NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 5

[nate33]

Suggs has been shockingly bad on offense, but the defense has been as advertised, flat out elite on that end. We’ll see if the offense comes around.

Right now, I’m pretty comfortable calling Jalen Green the next Anthony Edwards. Awful awful awful pick by Houston with Mobley on the board.

Green is very young and inexperienced. I think he'll come around. He'll never be as good as Mobley (who has the potential of being a top 50 All-Time HOFer), but it wouldn't surprise me if he has a career of a top 3 caliber pick.

Indeed, I'm fairly optimistic about Anthony Edwards too.

[tontoz]

Another thing to keep an eye on: Trey Murphy has played quite a bit so far and been the same player he was in college: wildly unproductive other than making 3s. Listed Kispert’s numbers below Murphy’s. The only thing Kispert hasn’t done yet is make 3s, which we all know will come. Other than that, he’s been better than Murphy in every way by a mile.

9.8 points 3.6 rebounds 1.2 assists 0.5 steals 0.2 blocks 28% on 2pt

5.4 points 6.3 rebounds 3.6 assists 1.8 steals 1.8 blocks 66% on 2pt

Kispert will start knocking down 3s, and this won’t even be close. It’s still super early, obviously, but I’m confident we made the right pick.

Jalen Suggs has been surprisingly disappointing so far. He is shooting just 30% from the field and is committing 4.0 turnovers per 36 (relative to 4.9 assists). I really liked him over Barnes.

Barnes is averaging 18/9 shooting 55%.

I checked out the Raps board on draft night and some were griping about the pick. Others were saying dont doubt Masai.

Raps actually have a winning record now and Siakam hasn't played yet.

[NatP4]

Suggs has been shockingly bad on offense, but the defense has been as advertised, flat out elite on that end. We’ll see if the offense comes around.

Right now, I’m pretty comfortable calling Jalen Green the next Anthony Edwards. Awful awful awful pick by Houston with Mobley on the board.

Green is very young and inexperienced. I think he'll come around. He'll never be as good as Mobley (who has the potential of being a top 50 All-Time HOFer), but it wouldn't surprise me if he has a career of a top 3 caliber pick.

Indeed, I'm fairly optimistic about Anthony Edwards too.

I simply don’t think that type of player has the upside to be all that impactful in today’s NBA. Green and Edwards don’t really have wing-defending ability, and they aren’t ever going to be primary initiators. At best, they are secondary ball handlers and guys that can only guard 1s&2s.

What makes them horrible at basketball is the fact that they are bad at the only thing they supposedly do well, which is scoring. Edwards puts up 22 points per game in his career on 52% TS% and does literally nothing else well.

It’s why I say a guy like Wagner will help his team win more than Green ever will. Wagner will be a 60% TS guy and be able to impact the game defensively and guard all 5 positions. He gives you just as much playmaking as Edwards and Green with way less turnovers.

It’s a ball handler/primary initiator, Wing, Big league now. Shot creating 2s that can’t defend are just about useless.

[NatP4]

Somebody like Beal brings tons of value because he has the strength and length to guard wings and he has become a high efficiency scorer that can at times, be a primary initiator. Green has too much tunnel vision to ever be a true 1. IMO

[doclinkin]

2010 - Greives Vasquez - 28th - Rotation player
2002 - Juan Dixon - 17th - Journeyman

Huerter is literally the only guy that has arguably outplayed his draft position.

You can make a case that Vasquez wasn't an awful pick at #28. He at least stuck around for a 2nd contract at 2 years $6M per.

I'd say Juan and Greivis outplayed their position if you look at players ahead of them who didn't stick in the league for 7+ years. In fact if you compare by this chart of average number of games played by draft position, both would qualify as better than average.

Steve Blake however would be the clubhouse leader in value for pick of Maryland players. Of an expected 161 games (for the #38 pick) he played 870 -- infuriating former realgm poster Induveca who hated that the Wiz would commonly pick Maryland/G-Town guys.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Read on Twitter

I was really wrong about him coming out of college. He has been exactly what Dat2U, Ruzious, and others said he would be, which is not a great pro.

“Love without limits, dream without fear and live in the moment.“

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Read on Twitter

Wow.

Just don't draft guys out of Maryland in the first round. Here is how they have fared over the last 25 years:

2020 - Jalen Smith - 10th - Bust
2018 - Kevin Huerter - 19th - Solid player
2013 - Alex Len -5th - Journeyman
2010 - Greives Vasquez - 28th - Rotation player
2002 - Juan Dixon - 17th - Journeyman
2002 - Chris Wilcox - 8th - Bust
1999 - Steve Francis - 2nd - Empty stats "star"
1997 - Keith Booth - 28th - Bust
1995 - Joe Smith - 1st - Solid player

Huerter is literally the only guy that has arguably outplayed his draft position.

You can make a case that Vasquez wasn't an awful pick at #28. He at least stuck around for a 2nd contract at 2 years $6M per.

Steve Francis did make a few All-Star games, but he was the type of all-flash no-substance star who couldn't win games. I suppose one can argue that he lived up to his #2 draft position though. (FWIW, Baron Davis and Lamar Odom went #3 and #4 in that draft.)

Smith, Len, Dixon, Wilcox, Booth and Smith were unquestionably big disappointments relative to where they were drafted.

Three -time all star, Steve Francis. Not an empty stats player. Druggie who had a good, brief run.

Chris Wilcox played 11 NBA seasons with 5 teams. Career PER 15. Once had 24 rebounds in a game. Started 261 games. Not a bust.

Vasquez played 7 seasons for 6 teams. Started 157 games over 4 different seasons. PER 13.7 for his career..

Dixon had 31 in a playoff game as a Wizard. Played 7 pro seasons. 77 starts. Best season averaged 12/2/2 with Portland.

Last 3 were serviceable players.

I guess Keith Booth should have fared well practicing against MJ, Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman and others on the Bulls.

You have hung that bust label on Jalen pretty early. DENI has been no better.

“Love without limits, dream without fear and live in the moment.“

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

It's funny but the guy nate called a solid player Joe Smith actually was drafted ahead of Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett.

Joe Smith played a long time but to me he was a bit of a bust considering he was equivalent with Tim Duncan in college.

“Love without limits, dream without fear and live in the moment.“

[nate33]

It's funny but the guy nate called a solid player Joe Smith actually was drafted ahead of Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett.

Joe Smith played a long time but to me he was a bit of a bust considering he was equivalent with Tim Duncan in college.

“Love without limits, dream without fear and live in the moment.“

Apparently, I didn't make my point clear. Joe Smith was absolutely a bad draft pick for the reasons you say. He was, however, a solid player. The guy had 619 career starts and played 27,000 minutes. But it's damn disappointing to acquire a mere "solid player" with the #1 pick in the draft.

[nate33]

Chris Wilcox played 11 NBA seasons with 5 teams. Career PER 15. Once had 24 rebounds in a game. Started 261 games. Not a bust.

Wilcox never became a regular starter during his entire rookie contract. He managed to sign one half-decent $3-year $19M contract as a free agent, so I guess "bust" is overstating it. But he only had 2 seasons as a regular starter, and that was for Seattle, one of the worst teams in the league. After that, he was a journeyman. That's not the resume you want out of the #8 pick in the draft.

Dixon had 31 in a playoff game as a Wizard. Played 7 pro seasons. 77 starts. Best season averaged 12/2/2 with Portland.

77 starts in 7 years isn't a lot. It's a career backup who started a few times due to injury. Being a career backup as the #17 pick in the draft is disappointing.

You have hung that bust label on Jalen pretty early. DENI has been no better.

It's not me that hung that label. It's Phoenix. Not opting in on the 4th year of a rookie contract is pretty much the definition of a bust.

[nate33]

2010 - Greives Vasquez - 28th - Rotation player
2002 - Juan Dixon - 17th - Journeyman

Huerter is literally the only guy that has arguably outplayed his draft position.

You can make a case that Vasquez wasn't an awful pick at #28. He at least stuck around for a 2nd contract at 2 years $6M per.

I'd say Juan and Greivis outplayed their position if you look at players ahead of them who didn't stick in the league for 7+ years. In fact if you compare by this chart of average number of games played by draft position, both would qualify as better than average.

Steve Blake however would be the clubhouse leader in value for pick of Maryland players. Of an expected 161 games (for the #38 pick) he played 870 -- infuriating former realgm poster Induveca who hated that the Wiz would commonly pick Maryland/G-Town guys.

Dixon might have met the average games played threshold, but not the minutes per game.

[Ruzious]

Read on Twitter

I was really wrong about him coming out of college. He has been exactly what Dat2U, Ruzious, and others said he would be, which is not a great pro.

“Love without limits, dream without fear and live in the moment.“

I still think he can be a useful NBA player if he convinces a team he's a smallball center, rather than a PF. He was at his best at MD when he replaced Bruno - rather than played with him.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Chris Wilcox played 11 NBA seasons with 5 teams. Career PER 15. Once had 24 rebounds in a game. Started 261 games. Not a bust.

Wilcox never became a regular starter during his entire rookie contract. He managed to sign one half-decent $3-year $19M contract as a free agent, so I guess "bust" is overstating it. But he only had 2 seasons as a regular starter, and that was for Seattle, one of the worst teams in the league. After that, he was a journeyman. That's not the resume you want out of the #8 pick in the draft.

Dixon had 31 in a playoff game as a Wizard. Played 7 pro seasons. 77 starts. Best season averaged 12/2/2 with Portland.

77 starts in 7 years isn't a lot. It's a career backup who started a few times due to injury. Being a career backup as the #17 pick in the draft is disappointing.

You have hung that bust label on Jalen pretty early. DENI has been no better.

It's not me that hung that label. It's Phoenix. Not opting in on the 4th year of a rookie contract is pretty much the definition of a bust.

Now this here is one nice rabbit hole , nate33!

How good are #8 picks, typically?

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-8/

[Quote ]
2019Jaxson Hayes, Texas – New Orleans Pelicans
2018 Collin Sexton, Alabama – Cleveland Cavaliers
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers

2000’s

2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats (Draft rights traded to Golden State Warriors)
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets (Draft rights traded to Memphis Grizzlies)
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers (Draft rights traded to Chicago Bulls)

1990’s

1999 Andre Miller, Utah – Cleveland Cavaliers
1998 Larry Hughes, Saint Louis – Philadelphia 76ers
1997 Adonal Foyle, Colgate – Golden State Warriors
1996 Kerry Kittles, Villanova – New Jersey Nets
1995 Shawn Respert, Michigan State – Portland Trail Blazers (Draft rights traded to Milwaukee Bucks)
1994 Brian Grant, Xavier – Sacramento Kings
1993 Vin Baker, Hartford – Milwaukee Bucks
1992 Todd Day, Arkansas – Milwaukee Bucks
1991 Mark Macon, Temple – Denver Nuggets
1990 Bo Kimble, Loyola Marymount – L.A. Clippers[/quote]

My instant observation: The #8 pick is pretty hit or miss.

KCP and Terrence Ross are each having nice careers.

Wilcox had a decent career. Way better than a player a lot of us missed on. JOE Alexander (I don't recall being a fan of him). Araujo was a stiff. Never liked him. Jordan Hill was a bust.

Channing Frye certainly had a nice career--better than Wilcox.

Rudy Gay has been terrific for when he was drafted.

Jamal Crawford has probably been the best.

[Kanyewest]

It's funny but the guy nate called a solid player Joe Smith actually was drafted ahead of Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett.

Joe Smith played a long time but to me he was a bit of a bust considering he was equivalent with Tim Duncan in college.

“Love without limits, dream without fear and live in the moment.“

Apparently, I didn't make my point clear. Joe Smith was absolutely a bad draft pick for the reasons you say. He was, however, a solid player. The guy had 619 career starts and played 27,000 minutes. But it's damn disappointing to acquire a mere "solid player" with the #1 pick in the draft.

Even though Smith was taken at #1, in a redraft, I saw he would be taken at #8 according to a website. Kevin Heurter for instance while very solid may not be taken in the top 13 (although that may speak to the relative strength of the 2018 draft compared to the 1995).

Given Maryland's relative decline since the early 2000s it's not that surprising that they haven't been churning out quality pros given that they were no longer one of the top programs in the country. Gary Williams didn't seem to recruit as well after the national championship- exception probably being his last year with Greivis Vásquez. Guys from the DMV also don't appear to be going to UMD- ie Kevin Durant, Michael Beasley, Josh Hart, Jerian, Grant, Sadiq Bey, etc

Although maybe Turgeon can turn it around as Maryland is in the top 22. He did also manage to coach Khris Middleton at Texas A&M.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I believe Dante Scott is gonna have a pretty good NBA run.

Sent from my SM-A526U using RealGM mobile app

[I_Like_Dirt]

Chris Wilcox played 11 NBA seasons with 5 teams. Career PER 15. Once had 24 rebounds in a game. Started 261 games. Not a bust.

Wilcox never became a regular starter during his entire rookie contract. He managed to sign one half-decent $3-year $19M contract as a free agent, so I guess "bust" is overstating it. But he only had 2 seasons as a regular starter, and that was for Seattle, one of the worst teams in the league. After that, he was a journeyman. That's not the resume you want out of the #8 pick in the draft.

Dixon had 31 in a playoff game as a Wizard. Played 7 pro seasons. 77 starts. Best season averaged 12/2/2 with Portland.

77 starts in 7 years isn't a lot. It's a career backup who started a few times due to injury. Being a career backup as the #17 pick in the draft is disappointing.

You have hung that bust label on Jalen pretty early. DENI has been no better.

It's not me that hung that label. It's Phoenix. Not opting in on the 4th year of a rookie contract is pretty much the definition of a bust.

Now this here is one nice rabbit hole , nate33!

How good are #8 picks, typically?

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-8/

[Quote ]
2019Jaxson Hayes, Texas – New Orleans Pelicans
2018 Collin Sexton, Alabama – Cleveland Cavaliers
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers

2000’s

2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats (Draft rights traded to Golden State Warriors)
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets (Draft rights traded to Memphis Grizzlies)
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers (Draft rights traded to Chicago Bulls)

1990’s

1999 Andre Miller, Utah – Cleveland Cavaliers
1998 Larry Hughes, Saint Louis – Philadelphia 76ers
1997 Adonal Foyle, Colgate – Golden State Warriors
1996 Kerry Kittles, Villanova – New Jersey Nets
1995 Shawn Respert, Michigan State – Portland Trail Blazers (Draft rights traded to Milwaukee Bucks)
1994 Brian Grant, Xavier – Sacramento Kings
1993 Vin Baker, Hartford – Milwaukee Bucks
1992 Todd Day, Arkansas – Milwaukee Bucks
1991 Mark Macon, Temple – Denver Nuggets
1990 Bo Kimble, Loyola Marymount – L.A. Clippers

My instant observation: The #8 pick is pretty hit or miss.

KCP and Terrence Ross are each having nice careers.

Wilcox had a decent career. Way better than a player a lot of us missed on. JOE Alexander (I don't recall being a fan of him). Araujo was a stiff. Never liked him. Jordan Hill was a bust.

Channing Frye certainly had a nice career--better than Wilcox.

Rudy Gay has been terrific for when he was drafted.

Jamal Crawford has probably been the best.[/quote]Now do the 9th pick... Should the team with the 8th pick always try to trade down to 9th?

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[NatP4]

Maybe Franz Wagner is even better than I thought. What a performance.

[NatP4]

If we hadn’t traded Westbrook and fired Scott Brooks, I would currently be an Orlando Magic fan. Such a fun team. Anthony&Suggs in the backcourt with Carter&Bamba in the frontcourt, Wagner as the elite glue guy.

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter