The truth about FVV

[YogurtProducer]

Pretty tired of reading this kind of casual take. Raptors had three starting spots that were pretty big holes in the starting line-up with Patterson, Carroll and JV. None of those guys made the team offense better for anyone else. JV was fine until you faced the better teams like the Cavs and then he put a real short ceiling on the team. There was nothing but congested lanes and bad shooting with those 3, yet they still went pretty far. It's amazing they even got as far as they did. Except there's a bunch of people still whining they didn't do better, like the fan thinks he deserved something else. Look at who they had. Imagine this team now with those three players in the front court and where do you think it ends up, among the worst.

Heat fans are loving Lowry, because of all he does, and he's shooting terrible. And the Heat are the best in the east right now.

Agreed regarding the holes in the lineup... but it was not JV, it was always Demar. He was the one that disappeared against teams like the Cavs. JV always showed up

Yeah JV always showed up against weaker teams ….at the expense of every other raptor on offence by ruining the spacing. Lowry and Demar had zero help. I mean, this was a new concept years ago but now it’s just common so it should be hardly arguable. It’s no coincidence that when Aldridge went to the perimeter DD had his first TS% of .600 that year finally.

JV performed well against Cleveland what are you on? 14/6 ans 16/12 in 24mpg in his 2 series’ against the Cavs.

So **** weird to blame JV for spacing when it’s Demar who was a terrible shooter at a position you need spacing, not JV.

Lowry/Demar had help - it was a lack of top end talent. Those teams had some combo of JV/Ibaka/Carroll/Patterson/Ross/Joseph/Powell/Anunoby/Siakam/etc. We constantly had the best benches inthe NBA for years, and it was Demar who absolutely disappeared. Don’t try and rewrite history. Those same teams minus Demar + Kawhi won a ring, and those same teams the year after accomplished more than Demar ever did here.

[ash_k]

The truth is: FVV got All-Star considerations last season and he is a better player this season.
He is one inch closer to being an All-Star.

[Johnny Bball]

Agreed regarding the holes in the lineup... but it was not JV, it was always Demar. He was the one that disappeared against teams like the Cavs. JV always showed up

Yeah JV always showed up against weaker teams ….at the expense of every other raptor on offence by ruining the spacing. Lowry and Demar had zero help. I mean, this was a new concept years ago but now it’s just common so it should be hardly arguable. It’s no coincidence that when Aldridge went to the perimeter DD had his first TS% of .600 that year finally.

JV performed well against Cleveland what are you on? 14/6 ans 16/12 in 24mpg in his 2 series’ against the Cavs.

So **** weird to blame JV for spacing when it’s Demar who was a terrible shooter at a position you need spacing, not JV.

Lowry/Demar had help - it was a lack of top end talent. Those teams had some combo of JV/Ibaka/Carroll/Patterson/Ross/Joseph/Powell/Anunoby/Siakam/etc. We constantly had the best benches inthe NBA for years, and it was Demar who absolutely disappeared. Don’t try and rewrite history. Those same teams minus Demar + Kawhi won a ring, and those same teams the year after accomplished more than Demar ever did here.

So very lol at the what am I on commnet. Dude... they ate us alive in the PNR for one. We only won games against CLE that he didn't play in the entire time and that's not a fluke.

And everyone else was shooting bad, there were few lanes to the basket. You had caroll and patterson that teams could lay off because they couldn't get to the rim and shot badly, JV in the paint with his man in tow or sloughing off him because he's no real threat from 3, or rolled so much slower than the guards, and thenyou had Lowry and Derozan. The fact that we got anything at the rim besides JV with the paint that packed was a positive. And if you want to argue JV was never the problem, I'll point you to the fact that they traded him away to win a championship and we did, that we had to replace him with Ibaka to get passed the Bucks. Spacing is a hell of an issue with him as was PNR defense. But if you want to pretend that didn't hurt eveyrone's ability to get to the rim, go right ahead, but you are only ignoring what was really happening. I mean calling DD or Lowry a choker in any series is just pure over simplification of what the issues really were on those teams and they were systemic, and that team was never going to win because of those issues.

[VanWest82]

We lost those Cavs series because we couldn't defend them and we couldn't defend them because Casey refused to play anything but man drop back PnR coverage. Casey refused to do anything but this because he didn't believe JV could guard anyone outside of the paint. This meant Demar had to play man and chase guys around off ball through screens which is his achilles heel.

Demar getting repeatedly lost or crushed on screens defensively led to him coming unglued offensively. He would've done so much better in Nurse's system with switching and zone to help him out. But it's in the past now. We need to let it go.

[Indeed]

Fred needs to do two things.

1. Recognize bigger defenders in the paint and stop trying to attack them.

2. Initiate the offense sooner. Dribbling the ball out for 10-15 seconds can be crippling to the offense.

More terrible takes. Why does this board act as if they took up basketball 2 years ago.

Hackett’ s right I remember when this board would heavily criticize lowry his first 2 seasons here. Then again during the bench mob run. Fred has done a great job to start this season the negative commentary needs to end.

I've played and coached at levels you have never sniffed at.

If you think dribbling down the clock is how you run an efficient offense you have no idea what you're talking about. Nurse and Bjorkgren wears some of this too. Choosing to look off passes to the wing in lieu off waiting several seconds to move the ball leading to a poor shot is not winning basketball.

Fred himself has acknowledged seeing everyone at the same height in his own words. He would be much better off pulling up off the dribble from the elbow as he did a bit tonight. Attacking multiple, taller defenders at the rim is not going to work in Fred's favour. I know he saw years of Kyle doing this but Kyle played angles much better and was strong enough to finish on occasion. That is not his game and there is no need for it to be.

Fred is doing fine but he sure as hell is not free of criticism. He's never been the only real starting caliber point guard we have minus stints where Kyle was hurt. Fred was the two guard next to Kyle and you can see him trying to find his way a bit. Fred's shooting has won us a couple games in a row but there are things he can clean up.

I love it when people try to pick at posts and have no understanding what they're talking about. Better luck next time. The irony in your post is that Kyle's first two seasons here certainly was not picture perfect either. He himself would agree with such an assertion, too. Fred, like Kyle is going to grow through him having the keys to this team's offense and he will be better for it.

Two things I want to add:
1) Lowry knows how to get to the line
2) Lowry has good vision to pass to the big (Lowry maintained the dribble and go behind the basket as well)

With the rule change, I don't think #1 would be feasible anymore, while #2 is no easy thing to improve. I think he is best to settle pullups mid range as you mentioned. Without Jonas, Gasol and Ibaka, he is not scoring the same way he did before at the rim.

[Raps1103]

Fred is a good player. Anyone who argues otherwise is objectively wrong. He's a good defender. He's a good shooter. He's a good passer. He isn't elite in any one area, but he does so much well that it doesn't matter.

Wait what ? He is definitely and elite defender !! He’s easily one of the best defensive guards in the league .. that’s not even debatable. ( there’s a reason Nurse stuck Freddy ( out of all the choices ) on Steph in the “Box and 1”, in the NBA finals !

He’s also pretty damn clutch ! He hits big shots in big moments !

[Raps1103]

he changed his game up. No longer finishing at the rim doing more passing and pull up jumpers. working out way better

I’ve noticed this too … doing WAY more midrange jumpers/step backs

[TorontoRapsFan]

he changed his game up. No longer finishing at the rim doing more passing and pull up jumpers. working out way better

I’ve noticed this too … doing WAY more midrange jumpers/step backs

This is great and gives his drives more options. Now if he adds some better fakes to get blockers off their feet, he can get making layups an option again. Before it was like, everyone knows when he drives, he's all in until he's under the rim. Shot blockers just keep him in sight until he's ready to shoot, and without a fake they get easy block.

[Raps1103]

Love Lowry but he is over rated by our fans. Guy rode the Kawhi wave to a championship and just cause he didn't "leave" gets casted as the GROAT. Lowry was just as big of a playoff career choker as Derozan. Lowry missed the game winning shot vs Brooklyn in 2014, acted like an ass after hinting he'd sign to another team (the Spurs). Signed with us cause we're the only team that would give him that money. Proceeded to get bullied and swept by Wall and the Wizards in 2015. Had a decent performance in 2016 but got spanked by the Cav's twice in 17 and 18 as both he and Derozan drooled over how amazing Lebron was. Threw a fit when Derozan was traded but to his credit corrected himself when he realized he could win a chip with Kawhi. Also missed the game winner in Game 5 vs Golden State.

Imagine this guy , saying this… and thinking he knows anything about basketball !!

I’d like to see one person, that agrees with any of this nonsense !!

[YogurtProducer]

Yeah JV always showed up against weaker teams ….at the expense of every other raptor on offence by ruining the spacing. Lowry and Demar had zero help. I mean, this was a new concept years ago but now it’s just common so it should be hardly arguable. It’s no coincidence that when Aldridge went to the perimeter DD had his first TS% of .600 that year finally.

JV performed well against Cleveland what are you on? 14/6 ans 16/12 in 24mpg in his 2 series’ against the Cavs.

So **** weird to blame JV for spacing when it’s Demar who was a terrible shooter at a position you need spacing, not JV.

Lowry/Demar had help - it was a lack of top end talent. Those teams had some combo of JV/Ibaka/Carroll/Patterson/Ross/Joseph/Powell/Anunoby/Siakam/etc. We constantly had the best benches inthe NBA for years, and it was Demar who absolutely disappeared. Don’t try and rewrite history. Those same teams minus Demar + Kawhi won a ring, and those same teams the year after accomplished more than Demar ever did here.

So very lol at the what am I on commnet. Dude... they ate us alive in the PNR for one. We only won games against CLE that he didn't play in the entire time and that's not a fluke.

And everyone else was shooting bad, there were few lanes to the basket. You had caroll and patterson that teams could lay off because they couldn't get to the rim and shot badly, JV in the paint with his man in tow or sloughing off him because he's no real threat from 3, or rolled so much slower than the guards, and thenyou had Lowry and Derozan. The fact that we got anything at the rim besides JV with the paint that packed was a positive. And if you want to argue JV was never the problem, I'll point you to the fact that they traded him away to win a championship and we did, that we had to replace him with Ibaka to get passed the Bucks. Spacing is a hell of an issue with him as was PNR defense. But if you want to pretend that didn't hurt eveyrone's ability to get to the rim, go right ahead, but you are only ignoring what was really happening. I mean calling DD or Lowry a choker in any series is just pure over simplification of what the issues really were on those teams and they were systemic, and that team was never going to win because of those issues.

2017 Stats
JV ON/OFF NRTG = -18.5/-11.5 (7 points better while on bench)
Demar ON/OFF NRTG = -20.7/+10.1 (30.8 point better while on bench)

2018 Stats
JV ON/OFF NRTG = -13.2/-14.4 (1.2 point worse while on bench)
Demar ON/OFF NRTG = -26.4/+17.4 (43.8 points better while on bench)

Also - what kind of arguements are these?

"And everyone else was shooting bad, there were few lanes to the basket. You had caroll and patterson that teams could lay off because they couldn't get to the rim and shot badly, JV in the paint with his man in tow or sloughing off him because he's no real threat from 3, or rolled so much slower than the guards, and thenyou had Lowry and Derozan."

- Ok so Demar and JV both suck at shooting 3's? But somehow its JV's fault but not Demars?

"I'll point you to the fact that they traded him away to win a championship and we did, that we had to replace him with Ibaka to get passed the Bucks. Spacing is a hell of an issue with him as was PNR defense"

- Pretty ironic considering how many times DD got benched for Powell in the 4th and we had comebacks. Demar is also an atrocious defender and is equally responsible for the poor PNR defense.

Also - he never got replaced with Ibaka, Powell came into the lineup and we went small. But that does not sound as good doesn't it?

Lastly - you remember Demar was traded for Kawhi...? Right? Kawhi was an OBVIOUS upgrade over Demar. When the Gasol trade happened people questioned whether it was truly an upgrade. Realistically, talent wise, it was not an upgrade but rather Gasol fit our system so much better as his strengths were a better fit as our 5th option than JVs were. I do that trade 10/10 times but the main trade that helped us win was the Demar trade.

So pretty much your arguement is "JV and DD both sucked at the same things" but you conveniently ignore that JV was MUCH better offensively. You can argue the fit was bad (which is borderline was) but that is DD's problem as a bad shooting, bad defending, inefficient (at the time) player is just a bad fit with everyone.

And I never once called Lowry a choker, because he always showed up. DD did not.

[Johnny Bball]

2017 Stats
JV ON/OFF NRTG = -18.5/-11.5 (7 points better while on bench)
Demar ON/OFF NRTG = -20.7/+10.1 (30.8 point better while on bench)

2018 Stats
JV ON/OFF NRTG = -13.2/-14.4 (1.2 point worse while on bench)
Demar ON/OFF NRTG = -26.4/+17.4 (43.8 points better while on bench)

Also - what kind of arguements are these?

"And everyone else was shooting bad, there were few lanes to the basket. You had caroll and patterson that teams could lay off because they couldn't get to the rim and shot badly, JV in the paint with his man in tow or sloughing off him because he's no real threat from 3, or rolled so much slower than the guards, and thenyou had Lowry and Derozan."

- Ok so Demar and JV both suck at shooting 3's? But somehow its JV's fault but not Demars?

"I'll point you to the fact that they traded him away to win a championship and we did, that we had to replace him with Ibaka to get passed the Bucks. Spacing is a hell of an issue with him as was PNR defense"

- Pretty ironic considering how many times DD got benched for Powell in the 4th and we had comebacks. Demar is also an atrocious defender and is equally responsible for the poor PNR defense.

Also - he never got replaced with Ibaka, Powell came into the lineup and we went small. But that does not sound as good doesn't it?

Lastly - you remember Demar was traded for Kawhi...? Right? Kawhi was an OBVIOUS upgrade over Demar. When the Gasol trade happened people questioned whether it was truly an upgrade. Realistically, talent wise, it was not an upgrade but rather Gasol fit our system so much better as his strengths were a better fit as our 5th option than JVs were. I do that trade 10/10 times but the main trade that helped us win was the Demar trade.

So pretty much your arguement is "JV and DD both sucked at the same things" but you conveniently ignore that JV was MUCH better offensively. You can argue the fit was bad (which is borderline was) but that is DD's problem as a bad shooting, bad defending, inefficient (at the time) player is just a bad fit with everyone.

And I never once called Lowry a choker, because he always showed up. DD did not.

why would I care about JV on off stats for the entire playoff when it was never even the point? You've not listened to one single point, no that was not my argument AT ALL, so I give. You're right. ... spacing doesn't matter anymore in the NBA. Big centres are all the rage because they make everyone's game easier all the time. JV won us and Memphis everything.

And FFS the conversation started because some guy called Lowry a choker Pay attention.

[OhCanada1091]

Fred's gonna be fine. Its pretty clear OG and Siakam are this teams horses. Fred runs the show. Barnes is basically the x-factor. Alot of his issues with shooting percentages and turnovers this season was also due to Achiuwa and Barnes terrible spacing. He's adapting well and should get even better when Siakam returns.

[Madhouse]

FVV can still improve and become an Allstar. Even if he doesn't, he is a good starter. Ultimately I think Masai would be fine to part ways with him and Siakam for a superstar but if that's not available he will be our starting guard for a while.

[YogurtProducer]

2017 Stats
JV ON/OFF NRTG = -18.5/-11.5 (7 points better while on bench)
Demar ON/OFF NRTG = -20.7/+10.1 (30.8 point better while on bench)

2018 Stats
JV ON/OFF NRTG = -13.2/-14.4 (1.2 point worse while on bench)
Demar ON/OFF NRTG = -26.4/+17.4 (43.8 points better while on bench)

Also - what kind of arguements are these?

"And everyone else was shooting bad, there were few lanes to the basket. You had caroll and patterson that teams could lay off because they couldn't get to the rim and shot badly, JV in the paint with his man in tow or sloughing off him because he's no real threat from 3, or rolled so much slower than the guards, and thenyou had Lowry and Derozan."

- Ok so Demar and JV both suck at shooting 3's? But somehow its JV's fault but not Demars?

"I'll point you to the fact that they traded him away to win a championship and we did, that we had to replace him with Ibaka to get passed the Bucks. Spacing is a hell of an issue with him as was PNR defense"

- Pretty ironic considering how many times DD got benched for Powell in the 4th and we had comebacks. Demar is also an atrocious defender and is equally responsible for the poor PNR defense.

Also - he never got replaced with Ibaka, Powell came into the lineup and we went small. But that does not sound as good doesn't it?

Lastly - you remember Demar was traded for Kawhi...? Right? Kawhi was an OBVIOUS upgrade over Demar. When the Gasol trade happened people questioned whether it was truly an upgrade. Realistically, talent wise, it was not an upgrade but rather Gasol fit our system so much better as his strengths were a better fit as our 5th option than JVs were. I do that trade 10/10 times but the main trade that helped us win was the Demar trade.

So pretty much your arguement is "JV and DD both sucked at the same things" but you conveniently ignore that JV was MUCH better offensively. You can argue the fit was bad (which is borderline was) but that is DD's problem as a bad shooting, bad defending, inefficient (at the time) player is just a bad fit with everyone.

And I never once called Lowry a choker, because he always showed up. DD did not.

why would I care about JV on off stats for the entire playoff when it was never even the point? You've not listened to one single point, no that was not my argument AT ALL, so I give. You're right. ... spacing doesn't matter anymore in the NBA. Big centres are all the rage because they make everyone's game easier all the time. JV won us and Memphis everything.

And FFS the conversation started because some guy called Lowry a choker Pay attention.

Again, if spacing is all the rate (I never argued it isn’t), then why is this all on JV and not at all on DD who in all honesty is a worse shooter?

We currently start Birch/Precious who aren’t 3 point shooters. Bucks won with Giannis. Lakers won playing Dwight solid minutes. Yes, shooting is important buts it’s a myth all 5 guys must be good shooters 100% of the time.

Everything you accuse JV of in actuality DD does worse, at twice the pay.

[Johnny Bball]

Again, if spacing is all the rate (I never argued it isn’t), then why is this all on JV and not at all on DD who in all honesty is a worse shooter?

We currently start Birch/Precious who aren’t 3 point shooters. Bucks won with Giannis. Lakers won playing Dwight solid minutes. Yes, shooting is important buts it’s a myth all 5 guys must be good shooters 100% of the time.

Everything you accuse JV of in actuality DD does worse, at twice the pay.

I mean your so closed minded if you can't even answer your own question honestly, that this is hopeless. I'll make you a deal, Don't talk to me about DD again, just quote someone else when you want to bitch. And when he makes the hall of fame, I'll be sure not to quote you either.

And this sure isn't the right thread for it.

[WaltFrazier]

I've been a big critic of Fred's game until recently, but he's playing great now. It's not that all the criticisms were wrong, but that he has changed his game and made improvements. Passing more, forcing it less. This midrange shot he is showing tonight against Wizards is something he's needed for awhile. It's great to see.

[mdenny]

I've been a big critic of Fred's game until recently, but he's playing great now. It's not that all the criticisms were wrong, but that he has changed his game and made improvements. Passing more, forcing it less. This midrange shot he is showing tonight against Wizards is something he's needed for awhile. It's great to see.

You guys aren't getting off that easy. Let's revisit the critiques:

Fred can't pass: wrong
Fred has no vision: wrong
Fred can't throw a lob: wrong
Fred is selfish: wrong
Fred isn't a good teammate: wrong
Fred is one of the worst PGs in the league: wrong
Fred freezes out teammates: wrong
Fred is jealous of Barnes: wrong
Fred doesn't know how to run an offense: wrong
Fred drives the rim too much: wrong (there's qualifications but it's still wrong)



Which begs the question.....which of the critiques weren't wrong?

[johanliebert]

I've been a big critic of Fred's game until recently, but he's playing great now. It's not that all the criticisms were wrong, but that he has changed his game and made improvements. Passing more, forcing it less. This midrange shot he is showing tonight against Wizards is something he's needed for awhile. It's great to see.

Nah the criticism was unjust he hasn’t changed much from game one. I’ll wait for the negative press when the raptors lose again cause winning cures all lol.

[aj174]

I've been a big critic of Fred's game until recently, but he's playing great now. It's not that all the criticisms were wrong, but that he has changed his game and made improvements. Passing more, forcing it less. This midrange shot he is showing tonight against Wizards is something he's needed for awhile. It's great to see.

Right on, watching him, there's been something different about the way he plays. I remember even with Lowry, he'd try to drive in and force the issue, FVV just goes in and probes more. His passes are starting to be more Lowry esque in a way, where its one step ahead. And that midrange game is silky smooth, oh man.

[WaltFrazier]

I've been a big critic of Fred's game until recently, but he's playing great now. It's not that all the criticisms were wrong, but that he has changed his game and made improvements. Passing more, forcing it less. This midrange shot he is showing tonight against Wizards is something he's needed for awhile. It's great to see.

You guys aren't getting off that easy. Let's revisit the critiques:

Fred can't pass: wrong
Fred has no vision: wrong
Fred can't throw a lob: wrong
Fred is selfish: wrong
Fred isn't a good teammate: wrong
Fred is one of the worst PGs in the league: wrong
Fred freezes out teammates: wrong
Fred is jealous of Barnes: wrong
Fred doesn't know how to run an offense: wrong
Fred drives the rim too much: wrong (there's qualifications but it's still wrong)



Which begs the question.....which of the critiques weren't wrong?

You can't say blanket wrong to all those points. Even tonight he played a great game, but struggled to execute half court offense down the stretch. Lucky for us the Wiz missed some clutch shots.

All the personal things on your list are red herrings, I never said Fred a bad teammate or selfish. He's a great leader. Awesome defender. But tonight a classic example happened. Gary had the ball in the middle of the break, hits Fred on the left wing with the simple bounce pass for a layup. Very next possession another steal to fast break, this time Fred has ball in middle with a teammate on his left. Does he make the same easy pass Gary just gave him? No he drives into a bigger guy, fortunately draws a foul and makes 2. Yes it's still 2 points but he could've been blocked too. No need to make difficult plays when easy ones are right there to make.

But he still played a fine game, shot well, scored 30. All that can be true and still his play can be critiqued for other things.