LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

[PistolPeteJR]

The East was often pretty weak and Lebron played with some pretty decent help. I’m not sure the number of times he made it out of that conference are that impressive.

So much this. I'm supposed to be impressed by the Heatles scrounging by billion year old KG with Ray and Paul Pierce playing like bums in 7 games then getting taken 7 again PG and Hibbert. Or am I supposed to be impressed with scalps of Chauncey Billups, Al Horford, Isiah Thomas, Kyle Lowry, and rookie Jayson Tatum (he's lucky the refs bailed them against the Pacers in the first place).

Responding to the rest ain’t hard, but it’s 4am here and bolded is more low-picking fruit than the rest:

You mean the play where Oladipo got the ball and ISOed up top because the refs gave the Pacers the ball, mistaking the ball going out of bounds off the Cavs rather than off the Pacers, which would have been the right call in the first place and wouldn’t have provided the Pacers and Oladipo with the ball?

[The4thHorseman]

How about 6 in 13 years vs 4 in 14? Still more impressive.
More titles is always better. Only people who really want to add this participation reward for losing are Lebron fans.

I mean ...no? There would have to be context applied. Michael Jordan isn't the only person with 6 rings, yet he is the most popular goat candidate - so obviously there are other factors.

I have no idea what a participation award is - the NBA playoffs is a tournament... it's objectively better to be in the finals than in round 1. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

You have to look at the context. LBJ had superteams in a weak eastern conference. That's why he is judged mainly through his finals record. Jordan lost early in his career, once they built a proper team around him, he didn't lose. LBJ formed super teams and still lost a lot.

1995 MJ lost.

[The4thHorseman]

It's objectively more impressive. I don't think there is really much question about that.

PM me your address so I can send you a dictionary for Christmas

Subjectively, LeBron being able to cake-walk to the Finals as often as he did and having a losing record there is not even close to going 6/6.

3 game 7's in conference in 7yrs (2012-18) is having a cakewalk often? Two of those he was down 3-2 in the series.

[G35]

Yet MJ not even top 25 in minutes played …. Where Lebron is top 5 . MJ took off seasons ….. where Lebron hasn’t . That’s terrible argument

That is the perfect argument.

Why does Lebron and other starx do load management...what is the purpose? To be fresher, healthier, and more ready when the playoffs come around. Which means the whole reason why Lebron took days off was to win in the playoffs.

So the bottom line is that taking those games off did not help Lebron win more, indicated by his W-L record in the finals. Jordan taking that year and a half off resulted in what?

Three straight titles......

The bulls were cornerstone super team of the 90s.... Lebron won multiply different franchises and faced the greatest RS of all time record wise down 3-1. That will never be matched

Another great point.

Why didn't Lebron ever create a cornerstone super team, instead of stacked, talented teams. Why did all of Lebron's teams struggle and not dominate to the level of other similarly talented teams?

Its not like you can blame era or player movement like you can in other eras...you can also say that one of Lebron's peers did it better than Lebron in creating a cornerstone team.

I see fans make the argument that Lebron had to face "the greatest team ever"...but why can't Steph Curry say he faced the greatest team ever? Why can't Kawhi say he faced the greatest team ever? Could it be that Lebron could not create a "greatest team ever" even with all the power he has to assemble handpicked teams?

[Cavsfansince84]

Another great point.

Why didn't Lebron ever create a cornerstone super team, instead of stacked, talented teams. Why did all of Lebron's teams struggle and not dominate to the level of other similarly talented teams?

Its not like you can blame era or player movement like you can in other eras...you can also say that one of Lebron's peers did it better than Lebron in creating a cornerstone team.

I see fans make the argument that Lebron had to face "the greatest team ever"...but why can't Steph Curry say he faced the greatest team ever? Why can't Kawhi say he faced the greatest team ever? Could it be that Lebron could not create a "greatest team ever" even with all the power he has to assemble handpicked teams?

Wouldn't the argument then(say if LeBron had played on even more talented teams which won 73+ games and more rings) be simply that LeBron had to stack the deck way more than any other player in nba history in order to win rings? I mean, I think that's what would be stated to diminish w/e he had accomplished in this scenario.

[HeartBreakKid]

That is the perfect argument.

Why does Lebron and other starx do load management...what is the purpose? To be fresher, healthier, and more ready when the playoffs come around. Which means the whole reason why Lebron took days off was to win in the playoffs.

So the bottom line is that taking those games off did not help Lebron win more, indicated by his W-L record in the finals. Jordan taking that year and a half off resulted in what?

Three straight titles......

The bulls were cornerstone super team of the 90s.... Lebron won multiply different franchises and faced the greatest RS of all time record wise down 3-1. That will never be matched

Another great point.

Why didn't Lebron ever create a cornerstone super team, instead of stacked, talented teams. Why did all of Lebron's teams struggle and not dominate to the level of other similarly talented teams?

Its not like you can blame era or player movement like you can in other eras...you can also say that one of Lebron's peers did it better than Lebron in creating a cornerstone team.

I see fans make the argument that Lebron had to face "the greatest team ever"...but why can't Steph Curry say he faced the greatest team ever? Why can't Kawhi say he faced the greatest team ever? Could it be that Lebron could not create a "greatest team ever" even with all the power he has to assemble handpicked teams?

Then that would mean James isn't the goat GM. Not really relevant to his playing ability.

I mean you have to realize this is a strawman argument, right? Curry had Durant join his team after his team was already arguably the best - so that is obviously why you can say that James faced the greatest team ever and not vice versa. I'm sure you at least thought about that.



As for the question - Lebron was the cornerstone of his franchise for 7 years and they were lousy without him. There is far from a promise that they'd get him a Scottie Pippen, much less any one else good so he left. I don't know why this is held against him still.

If Pippen doesn't develop into one of the best players in the league and the Bulls do not sign another all-star player like Grant, then Jordan would leave also. I feel like it's not a very difficult scenario to understand.

[Gooner]

I mean ...no? There would have to be context applied. Michael Jordan isn't the only person with 6 rings, yet he is the most popular goat candidate - so obviously there are other factors.

I have no idea what a participation award is - the NBA playoffs is a tournament... it's objectively better to be in the finals than in round 1. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

You have to look at the context. LBJ had superteams in a weak eastern conference. That's why he is judged mainly through his finals record. Jordan lost early in his career, once they built a proper team around him, he didn't lose. LBJ formed super teams and still lost a lot.

1995 MJ lost.

That was the year he came back, and it was his only loss once they assembled the team around him. LeBron built multiple superteams and lost many times.

[G35]

Another great point.

Why didn't Lebron ever create a cornerstone super team, instead of stacked, talented teams. Why did all of Lebron's teams struggle and not dominate to the level of other similarly talented teams?

Its not like you can blame era or player movement like you can in other eras...you can also say that one of Lebron's peers did it better than Lebron in creating a cornerstone team.

I see fans make the argument that Lebron had to face "the greatest team ever"...but why can't Steph Curry say he faced the greatest team ever? Why can't Kawhi say he faced the greatest team ever? Could it be that Lebron could not create a "greatest team ever" even with all the power he has to assemble handpicked teams?

Wouldn't the argument then(say if LeBron had played on even more talented teams which won 73+ games and more rings) be simply that LeBron had to stack the deck way more than any other player in nba history in order to win rings? I mean, I think that's what would be stated to diminish w/e he had accomplished in this scenario.

The whole premise of pro-Lebron argument is that Jordan had to face easier competition.

Jordan faced easier competition because he helped build an ATG dynasty. That is not his fault that he was able to create dominant teams. When did it become a negative to organically build a a dynasty? You can't have two dynasty's at the same time. The Bulls were a dynasty in the 90's....period.

Lebron even in his prime could not build a dynasty or even an ATG team for one year. The closest you might get is the 2012 team and that was a lockout shortened season. Lebron's forays into going to various franchises always ends in disaster:

Heat tenure - lose to an over the hill, one man show Mavericks team in the inaugural year to Dirk and the Mavericks...then bookend that with a complete slaughtering by the Spurs in a revenge matchup when they could have lost the previous season

Cavaliers 2nd run - pretty much ruined Kevin Love's career, Kyrie bailed out of a sinking ship, and if it wasn't due to an all time collapse by the Warriors this run in CLE would have been a disaster

Lakers tenure - misses the playoffs first year in the West...oh yeah injuries are always a valid excuse, then orchestrate a player manipulation to get AD to the Lakers, then go on to win in another weird way with the pandemic bubble situation, the following defense of the title and they lose in the 1st round, and this current year looks like its going to get very bad...I mean its looking really bad

But then you might say that its hard to put together talented teams and win in the era of player empowerment but then how did Steph Curry and the Warriors do it? How did they win three of four titles right in the middle of Lebron's prime? How did Giannis and Kawhi win titles with semi All-Star level players next to them but Lebron is trying to stack an All NBA team and can't get past the first round.

Other players were able to do what Lebron could not do. Lebron was not willing to put in the hard groundwork of building a team with chemistry and longevity. Lebron's teams are build-a-bear teams at best. If you look at what Russell, Magic, Jordan, and Kobe were able to do by staying with a team, going through hardships of losing and then not bailing out...coming back more determined, perseverance, it should have been the blueprint for Lebron.

Instead he took the easy way out...every time.....

[HeartBreakKid]

Another great point.

Why didn't Lebron ever create a cornerstone super team, instead of stacked, talented teams. Why did all of Lebron's teams struggle and not dominate to the level of other similarly talented teams?

Its not like you can blame era or player movement like you can in other eras...you can also say that one of Lebron's peers did it better than Lebron in creating a cornerstone team.

I see fans make the argument that Lebron had to face "the greatest team ever"...but why can't Steph Curry say he faced the greatest team ever? Why can't Kawhi say he faced the greatest team ever? Could it be that Lebron could not create a "greatest team ever" even with all the power he has to assemble handpicked teams?

Wouldn't the argument then(say if LeBron had played on even more talented teams which won 73+ games and more rings) be simply that LeBron had to stack the deck way more than any other player in nba history in order to win rings? I mean, I think that's what would be stated to diminish w/e he had accomplished in this scenario.

The whole premise of pro-Lebron argument is that Jordan had to face easier competition.

Jordan faced easier competition because he helped build an ATG dynasty. That is not his fault that he was able to create dominant teams. When did it become a negative to organically build a a dynasty? You can't have two dynasty's at the same time. The Bulls were a dynasty in the 90's....period.

Lebron even in his prime could not build a dynasty or even an ATG team for one year. The closest you might get is the 2012 team and that was a lockout shortened season. Lebron's forays into going to various franchises always ends in disaster:

Heat tenure - lose to an over the hill, one man show Mavericks team in the inaugural year to Dirk and the Mavericks...then bookend that with a complete slaughtering by the Spurs in a revenge matchup when they could have lost the previous season

Cavaliers 2nd run - pretty much ruined Kevin Love's career, Kyrie bailed out of a sinking ship, and if it wasn't due to an all time collapse by the Warriors this run in CLE would have been a disaster

Lakers tenure - misses the playoffs first year in the West...oh yeah injuries are always a valid excuse, then orchestrate a player manipulation to get AD to the Lakers, then go on to win in another weird way with the pandemic bubble situation, the following defense of the title and they lose in the 1st round, and this current year looks like its going to get very bad...I mean its looking really bad

But then you might say that its hard to put together talented teams and win in the era of player empowerment but then how did Steph Curry and the Warriors do it? How did they win three of four titles right in the middle of Lebron's prime? How did Giannis and Kawhi win titles with semi All-Star level players next to them but Lebron is trying to stack an All NBA team and can't get past the first round.

Other players were able to do what Lebron could not do. Lebron was not willing to put in the hard groundwork of building a team with chemistry and longevity. Lebron's teams are build-a-bear teams at best. If you look at what Russell, Magic, Jordan, and Kobe were able to do by staying with a team, going through hardships of losing and then not bailing out...coming back more determined, perseverance, it should have been the blueprint for Lebron.

Instead he took the easy way out...every time.....

You're making a circular argument - also what on earth are you talking about in regards to Giannis and Kawhi? He literally won a title the only year he was healthy there, and he won it in between Giannis and Kawhi's titles...


Honestly, a lot of the things you're saying are just made up things that people said on twitter 10 years ago. I mean he ruined Kevin Love's career? By getting him a ring? How good is Kevin Love now? lmao


The fact is you're basically making up some arbitrary rules saying a guy who won two more titles for one franchise is better than a guy who won two less titles on 3 different franchises. You're romanticizing staying on one team over free agency, when it's not relevant at all. You would be a car salesmen wet dream.

Nothing you said has properly addressed the very simple issue in that James lost to teams better than his own - just like Michael Jordan did. You're just trying to rephrase things in a way to make it seem like it's any different than that.

"so why did THE SUPER STACKED CAVS lose to the Warriors - HUH?!" I don't know, you tell me. Literally, if you break it down then it's pretty obvious. There's a hint, it's not because Lebron James isn't good. If you're rebuttal is calling out a strawman claiming "I never said James wasn't good" then the point already went way over your head.



In fact, the core problem with this argument and many people who bring this up don't realize something - Lebron James losing to better teams is objectively what happens. The only way that it doesn't make sense is if you say that Lebron James isn't the best player of his generation. If Lebron James IS the best player of his generation then logically he can only lose by having an inferior team.

It's literally A>B>C logic - unless you think Lebron James is worse than Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, etc.


Man, Ronaldo and Messi - these **** losers switching teams, just to play with other stacked teammates. What jabronis, they're probably like, not even that good.

[The4thHorseman]

You have to look at the context. LBJ had superteams in a weak eastern conference. That's why he is judged mainly through his finals record. Jordan lost early in his career, once they built a proper team around him, he didn't lose. LBJ formed super teams and still lost a lot.

1995 MJ lost.

That was the year he came back, and it was his only loss once they assembled the team around him. LeBron built multiple superteams and lost many times.

MJ was 31yrs old and in his athletic prime.

The complete opposite of "early in his career"

[G35]

You're making a circular argument - also what on earth are you talking about in regards to Giannis and Kawhi? He literally won a title the only year he was healthy there, and he won it in between Giannis and Kawhi's titles...


Honestly, a lot of the things you're saying are just made up things that people said on twitter 10 years ago. I mean he ruined Kevin Love's career? By getting him a ring? How good is Kevin Love now? lmao


The fact is you're basically making up some arbitrary rules saying a guy who won two more titles for one franchise is better than a guy who won two less titles on 3 different franchises. You're romanticizing staying on one team over free agency, when it's not relevant at all. You would be a car salesmen wet dream.

Nothing you said has properly addressed the very simple issue in that James lost to teams better than his own - just like Michael Jordan did. You're just trying to rephrase things in a way to make it seem like it's any different than that.

"so why did THE SUPER STACKED CAVS lose to the Warriors - HUH?!" I don't know, you tell me. Literally, if you break it down then it's pretty obvious. There's a hint, it's not because Lebron James isn't good. If you're rebuttal is calling out a strawman claiming "I never said James wasn't good" then the point already went way over your head.



In fact, the core problem with this argument and many people who bring this up don't realize something - Lebron James losing to better teams is objectively what happens. The only way that it doesn't make sense is if you say that Lebron James isn't the best player of his generation. If Lebron James IS the best player of his generation then logically he can only lose by having an inferior team.

It's literally A>B>C logic - unless you think Lebron James is worse than Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, etc.


Man, Ronaldo and Messi - these **** losers switching teams, just to play with other stacked teammates. What jabronis, they're probably like, not even that good.

Everything else you said is more love letter excuses for Lebron. But I highlighted an interesting part of your post.

You say I'm romanticizing staying with one team over free agency. I think that is the biggest problem that we have with people nowadays.

When things get hard, they quit and look for an easy way out...Lebron is a symbol of that. If you do not like something, then just leave.

You ever think how that works in relationships?
- in marriage it gets hard....just leave...find someone new
- raising kids are hard....just leave....your happiness is the only thing important
- job is hard...just leave....find an easier job

To be fair, I think everyone goes through moments when they dislike a situation and want to bail out. Or they see what someone else has and wonder what it would be like to be in that situation. I think that is natural to feel that way....why deal with situations that are not making you happy.

But I do not think people respect those that leave difficult situations because they are not willing to work to improve them.

What I see from Lebron is everything is about him, his legacy, his stats, his comfort level. Lebron is not willing to step out of his comfort zone and do what is best for the group/team. And his fans are all in on that mentality...I cannot count how many times I've read this response:
"Of course Lebron should have the ball all the time, who else should handle the ball...I can't believe that is even a question."

We are in a "do not criticize my hero" mindset...which is ridiculous...but it is what it is. If you do not see the value in creating team bonds through experience, failure, resiliency, determination etc etc. then its two different approaches. I see the value in staying the course and those who are willing to sacrifice short term success for long term success will point to those sacrifices.

Its not romanticizing staying with one team...a lot of players stayed with one team and did not win...Stockton and Malone come to mind. But I think fans see the effort and can respect that more than Lebron selling out franchises for his own personal goals.....

[The4thHorseman]

Another great point.

Why didn't Lebron ever create a cornerstone super team, instead of stacked, talented teams. Why did all of Lebron's teams struggle and not dominate to the level of other similarly talented teams?

Its not like you can blame era or player movement like you can in other eras...you can also say that one of Lebron's peers did it better than Lebron in creating a cornerstone team.

I see fans make the argument that Lebron had to face "the greatest team ever"...but why can't Steph Curry say he faced the greatest team ever? Why can't Kawhi say he faced the greatest team ever? Could it be that Lebron could not create a "greatest team ever" even with all the power he has to assemble handpicked teams?

Wouldn't the argument then(say if LeBron had played on even more talented teams which won 73+ games and more rings) be simply that LeBron had to stack the deck way more than any other player in nba history in order to win rings? I mean, I think that's what would be stated to diminish w/e he had accomplished in this scenario.

The whole premise of pro-Lebron argument is that Jordan had to face easier competition.

Jordan faced easier competition because he helped build an ATG dynasty. That is not his fault that he was able to create dominant teams. When did it become a negative to organically build a a dynasty? You can't have two dynasty's at the same time. The Bulls were a dynasty in the 90's....period.

Lebron even in his prime could not build a dynasty or even an ATG team for one year. The closest you might get is the 2012 team and that was a lockout shortened season. Lebron's forays into going to various franchises always ends in disaster:

Heat tenure - lose to an over the hill, one man show Mavericks team in the inaugural year to Dirk and the Mavericks...then bookend that with a complete slaughtering by the Spurs in a revenge matchup when they could have lost the previous season

Cavaliers 2nd run - pretty much ruined Kevin Love's career, Kyrie bailed out of a sinking ship, and if it wasn't due to an all time collapse by the Warriors this run in CLE would have been a disaster

Lakers tenure - misses the playoffs first year in the West...oh yeah injuries are always a valid excuse, then orchestrate a player manipulation to get AD to the Lakers, then go on to win in another weird way with the pandemic bubble situation, the following defense of the title and they lose in the 1st round, and this current year looks like its going to get very bad...I mean its looking really bad

But then you might say that its hard to put together talented teams and win in the era of player empowerment but then how did Steph Curry and the Warriors do it? How did they win three of four titles right in the middle of Lebron's prime? How did Giannis and Kawhi win titles with semi All-Star level players next to them but Lebron is trying to stack an All NBA team and can't get past the first round.

Other players were able to do what Lebron could not do. Lebron was not willing to put in the hard groundwork of building a team with chemistry and longevity. Lebron's teams are build-a-bear teams at best. If you look at what Russell, Magic, Jordan, and Kobe were able to do by staying with a team, going through hardships of losing and then not bailing out...coming back more determined, perseverance, it should have been the blueprint for Lebron.

Instead he took the easy way out...every time.....

Mavs were a one man team?? What's that say about the so-called "stacked" Western Conference, then?

Kobe took the hard way coming into the league??? He layed the groundwork by telling NJ not to draft him 8th overall and would only sign with LAL?? Publicly calling out your owner to make moves cause you're team isnt good enough? Publicly demanding a trade cause you're pissed off.

That's the blueprint rookies should try to imitate when coming into the league??

[dcstanley]

Another great point.

Why didn't Lebron ever create a cornerstone super team, instead of stacked, talented teams. Why did all of Lebron's teams struggle and not dominate to the level of other similarly talented teams?

Its not like you can blame era or player movement like you can in other eras...you can also say that one of Lebron's peers did it better than Lebron in creating a cornerstone team.

I see fans make the argument that Lebron had to face "the greatest team ever"...but why can't Steph Curry say he faced the greatest team ever? Why can't Kawhi say he faced the greatest team ever? Could it be that Lebron could not create a "greatest team ever" even with all the power he has to assemble handpicked teams?

Wouldn't the argument then(say if LeBron had played on even more talented teams which won 73+ games and more rings) be simply that LeBron had to stack the deck way more than any other player in nba history in order to win rings? I mean, I think that's what would be stated to diminish w/e he had accomplished in this scenario.

But then you might say that its hard to put together talented teams and win in the era of player empowerment but then how did Steph Curry and the Warriors do it? How did they win three of four titles right in the middle of Lebron's prime? How did Giannis and Kawhi win titles with semi All-Star level players next to them but Lebron is trying to stack an All NBA team and can't get past the first round.

I didn't want to take the bait but this is especially easy to refute. The Warriors managed to secure four players who would instantly command the highest available salary should they hit free agency. Not only were they fortunate enough to draft Curry, Thompson and Green, but each of those players signed their second big contracts under a completely different salary structure. When Curry’s extension started, the salary cap was at $58.7 million, while the 2016-17 cap ballooned to $94.1 million– a 46.3 percent increase. Even so, the rising cap alone wasn't enough to allow them to sign Durant. Curry's ankle troubles early in his career kept him from getting the type of extension that would have forced the Warriors front office to give up on an important piece like Igoudala to sign Durant. The Warriors were able to create this super-team of all super-teams because of a spike in the salary cap and Curry's contract that was under market value.. That is impossible to replicate.

Also, this is pretty reductive but Lebron has won on worse or comparable teams to the 2021 Bucks and 2019 Raptors against better competition than the 2021 Suns and the 2019 Warriors.

[G35]

Wouldn't the argument then(say if LeBron had played on even more talented teams which won 73+ games and more rings) be simply that LeBron had to stack the deck way more than any other player in nba history in order to win rings? I mean, I think that's what would be stated to diminish w/e he had accomplished in this scenario.

But then you might say that its hard to put together talented teams and win in the era of player empowerment but then how did Steph Curry and the Warriors do it? How did they win three of four titles right in the middle of Lebron's prime? How did Giannis and Kawhi win titles with semi All-Star level players next to them but Lebron is trying to stack an All NBA team and can't get past the first round.

I didn't want to take the bait but this is especially easy to refute. The Warriors managed to secure four players who would instantly command the highest available salary should they hit free agency. Not only were they fortunate enough to draft Curry, Thompson and Green, but each of those players signed their second big contracts under a completely different salary structure. When Curry’s extension started, the salary cap was at $58.7 million, while the 2016-17 cap ballooned to $94.1 million– a 46.3 percent increase. Even so, the rising cap alone wasn't enough to allow them to sign Durant. Curry's ankle troubles early in his career kept him from getting the type of extension that would have forced the Warriors front office to give up on an important piece like Igoudala to sign Durant. The Warriors were able to create this super-team of all super-teams because of a spike in the salary cap and Curry's contract that was under market value.. That is impossible to replicate.

Also, this is pretty reductive but Lebron has won on worse or comparable teams to the 2021 Bucks and 2019 Raptors against better competition than the 2021 Suns and the 2019 Warriors.

How did the Warriors manage to draft four players that would command the highest available salary?

After the Warriors got Steph Curry why didn't they try and trade for Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis or Kevin Durant. Why would they think that drafting Klay Thompson and Draymond Green would be the cornerstone of "the greatest team of all time".

Well the Warriors stayed the course...how did they do that:

- the Warriors drafted Draymond Green who was not a lottery pick talent...he wasn't even thought of as being better than David Lee...whom he replaced in the starting lineup because of injury. Where is Lebron's history of drafting 2nd round picks that become valuable enough to command the highest available salary

- Who else remembers when the Warriors were debating whether or not to trade Klay Thompson for Kevin Love...anyone else remember that? I was here in the Bay Area and it was a hotly contested debate.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2069317-report-warriors-dont-want-to-trade-klay-thompson-in-kevin-love-deal

Teams never want to trade valuable players. If they wanted to deal them, they wouldn't be as valuable. Parting ways with a burgeoning sharpshooter, who makes up one half of the NBA's best backcourt, would never be an easy loss to stomach.

But this is Kevin Love we're talking about, a three-time All-Star, grower of beards and video-game stat-poster. Like Bleacher Report's Grant Hughes says, to land him, you give up what you have to:

Talents like Love don't come cheap—even when their current teams are dealing from a position of weakness. But the chance to add a superstar doesn't roll around all that often, and Love isn't just any superstar.

He's an absolutely perfect fit for what the Warriors need.

So if it takes Lee, Barnes and Green, or Lee and Thompson plus a little more, the Dubs must pull the trigger.

Oh yeah...I know what it is Bleacher Report is probably a toxic site and the author knows zilch about basketball. But what Adrian Wojnarowski:

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--sam-mitchell-emerges-as-minnesota-candidate-with-kevin-love-s-future-undecided-074004019-nba.html

The Boston Celtics, Golden State Warriors, Los Angeles Lakers and Phoenix Suns are among many teams determined to make hard runs at trades for Love, league sources said. Boston and Los Angeles plan to make high-lottery picks in the 2014 NBA draft available in offers for Love, sources said.

Marc Stein has his take on the situation:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/10949807/kevin-love-tells-minnesota-timberwolves-sign-extension-likes-chicago-bulls-golden-state-warriors

Sources say that the Warriors, in particular, have emerged as a top contender for Love should Minnesota relent and decide to trade him. The Warriors don't have a stash of draft picks to offer the Wolves like Phoenix or the Boston Celtics could offer, but Golden State could assemble a trade package featuring the likes of forwards Harrison Barnes and David Lee.

ESPN.com reported in March that rumblings about the Lakers using their forthcoming high lottery pick to try to tempt the Wolves into trading Love were already in circulation.

So at that time, the Warriors were very interested in acquiring Kevin Love, who was seen as a superstar talent. But the Warriors decided to not break up their nucleus and roll with David Lee and a 2nd round pick Draymond Green, instead an All NBA player.

You know who didn't decide to develop young talent...you know who did have the #1 overall pick in the draft...you know who did trade for Kevin Love....no guesses, you know what happened. How can a team with Lebron James, Kyrie, and Kevin Love not be the prohibitive favorites. How can they not dominate the league.

Here are the facts:
Lebron was 1st team All NBA in 2014
Kevin Love was 2nd team All NBA in 2014
The only player on the Warriors to get any honors was Curry and that was only the All Star team

Intentions never matter...results are all that matter.

Lebron is the orchestrator of all his successes....and his failures......

[falcolombardi]

But then you might say that its hard to put together talented teams and win in the era of player empowerment but then how did Steph Curry and the Warriors do it? How did they win three of four titles right in the middle of Lebron's prime? How did Giannis and Kawhi win titles with semi All-Star level players next to them but Lebron is trying to stack an All NBA team and can't get past the first round.

I didn't want to take the bait but this is especially easy to refute. The Warriors managed to secure four players who would instantly command the highest available salary should they hit free agency. Not only were they fortunate enough to draft Curry, Thompson and Green, but each of those players signed their second big contracts under a completely different salary structure. When Curry’s extension started, the salary cap was at $58.7 million, while the 2016-17 cap ballooned to $94.1 million– a 46.3 percent increase. Even so, the rising cap alone wasn't enough to allow them to sign Durant. Curry's ankle troubles early in his career kept him from getting the type of extension that would have forced the Warriors front office to give up on an important piece like Igoudala to sign Durant. The Warriors were able to create this super-team of all super-teams because of a spike in the salary cap and Curry's contract that was under market value.. That is impossible to replicate.

Also, this is pretty reductive but Lebron has won on worse or comparable teams to the 2021 Bucks and 2019 Raptors against better competition than the 2021 Suns and the 2019 Warriors.

How did the Warriors manage to draft four players that would command the highest available salary?

After the Warriors got Steph Curry why didn't they try and trade for Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis or Kevin Durant. Why would they think that drafting Klay Thompson and Draymond Green would be the cornerstone of "the greatest team of all time".

Well the Warriors stayed the course...how did they do that:

- the Warriors drafted Draymond Green who was not a lottery pick talent...he wasn't even thought of as being better than David Lee...whom he replaced in the starting lineup because of injury. Where is Lebron's history of drafting 2nd round picks that become valuable enough to command the highest available salary

- Who else remembers when the Warriors were debating whether or not to trade Klay Thompson for Kevin Love...anyone else remember that? I was here in the Bay Area and it was a hotly contested debate.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2069317-report-warriors-dont-want-to-trade-klay-thompson-in-kevin-love-deal

Teams never want to trade valuable players. If they wanted to deal them, they wouldn't be as valuable. Parting ways with a burgeoning sharpshooter, who makes up one half of the NBA's best backcourt, would never be an easy loss to stomach.

But this is Kevin Love we're talking about, a three-time All-Star, grower of beards and video-game stat-poster. Like Bleacher Report's Grant Hughes says, to land him, you give up what you have to:

Talents like Love don't come cheap—even when their current teams are dealing from a position of weakness. But the chance to add a superstar doesn't roll around all that often, and Love isn't just any superstar.

He's an absolutely perfect fit for what the Warriors need.

So if it takes Lee, Barnes and Green, or Lee and Thompson plus a little more, the Dubs must pull the trigger.

Oh yeah...I know what it is Bleacher Report is probably a toxic site and the author knows zilch about basketball. But what Adrian Wojnarowski:

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--sam-mitchell-emerges-as-minnesota-candidate-with-kevin-love-s-future-undecided-074004019-nba.html

The Boston Celtics, Golden State Warriors, Los Angeles Lakers and Phoenix Suns are among many teams determined to make hard runs at trades for Love, league sources said. Boston and Los Angeles plan to make high-lottery picks in the 2014 NBA draft available in offers for Love, sources said.

Marc Stein has his take on the situation:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/10949807/kevin-love-tells-minnesota-timberwolves-sign-extension-likes-chicago-bulls-golden-state-warriors

Sources say that the Warriors, in particular, have emerged as a top contender for Love should Minnesota relent and decide to trade him. The Warriors don't have a stash of draft picks to offer the Wolves like Phoenix or the Boston Celtics could offer, but Golden State could assemble a trade package featuring the likes of forwards Harrison Barnes and David Lee.

ESPN.com reported in March that rumblings about the Lakers using their forthcoming high lottery pick to try to tempt the Wolves into trading Love were already in circulation.

So at that time, the Warriors were very interested in acquiring Kevin Love, who was seen as a superstar talent. But the Warriors decided to not break up their nucleus and roll with David Lee and a 2nd round pick Draymond Green, instead an All NBA player.

You know who didn't decide to develop young talent...you know who did have the #1 overall pick in the draft...you know who did trade for Kevin Love....no guesses, you know what happened. How can a team with Lebron James, Kyrie, and Kevin Love not be the prohibitive favorites. How can they not dominate the league.

Here are the facts:
Lebron was 1st team All NBA in 2014
Kevin Love was 2nd team All NBA in 2014
The only player on the Warriors to get any honors was Curry and that was only the All Star team

Intentions never matter...results are all that matter.

Lebron is the orchestrator of all his successes....and his failures......

what exactly does all this have to do with anythingh? is lebron a nba franchise or somethingh ?

was he supposed to make Anthony bennet, wiggins and dion waiters into the equivalente of draymond green, klay Thompson and Kevin durant?

[mcraft]

Use Jordan and the Bulls as the antithesis of LeBron and team hopping, not the Warriors. The Warriors benefited from Steph’s ankle issues and a huge salary cap increase allowing them to sign a top free agent unlike Jordan’s situation.

[dcstanley]

But then you might say that its hard to put together talented teams and win in the era of player empowerment but then how did Steph Curry and the Warriors do it? How did they win three of four titles right in the middle of Lebron's prime? How did Giannis and Kawhi win titles with semi All-Star level players next to them but Lebron is trying to stack an All NBA team and can't get past the first round.

I didn't want to take the bait but this is especially easy to refute. The Warriors managed to secure four players who would instantly command the highest available salary should they hit free agency. Not only were they fortunate enough to draft Curry, Thompson and Green, but each of those players signed their second big contracts under a completely different salary structure. When Curry’s extension started, the salary cap was at $58.7 million, while the 2016-17 cap ballooned to $94.1 million– a 46.3 percent increase. Even so, the rising cap alone wasn't enough to allow them to sign Durant. Curry's ankle troubles early in his career kept him from getting the type of extension that would have forced the Warriors front office to give up on an important piece like Igoudala to sign Durant. The Warriors were able to create this super-team of all super-teams because of a spike in the salary cap and Curry's contract that was under market value.. That is impossible to replicate.

Also, this is pretty reductive but Lebron has won on worse or comparable teams to the 2021 Bucks and 2019 Raptors against better competition than the 2021 Suns and the 2019 Warriors.

You know who didn't decide to develop young talent...you know who did have the #1 overall pick in the draft...you know who did trade for Kevin Love....no guesses, you know what happened. How can a team with Lebron James, Kyrie, and Kevin Love not be the prohibitive favorites. How can they not dominate the league.

Lebron, Love, and Kyrie only played two full seasons together.. They won a championship in their first full season together and they lost to the greatest team of all time in their second full season together. The Cavs posted one of the greatest playoff offenses of all time. They were about as great as you can expect a team with that nucleus to be. Do you really think they would have been better off drafting and developing Andrew Wiggins?

[falcolombardi]

Use Jordan and the Bulls as the antithesis of LeBron and team hopping, not the Warriors. The Warriors benefited from Steph’s ankle issues and a huge salary cap increase allowing them to sign a top free agent unlike Jordan’s situation.

is not lebron fault that the cavs got mo Williams and varejao instead of scottie pippen and horace grant

not to say anythingh about Phil Jackson vs mike brown

[mcraft]

Use Jordan and the Bulls as the antithesis of LeBron and team hopping, not the Warriors. The Warriors benefited from Steph’s ankle issues and a huge salary cap increase allowing them to sign a top free agent unlike Jordan’s situation.

is not lebron fault that the cavs got mo Williams and varejao instead of scottie pippen and horace grant

Agreed. I am of the opinion that LeBron would probably be fortunate to have one ring if he would have stayed in Cleveland his entire career. But I get that the way he has changed teams and stuff doesn’t appeal to everyone.

[falcolombardi]

I didn't want to take the bait but this is especially easy to refute. The Warriors managed to secure four players who would instantly command the highest available salary should they hit free agency. Not only were they fortunate enough to draft Curry, Thompson and Green, but each of those players signed their second big contracts under a completely different salary structure. When Curry’s extension started, the salary cap was at $58.7 million, while the 2016-17 cap ballooned to $94.1 million– a 46.3 percent increase. Even so, the rising cap alone wasn't enough to allow them to sign Durant. Curry's ankle troubles early in his career kept him from getting the type of extension that would have forced the Warriors front office to give up on an important piece like Igoudala to sign Durant. The Warriors were able to create this super-team of all super-teams because of a spike in the salary cap and Curry's contract that was under market value.. That is impossible to replicate.

Also, this is pretty reductive but Lebron has won on worse or comparable teams to the 2021 Bucks and 2019 Raptors against better competition than the 2021 Suns and the 2019 Warriors.

You know who didn't decide to develop young talent...you know who did have the #1 overall pick in the draft...you know who did trade for Kevin Love....no guesses, you know what happened. How can a team with Lebron James, Kyrie, and Kevin Love not be the prohibitive favorites. How can they not dominate the league.

Lebron, Love, and Kyrie only played two full seasons together.. They won a championship in their first full season together and they lost to the greatest team of all time in their second full season together. The Cavs posted one of the greatest playoff offenses of all time. They were about as great as you can expect a team with that nucleus to be. Do you really think they would have been better off drafting and developing Andrew Wiggins?

the same people who lionize the warriors for developing their draft picks into stars tend to be the ones who get angry warriors are wasting the end of curry prime by developing wiseman/kuminga instead of trading for a win now player to go for a ring