The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

LBJKB24MJ23 · Post #541 » by **LBJKB24MJ23** » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:55 am

DatHomieYouHaTe wrote:A lot of people jumping on the bandwagon.. poll would be more embarrassing before we drafted him

it’s not a bandwagon anymore. People will genuinely cheer for him until the end of his career.

pingpongrac · Post #542 » by **pingpongrac** » Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:00 am

GordanFreeman wrote:Everyone who was crying and wailing in this thread line up for your serving of dung...single file please. Some of y'all keep coming back for more, amazing.
For the record, I was initially upset with the pick. But I quickly got over it cause in 'Masai we trust!'

Yep. I bought into the hype of scouts and TWO that Suggs was always going to be the pick/Lowry's replacement. It took less than a day to get over the pick and now I can clearly see the vision of the FO. Our team already looks scary defensively even while we're missing arguably our 2nd or 3rd most important defender and most of our rotation players are super young.

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Vampirate · Post #543 » by **Vampirate** » Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:07 am

I've said this before.

I want Suggs to succeed, I want him to be an All Star, maybe Superstar.

I just want Barnes to be the better player.

The Raptors drafted Barnes for the long game, not expecting anything big in the first year, it looks like the Magic are going to have to play that game.

Let's see where Suggs is in year 2.

RoyceDa59 · Post #544 » by **RoyceDa59** » Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:15 am

This debate is already over.

mickie · Post #545 » by **mickie** » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:25 pm

RoyceDa59 wrote:This debate is already over.

and if you still disagree then you're not watching the games. :lol:

Scottie B. for the win!

DonMega · Post #546 » by **DonMega** » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:56 pm

Seeing the front page poll is embarrassing. I was a doubter but the second he flew down to downtown toronto himself and hung out with fans near the ACC I quickly understood why we drafted him. Him ballin out now is a bonus.

metafisical · Post #547 » by **metafisical** » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:17 pm

Who cares who was right or wrong? The fact is that Barnes is already an improved version of a prime Lebron/Curry/Durant amalgam. He will probably average quadruple doubles (or triples) for the rest of his career, so I no longer care about who we didnt draft or what could have been.

The fact is, our minimum expectation of Barnes should be that he is a once in a lifetime NBA superstar. The media, fans, coaches and players should pressure him to become that type of player. That's the Toronto way of doing things.

Rebel INS · Post #548 » by **Rebel INS** » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:31 pm

Amongst other things, we should eventually look back on the Suggs consensus as a case study in why mediocre and bad front offices can accumulate multiple top 5 picks over years of losing and have nothing to show for it

For example, you see it all the time as justification for the process sixers miss rate- "Okafor was the consensus BPA" "Everyone would've taken Fultz first overall" "No one would've picked Ingram over Simmons". As if these busts were inevitable and no amount of scouting and/or player development could've led to any other outcome

If raps picked Suggs and he busted, while Scottie blew up for Orlando ironically Masai probably wouldn't have gotten any heat for it. "he was the obvious pick, it was a clear cut top 4 consensus that year". Its probably why GM's who worry about keeping their jobs rarely surprise anyone by passing up media hyped consensus bluechip prospects

Seems like the draft becomes less of a crap shoot when you trust your own scouts and player development guys more than the 'consensus'

Raps in 4 · Post #549 » by **Raps in 4** » Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:44 pm

DonMega wrote:Seeing the front page poll is embarrassing. I was a doubter but the second he flew down to downtown toronto himself and hung out with fans near the ACC I quickly understood why we drafted him. Him ballin out now is a bonus.

We definitely didn't draft him for his ability to hang out with fans. THAT part is the bonus.

bluerap23 · Post #550 » by **bluerap23** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:53 pm

No too soon any more.

I recall more than half this board freaking out at the time of selection.

I hope this fanbase can finally Trust Masai.

Ducksplatt · Post #551 » by **Ducksplatt** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:08 pm

Admitted I wanted Suggs but am very happy with Barnes.

But honestly, if Raps had picked Suggs, many on the board would have been saying that PG’s take time to develop and he is stuck behind Fred/Trent for playing time, etc.

Suggs will be fine. He just needs more time. But super happy we have Scottie as I feel he was the right pick for the Raps.

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vini_vidi_vici · Post #552 » by **vini_vidi_vici** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:16 pm

I hate these ______ vs ______ threads.

Suggs has been awful in almost everything aside from PnR ball handler D.

pingpongrac · Post #553 » by **pingpongrac** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:20 pm

I like how when Scottie was slumping a bit (after coming back from the injury) he still put up solid numbers despite looking a bit out of sorts on both ends. As of the 2nd half against the Warriors, it looks like he is breaking through his first rookie wall -- and he's actually taking some threes too. Hopefully he keeps it up because he is at his best when he is aggressive with his offence and we are a much harder team to play against when we have that extra boost.

Suggs has looked extremely underwhelming in the 5 or 6 Magic games I've seen in preseason/regular season with the exception of the game against us (where he put up 21/2/4 on 14 shots). For someone that was supposed to be a floor raiser and was drawing comparisons to some really good players, I don't really see it. He has yet to have a single game where he shoots above 45% and his 64:60 AST/TO ratio is just brutal. His defence has been the high point, but it still hasn't been great and I don't think he projects to be anything close to a Lowry/Holiday level player. On a semi-related note, I've been really impressed with Anthony. He has been Orlando's best player by far (+19.2 on/off and averaging 20/7/6 on 55 TS%) and I didn't expect much from him after a rather mediocre rookie season.

Raps in 4 · Post #554 » by **Raps in 4** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:40 pm

pingpongrac wrote:I like how when Scottie was slumping a bit (after coming back from the injury) he still put up solid numbers despite looking a bit out of sorts on both ends. As of the 2nd half against the Warriors, it looks like he is breaking through his first rookie wall -- and he's actually taking some threes too. Hopefully he keeps it up because he is at his best when he is aggressive with his offence and we are a much harder team to play against when we have that extra boost.

Suggs has looked extremely underwhelming in the 5 or 6 Magic games I've seen in preseason/regular season with the exception of the game against us (where he put up 21/2/4 on 14 shots). For someone that was supposed to be a floor raiser and was drawing comparisons to some really good players, I don't really see it. He has yet to have a single game where he shoots above 45% and his 64:60 AST/TO ratio is just brutal. His defence has been the high point, but it still hasn't been great and I don't think he projects to be anything close to a Lowry/Holiday level player. On a semi-related note, I've been really impressed with Anthony. He has been Orlando's best player by far (+19.2 on/off and averaging 20/7/6 on 55 TS%) and I didn't expect much from him after a rather mediocre rookie season.

Slumping Barnes was still miles better than average Suggs.

vulture · Post #555 » by **vulture** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:49 pm

bluerap23 wrote:No too soon any more.

I recall more than half this board freaking out at the time of selection.

I hope this fanbase can finally Trust Masai.

come on man, this is realgm where everyone is in shambles about everything.

pingpongrac · Post #556 » by **pingpongrac** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:04 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:
pingpongrac wrote:I like how when Scottie was slumping a bit (after coming back from the injury) he still put up solid numbers despite looking a bit out of sorts on both ends. As of the 2nd half against the Warriors, it looks like he is breaking through his first rookie wall -- and he's actually taking some threes too. Hopefully he keeps it up because he is at his best when he is aggressive with his offence and we are a much harder team to play against when we have that extra boost.

Suggs has looked extremely underwhelming in the 5 or 6 Magic games I've seen in preseason/regular season with the exception of the game against us (where he put up 21/2/4 on 14 shots). For someone that was supposed to be a floor raiser and was drawing comparisons to some really good players, I don't really see it. He has yet to have a single game where he shoots above 45% and his 64:60 AST/TO ratio is just brutal. His defence has been the high point, but it still hasn't been great and I don't think he projects to be anything close to a Lowry/Holiday level player. On a semi-related note, I've been really impressed with Anthony. He has been Orlando's best player by far (+19.2 on/off and averaging 20/7/6 on 55 TS%) and I didn't expect much from him after a rather mediocre rookie season.

Slumping Barnes was still miles better than average Suggs.

Exactly. Among rookies getting rotation minutes, Barnes is near the top in most box score stats (#1 in PPG, #1 in REB, #5 in AST, T-5 in STL, #6 in BLK) whereas Suggs is middle of the pack in almost every statistic (#7 in PPG, #9 in REB, #4 in AST, #8 in STL, #11 in BLK). Similarly, Barnes has very good advanced stats (+0.1 NetRTG, middle of the pack with a 10.9 TOV% and middle of the pack with a 53 TS%) while Suggs has been very bad (-6.3 NetRTG, dead last with a 16.1 TOV% and tied for last with a 43 TS%). Suggs' raw numbers have been massively inflated due to his league-leading 25.7 USG% among rookies (Scottie is at 19.1).

When Barnes is at his best, he already looks unstoppable whereas Suggs has been mostly awful. Obviously both players still have a ton of time to improve, but I just think Scottie's skillset/IQ and size makes his ceiling significantly higher than that of Suggs. It's encouraging that he shows flashes of greatness in virtually every game, even when he is struggling.

Vampirate · Post #557 » by **Vampirate** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:12 pm

Suggs looks like he can be a solid starter in the future but this debate is dead.

So much in fact that Magic fans have pivoted from arguing Suggs over Barnes to Franz Wagner over Barnes.

/thread.

OakleyDokely · Post #558 » by **OakleyDokely** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:50 pm

Vampirate wrote:Suggs looks like he can be a solid starter in the future but this debate is dead.

So much in fact that Magic fans have pivoted from arguing Suggs over Barnes to Franz Wagner over Barnes.

/thread.

Barnes > Wagner

Banton > Suggs

Los_29 · Post #559 » by **Los_29** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:02 pm

Vampirate wrote:Suggs looks like he can be a solid starter in the future but this debate is dead.

So much in fact that Magic fans have pivoted from arguing Suggs over Barnes to Franz Wagner over Barnes.

/thread.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Suggs has absolutely not looked like he can be a solid starter in this league. He's been absolutely atrocious. However, he's obviously still young and far from a finished product. Lots of time to figure it out. But I'm not kidding, if he was on 25 other teams in this league he would be nailed to the bench.

Vampirate · Post #560 » by **Vampirate** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:50 pm

Los_29 wrote:
Vampirate wrote:Suggs looks like he can be a solid starter in the future but this debate is dead.

So much in fact that Magic fans have pivoted from arguing Suggs over Barnes to Franz Wagner over Barnes.

/thread.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Suggs has absolutely not looked like he can be a solid starter in this league. He's been absolutely atrocious. However, he's obviously still young and far from a finished product. Lots of time to figure it out. But I'm not kidding, if he was on 25 other teams in this league he would be nailed to the bench.

I'm accounting for Suggs defense which is good atm and the fact that his shooting will probably be respectable at some point.

Who ya got?