James Wiseman 2021/2022

[Twinkie defense]

We took this guy with the #2 overall pick. We did it because there's a template there that can be something special - he can handle, he can shoot, he can rebound, he can block shots. If you bring him to the NBA and tell him "just do this" then that's all that develops.

Warriors need more time to figure out what kind of player Wiseman is, but I think we also have to be careful of the sunk cost fallacy... we drafted Wiseman to be a special player, a difference maker, but at some point you just need to get the best James Wiseman you can get, regardless of where he was drafted.

[FNQ]

We took this guy with the #2 overall pick. We did it because there's a template there that can be something special - he can handle, he can shoot, he can rebound, he can block shots. If you bring him to the NBA and tell him "just do this" then that's all that develops.

Warriors need more time to figure out what kind of player Wiseman is, but I think we also have to be careful of the sunk cost fallacy... we drafted Wiseman to be a special player, a difference maker, but at some point you just need to get the best James Wiseman you can get, regardless of where he was drafted.

Sure, but if you invest a pick this high in him, you give him a longer leash. We basically drafted a HSer, and he's had half a season so far, with not a single offseason or preseason game. At this point I wouldnt be OK with us limiting him until the completion of his 3rd season.. at minimum, the end of this season, but I'd like to give him at least one full offseason.

Truth is if that we turn him into just a defender/rebounder, unless he's elite at it, is something we can get for league min to MLE.. so its not all that pressing that we make that happen

[Sleepy51]

We took this guy with the #2 overall pick. We did it because there's a template there that can be something special - he can handle, he can shoot, he can rebound, he can block shots. If you bring him to the NBA and tell him "just do this" then that's all that develops.

Warriors need more time to figure out what kind of player Wiseman is, but I think we also have to be careful of the sunk cost fallacy... we drafted Wiseman to be a special player, a difference maker, but at some point you just need to get the best James Wiseman you can get, regardless of where he was drafted.

Sure, but if you invest a pick this high in him, you give him a longer leash. We basically drafted a HSer, and he's had half a season so far, with not a single offseason or preseason game. At this point I wouldnt be OK with us limiting him until the completion of his 3rd season.. at minimum, the end of this season, but I'd like to give him at least one full offseason.

Truth is if that we turn him into just a defender/rebounder, unless he's elite at it, is something we can get for league min to MLE.. so its not all that pressing that we make that happen

But he must become a passable defender and rebounder or it’s over. Right now, he’s a terrible rebounder and that’s probably the scariest red flag (and really the only one that gives me doubts.)

JW needs to learn to compete for boards when other physically relevant specimens are competing with him or it’s over. Even though it’s everything else that could make him special, everything else is secondary until he hits that benchmark. Jalil Okafor has all the offensive confidence in the world. Now he plays in Nigeria.

[FNQ]

Warriors need more time to figure out what kind of player Wiseman is, but I think we also have to be careful of the sunk cost fallacy... we drafted Wiseman to be a special player, a difference maker, but at some point you just need to get the best James Wiseman you can get, regardless of where he was drafted.

Sure, but if you invest a pick this high in him, you give him a longer leash. We basically drafted a HSer, and he's had half a season so far, with not a single offseason or preseason game. At this point I wouldnt be OK with us limiting him until the completion of his 3rd season.. at minimum, the end of this season, but I'd like to give him at least one full offseason.

Truth is if that we turn him into just a defender/rebounder, unless he's elite at it, is something we can get for league min to MLE.. so its not all that pressing that we make that happen

But he must become a passable defender and rebounder or it’s over. Right now, he’s a terrible rebounder and that’s probably the scariest red flag (and really the only one that gives me doubts.)

JW needs to learn to compete for boards when other physically relevant specimens are competing with him or it’s over. Even though it’s everything else that could make him special, everything else is secondary until he hits that benchmark. Jalil Okafor has all the offensive confidence in the world. Now he plays in Nigeria.

He can learn offensive game speed in the GLeague, and then come up to the NBA once he has that. If he's in the NBA straight away, he's going to continue to kill us on both sides of the ball until he gets it, if he gets it. Whether he competes for rebounds is not something that has any urgency to it - if we throw him into games in January or April, it makes no difference. But if in April he has a lot more confidence and the game has slowed down for him, then we can have him on the court learning defense/competing with bigger bodies longer than if we throw him out there as is and just hope the damage isn't that bad

He'll need to learn rebounding/defense regardless, because of his position and size. But he's killed us on the court, we're trying to win, and we have fine depth right now. We should take advantage of the situation given to us, because if we were a truly terrible team and had to start him like last year.. well thats how bad teams would waste picks and watch them do better at other situations, not unlike Wiggins

[Samurai]

But he must become a passable defender and rebounder or it’s over. Right now, he’s a terrible rebounder and that’s probably the scariest red flag (and really the only one that gives me doubts.)

I believe the narrative that he is not a good rebounder, but I'm not sure I would agree with the idea that he is a "terrible" rebounder. His TRB% last season was 14.4. Again, not particularly good. But at least it was higher than guys like Nerlens Noel, LeBron, Ben Simmons and Draymond. Obviously we'd all like to see him be a much better rebounder, particularly in traffic. But to be higher than those guys isn't "terrible". I still think "not good" is more accurate than "terrible". If he were lower than those guys, then maybe "terrible" might apply but 14.4 at least gives me some hope that he could become a passable rebounder.

[floppymoose]

But he must become a passable defender and rebounder or it’s over. Right now, he’s a terrible rebounder and that’s probably the scariest red flag (and really the only one that gives me doubts.)

This. It has happened that young bigs have gone from bad to good as rebounders. But it's rare.

[xdrta+]

From Kerr, "He needs to play. Before we put him into a game, he’s got to get real reps,” Kerr said. “Whether it’s a scrimmage in our practices or a game in Santa Cruz. Could be either, could be both. One thing I know is we’re not going to just throw him out on the court without really getting him up and down and getting him some game action.”

[Sleepy51]

But he must become a passable defender and rebounder or it’s over. Right now, he’s a terrible rebounder and that’s probably the scariest red flag (and really the only one that gives me doubts.)

I believe the narrative that he is not a good rebounder, but I'm not sure I would agree with the idea that he is a "terrible" rebounder. His TRB% last season was 14.4. Again, not particularly good. But at least it was higher than guys like Nerlens Noel, LeBron, Ben Simmons and Draymond. Obviously we'd all like to see him be a much better rebounder, particularly in traffic. But to be higher than those guys isn't "terrible". I still think "not good" is more accurate than "terrible". If he were lower than those guys, then maybe "terrible" might apply but 14.4 at least gives me some hope that he could become a passable rebounder.

I guess I'm applying some eye test/style points to come to "terrible." With his size and frame he should have just rebounded better by virtue of just being near the ball and vertically the closest player to it. Maybe our terrible implementation with him doing DHO's and hovering around the 20 foot range had something to do with him not getting offensive rebounds, but I feel like he should have been able to stumble into some more defensive rebounds the same way he stumbled into points.

[GQ Hot Dog]

This is why all the videos we saw of Wiseman in workouts prior to the draft were him developing guard skills. Ball handling and perimeter shooting mostly. Which is a great skillset for a 7fter to have but we still need him to do the things you always need from bigmen.

I disagree.. I'd say both are necessary for a player with his skillset. If he turns out to be a good defender, not a Gobert, but someone good.. was that a good use of a #2 overall pick? Is that all that different from what Looney and Nemo are providing us now? I mean they arent great, but if you can get 80% of what the hypothetically good defending Wiseman gives, for 1/2 of the MLE on 2 players, then that's terrible asset management. We need Wiseman to be 2 way, and he needs to be an impact player

Right now, I think its far more important to develop his offense and his comfort.. the worst thing you can be is lost on the basketball court, and he was definitely lost. He got better each time before the injuries fully derailed, but its all relative - he was still really bad. Thats why I'm big on sending him to the GLeague. Make him comfortable on the court, even against scrubs. I'm a fan of throwing rookies into the pool early so we can see where they are, then pulling them out and formulating a plan. With Wiseman, he's been thrown in. We know what we have currently, we know what he needs to work on. And since our C situation is fine right now, theres no urgency.

The big man stuff will come, but I disagree with 2 concepts that are pushed often here: 1, that its more important than his perimeter skills, and 2, that he should be on the NBA team immediately focusing on that. He can't focus on that in the GL, but also, he cant focus on the offense in the NBA. And it would be kinda damaging to his progress if we got his defense up to snuff in the NBA, then sent him to the GL to work on his offense. Unless we're going to also work on his offense in the NBA, but then we're going to be eating **** during those minutes.

I'm not sure where we disagree. When you say both are necessary, you're endorsing what I said when I said it's great for a 7fter to have a guard skillset but we still want him to be able to do bigman things.

If he's a KAT who likes shooting 3s but can't defend his position or protect the bucket(it seems he's improved) and gets eaten alive in PnRs is that much better than if he's a solid defensive big but has no confidence scoring other than assisted rim runs?

[Sleepy51]

Sure, but if you invest a pick this high in him, you give him a longer leash. We basically drafted a HSer, and he's had half a season so far, with not a single offseason or preseason game. At this point I wouldnt be OK with us limiting him until the completion of his 3rd season.. at minimum, the end of this season, but I'd like to give him at least one full offseason.

Truth is if that we turn him into just a defender/rebounder, unless he's elite at it, is something we can get for league min to MLE.. so its not all that pressing that we make that happen

But he must become a passable defender and rebounder or it’s over. Right now, he’s a terrible rebounder and that’s probably the scariest red flag (and really the only one that gives me doubts.)

JW needs to learn to compete for boards when other physically relevant specimens are competing with him or it’s over. Even though it’s everything else that could make him special, everything else is secondary until he hits that benchmark. Jalil Okafor has all the offensive confidence in the world. Now he plays in Nigeria.

He can learn offensive game speed in the GLeague, and then come up to the NBA once he has that. If he's in the NBA straight away, he's going to continue to kill us on both sides of the ball until he gets it, if he gets it. Whether he competes for rebounds is not something that has any urgency to it - if we throw him into games in January or April, it makes no difference. But if in April he has a lot more confidence and the game has slowed down for him, then we can have him on the court learning defense/competing with bigger bodies longer than if we throw him out there as is and just hope the damage isn't that bad

He'll need to learn rebounding/defense regardless, because of his position and size. But he's killed us on the court, we're trying to win, and we have fine depth right now. We should take advantage of the situation given to us, because if we were a truly terrible team and had to start him like last year.. well thats how bad teams would waste picks and watch them do better at other situations, not unlike Wiggins

I the earlier iteration of this conversation I came across the aisle already on using the D league. Just use it in circumstances where he's not going to cultivate bad habits and false confidence in a game that won't work in the NBA. Pick the spots, control the rotations, bring him up with the big club instead for games that run the risk of him battling liliputians. That's as far as I'm going to compromise on this. Yes, he needs to play basketball, but he doesn' need to be toying with irrelevant coast to coast dribbling nonsense and playing point-C ala Baby Jesus Randolph.

He needs to be guarding somebody. He needs to be learning the game with a meaningful physical resistance around him and he needs tall hands in his face distracting and swatting and pushing and challenging his every move so that he practices things that will actually work when there are tall hands in his face.

[GQ Hot Dog]

I've said before and I'll say it again, I'm totally withholding judgement on Wiseman until we see how he moves after growing into his body. He looked like he had never lifted a weight in his life last season which is why he was so out of control and unable to consistently grab rebounds that he got to. He moved like a clumsy teenager but from what I'm hearing he's definitely more grown into his man's body so let's see how he controls that body. It could be a night and day transformation.

[Samurai]

But he must become a passable defender and rebounder or it’s over. Right now, he’s a terrible rebounder and that’s probably the scariest red flag (and really the only one that gives me doubts.)

I believe the narrative that he is not a good rebounder, but I'm not sure I would agree with the idea that he is a "terrible" rebounder. His TRB% last season was 14.4. Again, not particularly good. But at least it was higher than guys like Nerlens Noel, LeBron, Ben Simmons and Draymond. Obviously we'd all like to see him be a much better rebounder, particularly in traffic. But to be higher than those guys isn't "terrible". I still think "not good" is more accurate than "terrible". If he were lower than those guys, then maybe "terrible" might apply but 14.4 at least gives me some hope that he could become a passable rebounder.

I guess I'm applying some eye test/style points to come to "terrible." With his size and frame he should have just rebounded better by virtue of just being near the ball and vertically the closest player to it. Maybe our terrible implementation with him doing DHO's and hovering around the 20 foot range had something to do with him not getting offensive rebounds, but I feel like he should have been able to stumble into some more defensive rebounds the same way he stumbled into points.

The trouble with the eye test is that is allows prejudice to color what we see. Wiseman seems to play in a "relaxed" style (the same criticism, if you are a long-time fan, that you will recall fans and writers gave to Kareem), and there is a prejudice that can sometimes make it appear that a "relaxed" player isn't trying as hard as someone who is constantly yelling, screaming and about to pop a vein in his forehead. For me, I am more focused on results than how a guy looks, but that's just me. Offensive rebounds are partly a result of offensive team style; if you put a guy far from the basket, he just won't get as many boards as someone who plays close to the basket. Kerr admitted that Wiseman spent too much time standing at the 3-point line and serving as a high post facilitator and has stated that will change this year. Kerr said that by putting Wiseman in those positions, he didn't give him the opportunities to play to his strengths. This season Kerr said you will see much more of Wiseman as a predominant roller to give the team that vertical threat on lobs where he excels. Which means we should see his ORB% tick upwards a bit. As it was, he was at 7.1% last season. Again, not particularly good but better than guys like Giannis and Ben Simmons. Obviously not saying Wiseman is a better pure rebounder than Giannis and Simmons, but those guys also play away from the basket which limits their opportunities. But for Wiseman to be at 7.1% compared to Giannis at 5.3% doesn't make either guy a "terrible" rebounder - you have to look at context and see what their role is and where the coach positions them on the court.

For those who can't get past the eye test, I agree Wiseman looks like a poorer rebounder than just focusing on the results so I can see where you are coming from. My only point is that if you can get past how bad he looks, his results weren't "terrible". Not as good as we would like, of course, but not "terrible".

[GQ Hot Dog]

Btw, LaMelo is oftentimes mentioned in regard to Wiseman. I'm watching Cavs at Hornets. LaMelo is about as bad a defender as he is a talented offensive player. He's like Westbrook bad in that he loves gambling for blocks and steals but makes no effort to stay in front of his man. Kerr and him would have issues.

Edit: And Mobley is as good as advertised. Future superstar.

[FNQ]

But he must become a passable defender and rebounder or it’s over. Right now, he’s a terrible rebounder and that’s probably the scariest red flag (and really the only one that gives me doubts.)

JW needs to learn to compete for boards when other physically relevant specimens are competing with him or it’s over. Even though it’s everything else that could make him special, everything else is secondary until he hits that benchmark. Jalil Okafor has all the offensive confidence in the world. Now he plays in Nigeria.

He can learn offensive game speed in the GLeague, and then come up to the NBA once he has that. If he's in the NBA straight away, he's going to continue to kill us on both sides of the ball until he gets it, if he gets it. Whether he competes for rebounds is not something that has any urgency to it - if we throw him into games in January or April, it makes no difference. But if in April he has a lot more confidence and the game has slowed down for him, then we can have him on the court learning defense/competing with bigger bodies longer than if we throw him out there as is and just hope the damage isn't that bad

He'll need to learn rebounding/defense regardless, because of his position and size. But he's killed us on the court, we're trying to win, and we have fine depth right now. We should take advantage of the situation given to us, because if we were a truly terrible team and had to start him like last year.. well thats how bad teams would waste picks and watch them do better at other situations, not unlike Wiggins

I the earlier iteration of this conversation I came across the aisle already on using the D league. Just use it in circumstances where he's not going to cultivate bad habits and false confidence in a game that won't work in the NBA. Pick the spots, control the rotations, bring him up with the big club instead for games that run the risk of him battling liliputians. That's as far as I'm going to compromise on this. Yes, he needs to play basketball, but he doesn' need to be toying with irrelevant coast to coast dribbling nonsense and playing point-C ala Baby Jesus Randolph.

He needs to be guarding somebody. He needs to be learning the game with a meaningful physical resistance around him and he needs tall hands in his face distracting and swatting and pushing and challenging his every move so that he practices things that will actually work when there are tall hands in his face.

Doesnt have to guard big men to understand defensive positioning, and thats where he's been especially weak. He's flat out not going to learn how to rebound at the NBA level anywhere but the NBA level, but the big man on big man stuff? Its a dying art, and that goes 10x in the W's system. If he's not a smart defender, or at least average in that way, we dont have a use for him. And he can get that in the GLeague, with the understanding that itll get quicker, stronger and longer at the next level. But he's never had an intermediate level before, and that's what college would have provided him. Because of it, he has nothing to fall back on except just usually being way bigger than everyone else in HS

I really dont think he knows the basics yet, which is why I'd like to see him run the same path as Poole did last year

[FNQ]

I'm not sure where we disagree. When you say both are necessary, you're endorsing what I said when I said it's great for a 7fter to have a guard skillset but we still want him to be able to do bigman things.

If he's a KAT who likes shooting 3s but can't defend his position or protect the bucket(it seems he's improved) and gets eaten alive in PnRs is that much better than if he's a solid defensive big but has no confidence scoring other than assisted rim runs?

Because everyone is placing the importance on defense - he has to do this, the offense would be nice, but he has to be a defender.. he has to be both. Lets be very honest - he's not going to be one of those elite defenders. Even when guys like Chandler and Dwight and even JON got to the NBA, they had defensive instincts. They just didn't have the strength or quickness to keep up with the NBA's bigs. But they always had the right idea of where to go (except Dwight, pretty much 100% relying on athleticism there).

Wiseman doesnt have that. And so every time someone says we "just need defense/rebounding" or how the offense is nice, *but*.. same difference to me. He has to be a 2-way big man if he wants to be anything above an average C, or fringe starting C. Because he's in a pretty deep hole BBIQ wise, and the only saving grace is that maybe not having a college career stunted that growth. But look at Mobley, he probably didnt need college to understand the NBA. Sengun is getting eaten alive at the moment but he's positionally doing fine. Its extremely rare to develop high BBIQ. So for someone like Wiseman, its just as important that he becomes an offensive weapon, or else the pick will be a disappointing one.

So to your question, which I'd rather have? I'd rather have the KAT, and by a fair margin, because our C's defend positionally. And we can find guys who can be decent defensive bigs with no scoring ability anywhere. But adding a scoring C that brings bigs out to the perimeter to allow more driving from Steph, Klay, Poole, and Wiggins? Yeah I'd definitely prefer that than the next Looney, or McGee, or whatever guy we can pluck off the waiver wire 2+ months into free agency

[WESCO]

Edit: And Mobley is as good as advertised. Future superstar.

Mobley is ABSOLUTELY incredible on both ends. He just has "it" and his natural feel on offense and defense are next level.

[Coxy]

Can't wait for Jimmy Wiseguy to get some action this season.

[tarantism]

Can't wait for Jimmy Wiseguy to get some action this season.

Same. His minutes will be fascinating.

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[WESCO]

Can't wait for Jimmy Wiseguy to get some action this season.

Same. His minutes will be fascinating.

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

I'm very curious to see his minutes with dray/Steph vs bench mob

[Twinkie defense]

The game is so new to Wiseman, I think I would rather that he focus on refining a small number of skills right now - he can build on those later, once he is proficient on the basics.