Steve Nash believes James Harden is unfairly treated by the new rules

[Marrrcuss]

8 pages in and no vids or examples of harden being reffed unfairly this season. If those claims are being made I want to see evidence.

This board is heavy on Curry fans and also people that dislike Harden.

Many are happy, even if he was treated unfairly.

[JN61]

You guys realize in about 10 20 minutes you can see every field goal Harden's taken this year right?

No need to speculate, no need to say people don't watch the games. Just here is every shot in each game. Judge for yourself.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022100044&PlayerID=201935&RangeType=0&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612751&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100035&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100021&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100001&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0012100056&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Pre%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

So since I know you aren't arguing with a good faith I took time to analyze every. single. FGA. in those links. No contact also includes not landing in his shooting space:

vs WIZARDS:
1. Harden barrels right into the chest of the defender. There is very light contact but defender is vertical and doesn't extend his arms sideways. This is classic no call because there is no call. These aren't called 9/10 times in the NBA.
2. Very similar play, if you want to call literally the smallest things be my guest.
3. Stepback brick. No contact what so ever.
4. Driving layup no contact at all. Made it
5. Driving layup. Bertans goes vertical and there is no contact.. misses
6. Another Driving layups. Zero contact.
7. Driving layup. No contact
8. Stepback brick. Zero contact.
9. Driving layup. Basically no contact. Just Harden'esque weird stop and swing ball around but never hits defender with his arms or body. Miss
10. Catch and shoot 3. BRICK no contact
11. another BRICK 3. No contact
12. Flat footed brick 3. NO CONTACT...?!?!?!? What is the point of moaning if all he does is this?
13. Stepback 3. Defender lands in his space and is correctly called
14. Another driving layup. Defender gives up because he doesn't want to get a foul called on him. Harden misses
15. 3 pointer. No contact. Brick
16. 3 pointed BRICK. no contact....
17. Not shown on the video so who knows..


Conclusion is Harden was very passive and just missing 3 point shots. Wizards also played very well and went vertical or didn't jump at all on his layups. There was maybe 1 missed call under last year's rules but considering rules this year there was no missed calls.


HORNETS:
1. Screen. 3 Pointer. Basically no real contest either. Just bricks it.
2. Tear drop. Zero contest. Misses
3. Guy just hangs on his side there is no real contact. Harden makes the shot.
4. Loong 3 point shot. made. Zero contact
5. Mildly contested 3 point shot. Harden instantly acts like he was touched which probably resulted the miss. There was 0 Contact. BRICK
6. Another Harden driving layup. Basically throw arms into defender's face. But there is no contact and Harden misses. Maybe he should try make the shot instead of fishing for fouls when defender isn't really even that close to him?
7. Stepback 3. Contested, makes it.
8. Same play. Different spot. BRICK
9. Driving layup. I see zero contact. Both defenders have arms up not trying to foul. Phantom call and this is very questionable and I would bet anyone but Harden wouldn't get this call at all. He makes it though.
10. Harden misses tear drop. There wasn't any contact.
11. Another stepback 3.... You see the pattern here? And of course it is a no contact BRICK!!!
12. These type of plays are always questionable but 9/10 times these doesn't get called. Harden makes teardrop and after shot is halfway through he lands into Plumlee who is waiting him in his vertical position. I think all after plays are pretty much no calls these days. Harden makes the shot so that's something...
13. Step back 3... We know already... BRICK (no contact obviously)
14. Bridges challenges vertical (perfect vertical challenge) Harden misses.
15. Putback from the previous play. He makes it, no contact
16. Another stepback 3... However this time something new! It doesn't even hit the rim! No contact obviously...

So Hornets played him well. Basically didn't foul him at all in the clips showed here. Absolutely no issues here Harden just bricking 3 pointers.... If you want fouls maybe don't shoot step back 3s?


Sixers.. This is getting old...
1. Stepback 3 pointer. Brick. Considering ref is literally next to them watching his feet Embiid doesn't land close enough for it to be considered Harden's space, Harden just flops down. Absolutely should never be called and isn't called here.
2. Driving layup. Makes it. No contact at all.
3. Catch and shoot 3 brick. no contact..
4. Floater no contact. Makes it
5. This is questionable bump but very light. This is 50/50 play in NBA but this year nobody is getting benefit of this call.
6. Another floater. Misses. No contact.
7. Stepback. Makes it. No contact
8. Floater. No contact. misses.
9. Stepback. makes it. no contact.
10. Floater. Just wide open miss.
11. Harden takes offensive rebound. Actually fouls defender by shoving him with his forearm to clear out the space for rebound and makes the shot. Gets away with the murder.
12. Typical Harden in traffic drive. Put ball into defender's face. There is no contact but Maxey perfectly backs down and in process basically almost blocks the shot. But Harden rolls it in regardless.
13. Embiid blocks harden. There is no contact.
14. Curry with aggressive defense but just in time pulls hand away from Harden foul baiting. No contact. Bricked 3.
15. Wide open 3. Makes it
16. Wild out of control drive. Harden misses it and tries to bait for fouls even though there was really nobody there to contest him, Drummond late to rotate.
17. corner 3. Wide open miss.


Already hating myself for putting up with this garbage... Makes me think you are the one who never watched his games... There was one play which was 50/50. Almost all of these ones were no defenders nearby him.

Bucks
1. Wide open 3. Brick
2. Another brick 3. Contested by Giannis and loser Harden tries to push him from back on Giannis dunk after Harden brick...
3. This is questionable call. Holiday is inside the restricted area. Goes vertical and mass of Harden just moves him away. Made the shot. This could've easily been a foul.
4. Floater. Made. No contact.
5. Dribble happy 3 pointed. Made it. No contact
6. Stepback 3 with a twist of a flop. Made it. Zero contact.
7. Another stepback 3. Made it. No contact
8. Stepback 3. Brick. No contact
9. Floater. Wide open. Miss.
10. Same play. No contact. Miss.
11. Rebounds the miss. Misses the wide open putback. No contact
12. 2nd offensive rebound. Thannes blocks him. 0 contact
13. Stepback flop. No contact. Made it.
14. 3 pointer. Miss. No contact.
15. Layup. Absolutely no contact apart of Harden trying to fish for it and flailing his arms.
16. Harden blocked. No contact. Miss


Twolves:
1. Layup. No contact. MIsses
2. This could've been foul last year. Not called this year. Nobody is getting this.
3. Makes layup. No contact to warrant a whistle.
4. stepback 3. made it. no contact
5. Wide open 3. Miss.
6. Refs didn't call offensive foul push on the drive. Misses the shot
7. stepback 3. Miss. No contact


So the conclusion is. He is just bricking stepback 3s like no tomorrow from the eye test. This is also supported by his stats of shooting poor 32% from the 3 pointer. Defenders are just contesting him and not jumping into him. They are also very well going vertical (like Hornets and Wizards) and not fouling him...

This is an absolute nothing burger and as said makes me question if you have watched these games at all when you call out others. The conclusion is either no or through extremely biased lense. Harden have had 3-4 questionable calls all season long where he didn't get benefit of the whistle. This is happening to literally to everyone. Westbrook have had almost 10 of such calls where he absolutely crashes on his butt after the play with heavy hacking of his arms and no calls. These harden no calls were very slight bumps at the best and nothing to be warrant massive outrage. He just needs to be more aggressive if he wants fouls to be called... Almost 50% of Harden's shots this year come from the 3 point shots and while he has had similar shot charts before his inside scoring has taken almost 10% usage drop. So he isn't driving as much as he has in the past.

[dhsilv2]

You guys realize in about 10 20 minutes you can see every field goal Harden's taken this year right?

No need to speculate, no need to say people don't watch the games. Just here is every shot in each game. Judge for yourself.


https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022100044&PlayerID=201935&RangeType=0&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612751&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100035&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100021&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100001&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0012100056&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Pre%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

Eh. Half of the plays were stepbacks with absolutely no contact and many plays with very little to no contact under the rim... Then many 50/50 plays which aren't called this year at all for anyone... I think it's you who haven't watched other players... Some guys been absolutely destroyed and getting no calls what so ever. Quit victimizing for a player who is now getting refereed like other players...

Did I offer an opinion?

I stated what I believe Nash was trying to communicate, his opinion. Not mine. I then posted the actual shots so others could review them.

If someone is making a statement like, "Harden isn't playing through contact"...well the first shot in the first video shows he absolute is. Was that a foul? I'll let you make that call. Was the shot unnatural movement? I certainly can't see that.

But do you see Harden in these plays "foul baiting"? Maybe he's pushing the issue on drives earlier than other players...but that's kinda how Harden plays. He uses early shots and tear drops as he's not that explosive at the rim. I'm open to a real discussion on if people see that as or not, but I don't see hooks. I don't see him stopping to have someone run into him. I don't see weird movement to jump into people. I don't see any of that. And yet...this thread is full of such accusations when it took me 2 minutes to find those and another maybe 10 to watch them all.

[RedSalsa]

Nooooo

It’s finally being called like it should be! Lmao

[KnicksGadfly]

You guys realize in about 10 20 minutes you can see every field goal Harden's taken this year right?

No need to speculate, no need to say people don't watch the games. Just here is every shot in each game. Judge for yourself.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022100044&PlayerID=201935&RangeType=0&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612751&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100035&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100021&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100001&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0012100056&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Pre%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

So since I know you aren't arguing with a good faith I took time to analyze every. single. FGA. in those links. No contact also includes not landing in his shooting space:

vs WIZARDS:
1. Harden barrels right into the chest of the defender. There is very light contact but defender is vertical and doesn't extend his arms sideways. This is classic no call because there is no call. These aren't called 9/10 times in the NBA.
2. Very similar play, if you want to call literally the smallest things be my guest.
3. Stepback brick. No contact what so ever.
4. Driving layup no contact at all. Made it
5. Driving layup. Bertans goes vertical and there is no contact.. misses
6. Another Driving layups. Zero contact.
7. Driving layup. No contact
8. Stepback brick. Zero contact.
9. Driving layup. Basically no contact. Just Harden'esque weird stop and swing ball around but never hits defender with his arms or body. Miss
10. Catch and shoot 3. BRICK no contact
11. another BRICK 3. No contact
12. Flat footed brick 3. NO CONTACT...?!?!?!? What is the point of moaning if all he does is this?
13. Stepback 3. Defender lands in his space and is correctly called
14. Another driving layup. Defender gives up because he doesn't want to get a foul called on him. Harden misses
15. 3 pointer. No contact. Brick
16. 3 pointed BRICK. no contact....
17. Not shown on the video so who knows..


Conclusion is Harden was very passive and just missing 3 point shots. Wizards also played very well and went vertical or didn't jump at all on his layups. There was maybe 1 missed call under last year's rules but considering rules this year there was no missed calls.


HORNETS:
1. Screen. 3 Pointer. Basically no real contest either. Just bricks it.
2. Tear drop. Zero contest. Misses
3. Guy just hangs on his side there is no real contact. Harden makes the shot.
4. Loong 3 point shot. made. Zero contact
5. Mildly contested 3 point shot. Harden instantly acts like he was touched which probably resulted the miss. There was 0 Contact. BRICK
6. Another Harden driving layup. Basically throw arms into defender's face. But there is no contact and Harden misses. Maybe he should try make the shot instead of fishing for fouls when defender isn't really even that close to him?
7. Stepback 3. Contested, makes it.
8. Same play. Different spot. BRICK
9. Driving layup. I see zero contact. Both defenders have arms up not trying to foul. Phantom call and this is very questionable and I would bet anyone but Harden wouldn't get this call at all. He makes it though.
10. Harden misses tear drop. There wasn't any contact.
11. Another stepback 3.... You see the pattern here? And of course it is a no contact BRICK!!!
12. These type of plays are always questionable but 9/10 times these doesn't get called. Harden makes teardrop and after shot is halfway through he lands into Plumlee who is waiting him in his vertical position. I think all after plays are pretty much no calls these days. Harden makes the shot so that's something...
13. Step back 3... We know already... BRICK (no contact obviously)
14. Bridges challenges vertical (perfect vertical challenge) Harden misses.
15. Putback from the previous play. He makes it, no contact
16. Another stepback 3... However this time something new! It doesn't even hit the rim! No contact obviously...

So Hornets played him well. Basically didn't foul him at all in the clips showed here. Absolutely no issues here Harden just bricking 3 pointers.... If you want fouls maybe don't shoot step back 3s?


Sixers.. This is getting old...
1. Stepback 3 pointer. Brick. Considering ref is literally next to them watching his feet Embiid doesn't land close enough for it to be considered Harden's space, Harden just flops down. Absolutely should never be called and isn't called here.
2. Driving layup. Makes it. No contact at all.
3. Catch and shoot 3 brick. no contact..
4. Floater no contact. Makes it
5. This is questionable bump but very light. This is 50/50 play in NBA but this year nobody is getting benefit of this call.
6. Another floater. Misses. No contact.
7. Stepback. Makes it. No contact
8. Floater. No contact. misses.
9. Stepback. makes it. no contact.
10. Floater. Just wide open miss.
11. Harden takes offensive rebound. Actually fouls defender by shoving him with his forearm to clear out the space for rebound and makes the shot. Gets away with the murder.
12. Typical Harden in traffic drive. Put ball into defender's face. There is no contact but Maxey perfectly backs down and in process basically almost blocks the shot. But Harden rolls it in regardless.
13. Embiid blocks harden. There is no contact.
14. Curry with aggressive defense but just in time pulls hand away from Harden foul baiting. No contact. Bricked 3.
15. Wide open 3. Makes it
16. Wild out of control drive. Harden misses it and tries to bait for fouls even though there was really nobody there to contest him, Drummond late to rotate.
17. corner 3. Wide open miss.


Already hating myself for putting up with this garbage... Makes me think you are the one who never watched his games... There was one play which was 50/50. Almost all of these ones were no defenders nearby him.

Bucks
1. Wide open 3. Brick
2. Another brick 3. Contested by Giannis and loser Harden tries to push him from back on Giannis dunk after Harden brick...
3. This is questionable call. Holiday is inside the restricted area. Goes vertical and mass of Harden just moves him away. Made the shot. This could've easily been a foul.
4. Floater. Made. No contact.
5. Dribble happy 3 pointed. Made it. No contact
6. Stepback 3 with a twist of a flop. Made it. Zero contact.
7. Another stepback 3. Made it. No contact
8. Stepback 3. Brick. No contact
9. Floater. Wide open. Miss.
10. Same play. No contact. Miss.
11. Rebounds the miss. Misses the wide open putback. No contact
12. 2nd offensive rebound. Thannes blocks him. 0 contact
13. Stepback flop. No contact. Made it.
14. 3 pointer. Miss. No contact.
15. Layup. Absolutely no contact apart of Harden trying to fish for it and flailing his arms.
16. Harden blocked. No contact. Miss


Twolves:
1. Layup. No contact. MIsses
2. This could've been foul last year. Not called this year. Nobody is getting this.
3. Makes layup. No contact to warrant a whistle.
4. stepback 3. made it. no contact
5. Wide open 3. Miss.
6. Refs didn't call offensive foul push on the drive. Misses the shot
7. stepback 3. Miss. No contact


So the conclusion is. He is just bricking stepback 3s like no tomorrow from the eye test. This is also supported by his stats of shooting poor 32% from the 3 pointer. Defenders are just contesting him and not jumping into him. They are also very well going vertical (like Hornets and Wizards) and not fouling him...

This is an absolute nothing burger and as said makes me question if you have watched these games at all when you call out others. The conclusion is either no or through extremely biased lense. Harden have had 3-4 questionable calls all season long where he didn't get benefit of the whistle. This is happening to literally to everyone. Westbrook have had almost 10 of such calls where he absolutely crashes on his butt after the play with heavy hacking of his arms and no calls. These harden no calls were very slight bumps at the best and nothing to be warrant massive outrage. He just needs to be more aggressive if he wants fouls to be called... Almost 50% of Harden's shots this year come from the 3 point shots and while he has had similar shot charts before his inside scoring has taken almost 10% usage drop. So he isn't driving as much as he has in the past.

Appreciate the effort man, but don’t let dealing with these homers kill your love for basketball and create cynicism. It’s only a few New Jersey Nets fan anyway.

[dhsilv2]

You guys realize in about 10 20 minutes you can see every field goal Harden's taken this year right?

No need to speculate, no need to say people don't watch the games. Just here is every shot in each game. Judge for yourself.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022100044&PlayerID=201935&RangeType=0&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612751&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100035&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100021&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100001&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0012100056&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Pre%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

So since I know you aren't arguing with a good faith I took time to analyze every. single. FGA. in those links. No contact also includes not landing in his shooting space:

DIdn't see this update.

I am not arguing with you on anything here man. I see minimal flopping, minimal effort to draw fouls...which is what your assessment indicates. Harden goes at defenders on drives and powers pushes through. Those were the biggest areas of concern with what POSTERS here were saying. I not once took any stance on if Harden was or was not getting fair calls. I took issue with people posting as if Harden's season looks like a flop highlight reel.

[TwoStarz]

Not only is he getting less FT's, defenders are able to crowd him now like they do every star player. No more foul baiting to get yourself space on offense, that was what Harden did a lot. Most of his layups would be uncontested cause of the foul fear, and he had a lot more space on his threes as well. Effectively this new rule change has the game called more like a playoff game and as a result, James has no space to work with. No more of that James, lets see if you can actually make some shots, something you've never been able to do in the playoffs.

[TwoStarz]

You guys realize in about 10 20 minutes you can see every field goal Harden's taken this year right?

No need to speculate, no need to say people don't watch the games. Just here is every shot in each game. Judge for yourself.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022100044&PlayerID=201935&RangeType=0&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612751&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100035&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100021&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022100001&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0012100056&PlayerID=201935&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Pre%20Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

So since I know you aren't arguing with a good faith I took time to analyze every. single. FGA. in those links. No contact also includes not landing in his shooting space:

DIdn't see this update.

I am not arguing with you on anything here man. I see minimal flopping, minimal effort to draw fouls...which is what your assessment indicates. Harden goes at defenders on drives and powers pushes through. Those were the biggest areas of concern with what POSTERS here were saying. I not once took any stance on if Harden was or was not getting fair calls. I took issue with people posting as if Harden's season looks like a flop highlight reel.

Maybe then Harden isn't such a good scorer if he doesn't have optimal space from his foul baiting? Its not only the amount of FT's he drew, but also that defenders were literally not allowed to breath on him. That extra space did wonders for his whole game. Lets see him make some shots "through and over defenders"

[dhsilv2]

So since I know you aren't arguing with a good faith I took time to analyze every. single. FGA. in those links. No contact also includes not landing in his shooting space:

DIdn't see this update.

I am not arguing with you on anything here man. I see minimal flopping, minimal effort to draw fouls...which is what your assessment indicates. Harden goes at defenders on drives and powers pushes through. Those were the biggest areas of concern with what POSTERS here were saying. I not once took any stance on if Harden was or was not getting fair calls. I took issue with people posting as if Harden's season looks like a flop highlight reel.

Maybe then Harden isn't such a good scorer if he doesn't have optimal space from his foul baiting? Its not only the amount of FT's he drew, but also that defenders were literally not allowed to breath on him. That extra space did wonders for his whole game. Lets see him make some shots "through and over defenders"

Lets wait till he's in game shape. He as injured in the playoffs last year and was likely rehabbing much of the summer. He isn't in game shape and his step back 3 looks a bit off. Combine that with his playing point guard for the nets, not primary scorer like he did for the rockets. And you know....lets never judge or make any statements on a player in less than 10 games. Horrible sample size.

[Lunartic]

Maybe then Harden isn't such a good scorer if he doesn't have optimal space from his foul baiting? Its not only the amount of FT's he drew, but also that defenders were literally not allowed to breath on him. That extra space did wonders for his whole game. Lets see him make some shots "through and over defenders"

This is a key point that gets lost in the whole Harden discussion.

Harden is praised constantly for having the greatest handles, the greatest first step, being so crafty etc but he's not being defended the way his contemporaries are allowed to be defended.

I'm a devout Curry detractor but he would absolutely be a top-8 player of all time if he was always allowed such excess room and respect from the refs. Same for Lebron, he could average 37 a game in prime if defenders weren't allowed to actually defend him and bump him on drives without a whistle blowing.

The analysis goes deeper than just FTA. It impacts how entire teams use their defensive personnel. A star defender picking up 3 fouls is far worse than the opponent getting 6 FTA. The fact that the refs allowed this charade to continue for almost a decade and even were complicit in it is disgusting.

Did the NBA really need an entire rule change to decide a dude jumping into defenders wasn't a foul?

[TwoStarz]

DIdn't see this update.

I am not arguing with you on anything here man. I see minimal flopping, minimal effort to draw fouls...which is what your assessment indicates. Harden goes at defenders on drives and powers pushes through. Those were the biggest areas of concern with what POSTERS here were saying. I not once took any stance on if Harden was or was not getting fair calls. I took issue with people posting as if Harden's season looks like a flop highlight reel.

Maybe then Harden isn't such a good scorer if he doesn't have optimal space from his foul baiting? Its not only the amount of FT's he drew, but also that defenders were literally not allowed to breath on him. That extra space did wonders for his whole game. Lets see him make some shots "through and over defenders"

Lets wait till he's in game shape. He as injured in the playoffs last year and was likely rehabbing much of the summer. He isn't in game shape and his step back 3 looks a bit off. Combine that with his playing point guard for the nets, not primary scorer like he did for the rockets. And you know....lets never judge or make any statements on a player in less than 10 games. Horrible sample size.

It is a small sample size indeed. I don't think Harden is suddenly a scrub but I'm saying just looking at raw FTA numbers doesn't tell us all about a players game. How does that player use the fear of Free throws to generate looks for the rest of his game? Harden was never an extreme shot maker, his FG is routinely in the low 40's and his three point percentage is barely above average. His schtick was a load of volume combined with lots of FT's to make his efficiency look elite.

As far as "getting buckets" goes, Harden has never shown a capability of that at the highest level like some of the other GOAT tier scorers.

It honestly makes me wonder how much of his shot making ability is predicated on the space he gets thanks to the officials. I'm curious to monitor that this season, as I watch him play.

[dhsilv2]

Maybe then Harden isn't such a good scorer if he doesn't have optimal space from his foul baiting? Its not only the amount of FT's he drew, but also that defenders were literally not allowed to breath on him. That extra space did wonders for his whole game. Lets see him make some shots "through and over defenders"

Lets wait till he's in game shape. He as injured in the playoffs last year and was likely rehabbing much of the summer. He isn't in game shape and his step back 3 looks a bit off. Combine that with his playing point guard for the nets, not primary scorer like he did for the rockets. And you know....lets never judge or make any statements on a player in less than 10 games. Horrible sample size.

It is a small sample size indeed. I don't think Harden is suddenly a scrub but I'm saying just looking at raw FTA numbers doesn't tell us all about a players game. How does that player use the fear of Free throws to generate looks for the rest of his game? Harden was never an extreme shot maker, his FG is routinely in the low 40's and his three point percentage is barely above average. His schtick was a load of volume combined with lots of FT's to make his efficiency look elite.

As far as "getting buckets" goes, Harden has never shown a capability of that at the highest level like some of the other GOAT tier scorers.

It honestly makes me wonder how much of his shot making ability is predicated on the space he gets thanks to the officials. I'm curious to monitor that this season, as I watch him play.

He'll certainly be a fun player to watch as the year goes on, but his role with this team is going to be far more as a point than he's really ever played before so we won't get an apples to apples comp either.

[TwoStarz]

Maybe then Harden isn't such a good scorer if he doesn't have optimal space from his foul baiting? Its not only the amount of FT's he drew, but also that defenders were literally not allowed to breath on him. That extra space did wonders for his whole game. Lets see him make some shots "through and over defenders"

This is a key point that gets lost in the whole Harden discussion.

Harden is praised constantly for having the greatest handles, the greatest first step, being so crafty etc but he's not being defended the way his contemporaries are allowed to be defended.

I'm a devout Curry detractor but he would absolutely be a top-8 player of all time if he was always allowed such excess room and respect from the refs. Same for Lebron, he could average 37 a game in prime if defenders weren't allowed to actually defend him and bump him on drives without a whistle blowing.

The analysis goes deeper than just FTA. It impacts how entire teams use their defensive personnel. A star defender picking up 3 fouls is far worse than the opponent getting 6 FTA. The fact that the refs allowed this charade to continue for almost a decade and even were complicit in it is disgusting.

Did the NBA really need an entire rule change to decide a dude jumping into defenders wasn't a foul?

I have no idea why Curry is even brought up in these discussions. Outside of 1-2 fouls on a three that he might flop on, his game is not based on foul bating at all. Curry can actually make shots and for the most part is always looking to make a shot, rather than foul bait. Heck, if curry used foul baiting just to get him that extra inch of space, the dude would be even more lethal than he is. Curry actually gets held and bumped off the ball like crazy, he just plays through it.

The poster boys of this rule change are Harden and Trae, two players that look for fouls over making a shot, not Curry, one of the greatest SHOT MAKERS in the world.

[Homer38]

Not only is he getting less FT's, defenders are able to crowd him now like they do every star player. No more foul baiting to get yourself space on offense, that was what Harden did a lot. Most of his layups would be uncontested cause of the foul fear, and he had a lot more space on his threes as well. Effectively this new rule change has the game called more like a playoff game and as a result, James has no space to work with. No more of that James, lets see if you can actually make some shots, something you've never been able to do in the playoffs.

I am 100% with you on this

[Marrrcuss]

You guys realize in about 10 20 minutes you can see every field goal Harden's taken this year right?

No need to speculate, no need to say people don't watch the games. Just here is every shot in each game. Judge for yourself.


So since I know you aren't arguing with a good faith I took time to analyze every. single. FGA. in those links. No contact also includes not landing in his shooting space:

DIdn't see this update.

I am not arguing with you on anything here man. I see minimal flopping, minimal effort to draw fouls...which is what your assessment indicates. Harden goes at defenders on drives and powers pushes through. Those were the biggest areas of concern with what POSTERS here were saying. I not once took any stance on if Harden was or was not getting fair calls. I took issue with people posting as if Harden's season looks like a flop highlight reel.

The claim of "hes a flopper" seems to be over done for the main guys they use it for.

Let me go ahead and tell you though that if he has a bad flop, it will be referenced for months on end as proof he "always" does it.

[ShootersShoot]

8 pages in and no vids or examples of harden being reffed unfairly this season. If those claims are being made I want to see evidence.

This board is heavy on Curry fans and also people that dislike Harden.

Many are happy, even if he was treated unfairly.

Have you ever wondered why people disliked him? Its for a good reason..

if harden was legitimately drawing fouls and not getting calls, I honestly believe people would be sympathetic. At the end of the day I'm sure all of us as bball fans just want the game to be called correctly. The reason why he isnt well-liked was because of his playstyle. It was basically destroying the integrity of the game. Now that he is being discouraged from said style, there might not be much of a reason to hate.

[CptCrunch]

The hatred for Harden is incredible. The Giannis/Curry stans are out in full force to defame the man, his game and livelihood. Pathetic really performing mental gymnastics to justify an narrative that only the deserving should shoot FT's and Harden foul baits and never gets fouled.

[Ben-N1ce]

4/12 14 points..rules turned to greatest offense player ever according to Morey to a below average scoring guard thus far..

[ImSlower]

I don't hate Harden or Nets fans. I have no horse in this race.

He is strong as hell and very smart - I think he will adapt his game. Absolute go riddance to his former entire mindset, which was to sweep his shooting motion or whole body into tight defense to get to the line.

[Marrrcuss]

Yall have a cotdamn 9 page discussion just to poke fun at a player???