you love? Hate what you hate?

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm amazed people base their evaluations of a player's ability and their accomplishments primarily on whether or not they like if and how they changed teams. As if that has any relevance to any of this.

Kobe isn't great because he stayed a Laker for 20 years. Mike isn't great because he stayed with the Bulls through his relevant years. Lebron isn't trash because he took advantage of the CBA allowing for free agency and choosing the team he wished to play on.

And what always gets lost is he went to a terrible Cavs team. He went to a terrible Lakers team. You only think of those teams as Super because Lebron went there and played like the best player in the world. And somehow we credit Mike for making Pippen(he didn't of course) but we discredit Lebron for being able to lure other stars to come play with him? Like this is bad? And we ignore all the winning Lebron has done with teams that had far less talent than Mike had every year. We just focus on the shiny names?

What is the point of any of that? If you want to root for Mike more because you really value staying on one team and you want to root against Lebron because you view him as some sort of mercenary? Great. Awesome. You get to root for whomever you want for whatever reason you want.

But if you come on a board and use your personal preferences to decide which accomplishment counts and which ones don't? What value is there in that? You need everyone to love what you love? Hate what you hate?

Yes I agree with all of that. Like I generally support LeBron since I'm a Cavs fan and have been aware of LeBron since he was a freshman that led his team to a state title(also from Akron) so it's been fun to watch his journey since then. I also can understand why some people don't like him on a personal level because at the end of the day he's human and he sometimes does things I don't like either. It's just that none of that has anything to do with how good he is at bb. I also hate it when people don't give proper credit for him playing in 8 straight finals while missing maybe 5 rs games per year and playing in 4 rounds of playoffs in order to do it while doing legit carry jobs in probably around half of those runs which has never been done in the history of the league. Really nothing close even comparing it to the 60's Celtics who were mostly only playing 2 rounds of playoffs. Plus Olympic games that got squeezed in a couple times.

[jdzimme3]

Depends if you get Phil Jackson or Mike Brown.

Jordan changed his role to fit Phil’s vision. If jordan took lebrons approach and demanded he call all the shots there may have never been a bulls dynasty.



Is Jordan a player development coach?

Are saying that players cant contribute to their teammates development? You don’t think Scottie and others were driven by jordan?



The Pistons were significantly worse in 1991 compared to 1990.

Maybe, doesn’t change anything in my mind. That isn’t Jordan’s fault.



Stacked Deck yet still played better teams in the Finals than his own in 2007, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Not really "stacking the deck"...or maybe LeBron James isn't good at card games.

Lebron was the preseason favorite to win the championship more often than jordan was. You can’t believe that he is satisfied with only 4 titles considering everything. And yes, I know about injuries, Lebron has been hurt by and helped by them just like every other player.

I'm not arguing for or against OP, but this is a terrible argument.

What is more indicative of stacking the deck than being a preseason favorite. Not meeting expectations is pretty telling. I am not willing to chalk up all Lebron failures to injuries while ignoring the times when he ha similarly benefited. Dude is an amazing all time great but his legacy isn’t close to jordan.

[Asianiac_24]

Stacked Deck yet still played better teams in the Finals than his own in 2007, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Not really "stacking the deck"...or maybe LeBron James isn't good at card games.

By preseason odds, LeBron's team was favorite over the Spurs/Warriors in 2014, 2015, 2016.

To answer the OP though, I think LeBron is more impressive and the better basketball player for longer periods of time. 89-93 MJ is amazing, but that's 5 years of amazing player value. LeBron has about 10 years that matches that level (09-10, 12-18)

[jdzimme3]

I'm amazed people base their evaluations of a player's ability and their accomplishments primarily on whether or not they like if and how they changed teams. As if that has any relevance to any of this.

Kobe isn't great because he stayed a Laker for 20 years. Mike isn't great because he stayed with the Bulls through his relevant years. Lebron isn't trash because he took advantage of the CBA allowing for free agency and choosing the team he wished to play on.

And what always gets lost is he went to a terrible Cavs team. He went to a terrible Lakers team. You only think of those teams as Super because Lebron went there and played like the best player in the world. And somehow we credit Mike for making Pippen(he didn't of course) but we discredit Lebron for being able to lure other stars to come play with him? Like this is bad? And we ignore all the winning Lebron has done with teams that had far less talent than Mike had every year. We just focus on the shiny names?

What is the point of any of that? If you want to root for Mike more because you really value staying on one team and you want to root against Lebron because you view him as some sort of mercenary? Great. Awesome. You get to root for whomever you want for whatever reason you want.

But if you come on a board and use your personal preferences to decide which accomplishment counts and which ones don't? What value is there in that? You need everyone to love what you love? Hate what you hate?

Yes I agree with all of that. Like I generally support LeBron since I'm a Cavs fan and have been aware of LeBron since he was a freshman that led his team to a state title(also from Akron) so it's been fun to watch his journey since then. I also can understand why some people don't like him on a personal level because at the end of the day he's human and he sometimes does things I don't like either. It's just that none of that has anything to do with how good he is at bb. I also hate it when people don't give proper credit for him playing in 8 straight finals while missing maybe 5 rs games per year and playing in 4 rounds of playoffs in order to do it while doing legit carry jobs in probably around half of those runs which has never been done in the history of the league. Really nothing close even comparing it to the 60's Celtics who were mostly only playing 2 rounds of playoffs.

It’s almost like Kevin love and Anthony Davis don’t exist

[henshao]

[*]

I guess another way to think about it is if two players were to win 4 championships.

Would it be more impressive to go on to win 6 more conference championships but lose in the finals each time OR would it be more impressive to go on to 2 more conference championships and win both?

So 0-6 would be like Elgin Baylor (0-7)
2-0 would be Hakeem.

illuminative of how's Hakeem's non-peak career is generally viewed. he is 2-1 in the finals

[Cavsfansince84]

It’s almost like Kevin love and Anthony Davis don’t exist

Not sure where you are coming from with that comment. AD wasn't part of the 8 straight run and Kevin Love was barely part of the 2015 run(injured in the first round) and was generally bad as a playoff performer(especially in the finals).

[jdzimme3]

It’s almost like Kevin love and Anthony Davis don’t exist

Not sure where you are coming from with that comment. AD wasn't part of the 8 straight run and Kevin Love was barely part of the 2015 run(injured in the first round) and was generally bad as a playoff performer(especially in the finals).

When someone says Lebron joined trash Lakers and cavs teams and fails to mention the other stars that joined with him it is an obvious attempt to over credit Lebron.

[jdzimme3]

It’s almost like Kevin love and Anthony Davis don’t exist

Not sure where you are coming from with that comment. AD wasn't part of the 8 straight run and Kevin Love was barely part of the 2015 run(injured in the first round) and was generally bad as a playoff performer(especially in the finals).

When someone says Lebron joined trash Lakers and cavs teams and fails to mention the other stars that joined with him it is an obvious attempt to over credit Lebron.

Heck it would be more accurate to say AD joined a trash Lakers team that Lebron was already on

[Cavsfansince84]

Not sure where you are coming from with that comment. AD wasn't part of the 8 straight run and Kevin Love was barely part of the 2015 run(injured in the first round) and was generally bad as a playoff performer(especially in the finals).

When someone says Lebron joined trash Lakers and cavs teams and fails to mention the other stars that joined with him it is an obvious attempt to over credit Lebron.

Heck it would be more accurate to say AD joined a trash Lakers team that Lebron was already on

Well, when he said went to a terrible Cavs team I took it to mean 04 though he may have meant 15 as well though I'd agree that LeBron knew they would compete when he went there. The Lakers isn't even worth arguing about for me personally. They obviously were terrible when he went there then improved a lot by adding AD.

[thebigbird]

Maybe. Shaquille Oneal regularly switched teams and is 4-2(same amount of attempts as Jordan worse record). I respect his runs more because he didn't go to superteams. Neither the Heat or Lakers had All-Star level players when he joined.

Oh yeah all those all-star level players on the 2018 Lakers when LeBron joined

[twyzted]

I guess another way to think about it is if two players were to win 4 championships.

Would it be more impressive to go on to win 6 more conference championships but lose in the finals each time OR would it be more impressive to go on to 2 more conference championships and win both?

Well if we are talking about winning 6 titles in 8 years vs winning 4 in 10 years.

6 in 8 is more impressive.
Not that 4 titles in 10 isnt impressive because it is.

[Cavsfansince84]

I guess another way to think about it is if two players were to win 4 championships.

Would it be more impressive to go on to win 6 more conference championships but lose in the finals each time OR would it be more impressive to go on to 2 more conference championships and win both?

Well if we are talking about winning 6 titles in 8 years vs winning 4 in 10 years.

6 in 8 is more impressive.
Not that 4 titles in 10 isnt impressive because it is.

Putting it in that way is sort of disingenuous though given the overall context of the thread and I don't even care which one people find to be more impressive. In the context of the thread we are specifically comparing MJ going to 6 finals in 8 years and winning all 6, with a two year gap in the middle where he was retired to LeBron playing in 10 finals over a 14 year span and winning 4 of them. So it's basically 10 finals runs in total being compared to MJ's 6.

[Frosty]

The East was often pretty weak and Lebron played with some pretty decent help. I’m not sure the number of times he made it out of that conference are that impressive.