2021-22 Rookie Thread

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Who will be the three best rookies?

Cade Cunningham
130
14%
Jalen Green
148
16%
Evan Mobley
187
21%
Scottie Barnes
225
25%
Jalen Suggs
51
6%
Josh Giddey
82
9%
Jonathan Kuminga
6
1%
Trey Murphy
11
1%
James Bouknight
15
2%
Other
44
5%
 
Total votes: 899

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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#781 » by stanch sabonis » Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:30 am

Shy Gorgeous-Al wrote:
stanch sabonis wrote:
anotherhomer wrote:don't understand why that pelican fans was defensive

Everyone, not only Rap fans, are praising scottie.
However, Rap Fans are also acknowledging that Mobley was the first choice.
Heck, did you know Rap Fans were already debating to trade Barnes for Mobley in the theoretical that Cavs need a 3 more than a 5.

Cavs wouldn't do it though lol....

I still don't understand what makes Mobley a better prospect. Superstar wings are more valuable than bigs especially playmaking wings. Someone break it down to me. If we're talking about their high end potential, I don't understand how Mobley is the choice. I really don't.

I wouldn't trade Scottie for Mobley. It wouldn't even be a question to me.


He is a better prospect. His impact on the floor is greater and will remain so if he stays healthy. He is not your typical center... so you don't compare him to the impact of your typical center. Mobley in a few years may be called a wing, and with his physical gifts he is nothing like we have ever seen. Barnes can't and will never be able to do what Mobley can do defensively...and Mobley is a puppy, a baby giraffe..he isn't even close to his physical prime obviously. Barnes body is super NBA ready.

I wouldn't take Davis over Kawhi for example. Let's talk about just positional value instead of your obviously impressive ability to tell the future. Neither is close to their physical prime. What a ridiculous assertion just because one player is bigger lol
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#782 » by Shy Gorgeous-Al » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:03 pm

stanch sabonis wrote:
Shy Gorgeous-Al wrote:
stanch sabonis wrote:I still don't understand what makes Mobley a better prospect. Superstar wings are more valuable than bigs especially playmaking wings. Someone break it down to me. If we're talking about their high end potential, I don't understand how Mobley is the choice. I really don't.

I wouldn't trade Scottie for Mobley. It wouldn't even be a question to me.


He is a better prospect. His impact on the floor is greater and will remain so if he stays healthy. He is not your typical center... so you don't compare him to the impact of your typical center. Mobley in a few years may be called a wing, and with his physical gifts he is nothing like we have ever seen. Barnes can't and will never be able to do what Mobley can do defensively...and Mobley is a puppy, a baby giraffe..he isn't even close to his physical prime obviously. Barnes body is super NBA ready.

I wouldn't take Davis over Kawhi for example. Let's talk about just positional value instead of your obviously impressive ability to tell the future. Neither is close to their physical prime. What a ridiculous assertion just because one player is bigger lol


Neither Mobley nor Barnes are AD or Kawhi, yeah?

What is positional value lol? value is impact, if one player has bigger impact he is the better player. There is no such thing as positional value, value change according to the respective teams roster makeup and league trends. Do you not recall bigs being at the top of the echelon? What about the time when Curry was the thing? PGs value increased as well.

Sure, when you get a caliber of talent like Lebron James who ticks all the boxes for you on both ends then okay..sure, wings may hold more value because they are able to do more things than your typical PFs/C. They can dish, rebound, score on very high %, block shots, etc..basically do most of what your PF/C and more. But that's really rare.

But you are working under the assumption that Barnes is that special talent? based on what exactly?

Dunno what to tell you, but when I look at the NBA landscape and which players are the most impactful I see more similarity to Mobley than Barnes. There are a lot of PFs/C and some unicorns like Durant and Giannis who resemble Mobley more once he matures and develops physically.

Mobley's path into being a 1A on a good playoffs team and an anchor defensively is much clearer than that of Barnes to me. And at the end of the day, these are all projections, yeah? nonetheless, if I had to build a team from scratch, i'm picking Mobley every damn time as he is much easier to build a team around as he gives you the blueprint.

And comeon, I did not say that Barnes is in his physical prime... I said he is NBA ready and that's true. how much more mass do you think he will be able to add? where's Mobley's starting point is so damn lower that it makes you wonder how good he is going to be once he fills up because right now his lack of strength and weight is clearly a detriment to his overall game. And this kid is not soft. He fights...so yeah, good luck to all if an once he fills up and gains some strength.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#783 » by NRSV » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:13 pm

Mobley is already an all-defense level defender and he’s shown traits that his offensive ceiling is also quite high: elite rim running potential, willing shooter with good form out to 3PT land, huge hands and dexterity with both hands, better ball handling than most C’s already.

His ceiling is KG/more physical AD. Barnes can’t compete with that projection imo.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#784 » by God Squad » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:15 pm

Who cares yall. Just enjoy the show. This class looks very strong . I'm sure Raptors/Cavs/Magic are very happy with their selections.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#785 » by NRSV » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:16 pm

I have higher hopes about Suggs than I do Cade Cunningham. I think Suggs is better on both ends and translates better to the NBA!
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#786 » by Shy Gorgeous-Al » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:19 pm

God Squad wrote:Who cares yall. Just enjoy the show. This class looks very strong . I'm just Raptors/Cavs/Magic are very happy with their selections.


Raptors fans should be happy. Masai once again proves to be more than a worthwhile
GM. One that goes against the grain and is right more often than not. It must be great.

Both Barnes and Mobley had an outstanding night, so it's natural to compare the two after a night like this. I suppose we will be comparing them as players for the foreseeable future whether you like it or not :lol:

Special players, but Mobley is specialier. I hope you know what I did there.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#787 » by God Squad » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:21 pm

Creativetran wrote:
God Squad wrote:
Suggs - He's breaking my heart right now tbh. I keep saying next game he'll breakout, but he's having a rough time with his shot/handle for a pg. The defense looks legit as heck though. With his current inconsistencies maybe George Hill/Marcus Smart type? If he gets it under control I can see Jrue Holiday type in there.

As a Magic fan I'm not worried about Suggs, his shoot isn't falling right now like it did in summer league but he's shown enough in other areas that I'm not worried. He's playing off the ball too much right now, while Cole Anthony has put up better numbers I still think he should be a spark plug off the bench type guy. Suggs needs to be on the ball more so he doesn't over think everything as much as he's doing now, plus he's rushing everything.

If he's still shooting like this towards the end of the year then yeah, I would be worried.

Great game by Suggs . I knew he was due for a breakout game any day now. Hopefully he keeps it rolling.

If you can critique the bad, you gotta give credit for when he's playing good.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#788 » by God Squad » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:24 pm

Shy Gorgeous-Al wrote:
God Squad wrote:Who cares yall. Just enjoy the show. This class looks very strong . I'm just Raptors/Cavs/Magic are very happy with their selections.


Raptors fans should be happy. Masai once again proves to be more than a worthwhile
GM. One that goes against the grain and is right more often than not. It must be great.

Both Barnes and Mobley had an outstanding night, so it's natural to compare the two after a night like this. I suppose we will be comparing them as players for the foreseeable future whether you like it or not :lol:

Special players, but Mobley is specialier. I hope you know what I did there.

Oh I understand they'll be compared. I just don't think it's that serious and see people getting worked up lol.

Just enjoy the games and see the development. But them two look special man.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#789 » by NRSV » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:27 pm

They’ll both look good as Lakers one day

/vomit
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#790 » by Shy Gorgeous-Al » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:33 pm

God Squad wrote:
Shy Gorgeous-Al wrote:
God Squad wrote:Who cares yall. Just enjoy the show. This class looks very strong . I'm just Raptors/Cavs/Magic are very happy with their selections.


Raptors fans should be happy. Masai once again proves to be more than a worthwhile
GM. One that goes against the grain and is right more often than not. It must be great.

Both Barnes and Mobley had an outstanding night, so it's natural to compare the two after a night like this. I suppose we will be comparing them as players for the foreseeable future whether you like it or not :lol:

Special players, but Mobley is specialier. I hope you know what I did there.

Oh I understand they'll be compared. I just don't think it's that serious and see people getting worked up lol.

Just enjoy the games and see the development. But them two look special man.


Nothing better to do on a saturday.

Everybody has their favorite. I dunno I just enjoy watching rookies blossom.. it's so much fun. I enjoyed watching Mobley last night like heck. Too bad he had too many obstacles to deal with.

What's crazy to me is that he is the Cavs best player. They fall of a cliff when he is off the floor. You can actually see Bickerstaff just eagerly waiting to bring him back in.. he is that important which is crazy for a rookie C, especially one who is so physically outmatched.

I do wonder about Jalen Green. The dude doesn't play winning basketball even if he becomes a really good scorer. The things he doesn't do on the floor are really glaring to me.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#791 » by NRSV » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:37 pm

Yeah I was wondering who else noticed that. The Cavaliers defense tanked the second he walked off the floor.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#792 » by Shy Gorgeous-Al » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:55 pm

NRSV wrote:Yeah I was wondering who else noticed that. The Cavaliers defense tanked the second he walked off the floor.


Yes, then he came back a min or two later and it was too late lol.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#793 » by QingJames » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:57 pm

Shy Gorgeous-Al wrote:Dunno what to tell you, but when I look at the NBA landscape and which players are the most impactful I see more similarity to Mobley than Barnes. There are a lot of PFs/C and some unicorns like Durant and Giannis who resemble Mobley more once he matures and develops physically.


I don’t actually disagree that Mobley is and may continue to be more impactful than Barnes throughout their careers. But I do take issue with this statement. There is certainly a greater preponderance of impactful forwards than there are bigs/centers. There’s Embiid, AD and Jokic and then a pretty big drop off. I think most teams would much rather have guys like Brown, Tatum, Kawhi, PG13, Butler, Doncic, Middleton, Randle, etc. than guys like Ayton, Capela, Turner, JV, etc.

There’s no question forwards have been more impactful than bigs on average in the contemporary NBA.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#794 » by Mr Loggins » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:07 pm

I wonder if this is starting to put pressure on Cade, seeing Mobley and Barnes play at such a high level right away. I mean if he has a “meh” game to start his career….
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#795 » by Shy Gorgeous-Al » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:08 pm

QingJames wrote:
Shy Gorgeous-Al wrote:Dunno what to tell you, but when I look at the NBA landscape and which players are the most impactful I see more similarity to Mobley than Barnes. There are a lot of PFs/C and some unicorns like Durant and Giannis who resemble Mobley more once he matures and develops physically.


I don’t actually disagree that Mobley is and may continue to be more impactful than Barnes throughout their careers. But I do take issue with this statement. There is certainly a greater preponderance of impactful forwards than there are bigs/centers. There’s Embiid, AD and Jokic and then a pretty big drop off. I think most teams would much rather have guys like Brown, Tatum, Kawhi, PG13, Butler, Doncic, Middleton, Randle, etc. than guys like Ayton, Capela, Turner, JV, etc.

There’s no question forwards have been more impactful than bigs on average in the contemporary NBA.


Right. I did not intend to say that there are a lot more players like that. That was a false statement and poor wording on my part.

What I meant to say is that the most impactful players that are labeled as PFs/C (the non traditional bigs) are more in the mold of Mobley. Mobley is more of a unicorn to me than Barnes. You see Barnes archetype more in the NBA.

Doncic is on a tier on his own and most resembles Lebron. I do not count him as the same player as the other wings you listed. He is a PG in a wing body.

Other than Kawhi, what have those said player done in their careers? They have not won. Every team is looking for a wing, especially two way wings because there are so many good wing talents in the NBA and you need to match up against them, but they are not rare other than the top of the top. Do you think Barnes can reach Doncic and Lebron level?

I'll take the stance that Mobley has a greater chance to reach his projection and ceiling, and his floor as a defensive game changer seems pretty safe to me.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#796 » by yoyoboy » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:18 pm

Mobley’s understanding of positioning has to be one of the most impressive things I’ve ever seen from a rookie. What makes him so exciting as a prospect is that he’s already having such an impact despite still being so raw and not having an NBA body yet.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#797 » by yoyoboy » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:33 pm

Mobley contests 17.3 shots per game, best in the league 15% higher than the #2 place guy. Yet he’s averaging just 2.3 fouls per game. 2.3 assists to just 1.3 turnovers despite playing with 3 heavily ball dominant guards. Turnovers, fouls, and knowing where to be and when to be there are usually some of the biggest problems for rookie bigs yet 5 games in, they’re not issues for Evan in the slightest. I think that really speaks to his basketball IQ. His FT% at 80% is also something that’s unique for bigs, and he manages to get to the line at a decent rate despite not being very strong yet.

I think that’s why it’s a mistake to say, well good bigs typically have less impact than good wings in the playoffs, so Mobley has less potential than this guy or that guy. Mobley’s abilities are really rare and not like most bigs.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#798 » by The Moose » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:43 pm

Mr Loggins wrote:I wonder if this is starting to put pressure on Cade, seeing Mobley and Barnes play at such a high level right away. I mean if he has a “meh” game to start his career….


would be pretty harsh to judge Cade off of 1 game after being out for a month
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#799 » by everdiso » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:43 pm

NRSV wrote:Re: Mobley vs Barnes.

The sample sizes are small. The numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. The eye test is still more important at this juncture. Though both players are producing early.

Barnes is being asked to ball handle more than Mobley. Mobley is being asked to defensively anchor. Barnes is creating most of his shots (only assisted on 28% of his field goals). Mobley is a roll man (assisted on like 66% of his shots) and mostly roll man'd his way to 23 points tonight.

I personally think being asked to anchor a defense to be more impressive than a comparable age player being asked to create shots but we aren't talking about what is impressive, we are talking value.

Some analytics say they're comparable. Some say Mobley is better. Again, it's early. It should be noted that Barnes is on the team that was projected to be 8-10 games better than the Cavs coming into the season. Not sure if these projections included Siakam missing time though.

Based only on demonstrated traits, I think Mobley is gonna be pretty insane when he reaches his final form. Nice shooting form with range. Toughness. High positional IQ. Great shot altering instincts. But that's not what ROTY is about. It's about what you are right now as a player. That tends to favor scoring and Barnes's green light will stay green all season.


What does "defensively anchor" mean to you?

Because Scottie is being asked to man up against the Doncics and Tatums so far. To guard centers and PGs too.
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Re: 2021-22 Rookie Thread 

Post#800 » by The Duke » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:49 pm

Both Mobley and Barnes look damn good.
But what matters more to me, is who based on today NBA game have more transferable skills in playoff games.

Mobley gives elite defence inside, but what happens if in playoffs when ball is swing and it’s more 3 point shots, is his defence less utilized? How is Mobley’s back to the net offense and can he do that at high clip (while maybe not asked to do that now).

Barnes has shown good perimeter defence (where the ball is more during playoff) ability to handle the ball in open court (raw usage (shot/pass) can go up in playoff), and the mid range jumper (which is the key to playoff success).

Raw point scored in regular season doesn’t matter as much, because in the playoffs it matters more if you can create your own offense (your own shot, easily, with the ball starting in your own hands) and make the bucket at a strong clip.

Right now i like Barnes transferable skills more for playoffs, as it could potentially positively affect playoff games more (3 years down the line)

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