Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[SfBull]

People are jerks.

Sorry Pat I apologize for all these fake ass fans. Keep working hard kid.

Wait long enough and the fool reveals himself.

The people on this thread are out of control. He was one of the best rookies last year. Shot the ball well, played solid defense. He was the 5th option on offense and the only defender in the lineup, just like this year. Kid plays with an ankle and a shoulder injury and 4 games into the season people are calling him a bust when he gets unlucky on a flagrant foul that lands him with a season-ending injury. This garbage is mind blowing.

He shouldn't need to be starting nor even playing injured just because we had a player like Green who was better than him in preseason games and played very well when starting yesterday against the Jazz .You guys are so enthusiastic with Pat that apparently can't get the reality that he simply wasn't playing well before his injury and the Bulls were suffering starting him.So again what's exactly the problem in benching a guy who isn't playing well?Just because he was drafted high?Take a guy like Bagley who was drafted ahead of the future HOF Doncic and is out King's rotation
https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2021/10/19/22735525/marvin-bagley-agent-statement-luke-walton-rotation-sacramento-kings
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/why-did-kings-bench-marvin-bagley/1pv4crori879s1anlxbotc6zcf
C'mon man,we aren't talking about an all star .

[GoBlue72391]

People are jerks.

Sorry Pat I apologize for all these fake ass fans. Keep working hard kid.

Wait long enough and the fool reveals himself.

The people on this thread are out of control. He was one of the best rookies last year. Shot the ball well, played solid defense. He was the 5th option on offense and the only defender in the lineup, just like this year. Kid plays with an ankle and a shoulder injury and 4 games into the season people are calling him a bust when he gets unlucky on a flagrant foul that lands him with a season-ending injury. This garbage is mind blowing.

It's out of control going both ways.

The people blaming his injury on his passive and timid playstyle are absurd and there's nothing to back up such a ridiculous claim. They're just using it as an opportunity to kick a guy while he's down and dump on a player they don't like/don't believe in. The fact is he got injured on one of, if not the most, aggressive play he's ever attempted at the NBA level. It's great to see him try things out of his comfort zone, it's just unfortunate that it ended so poorly. Hopefully when he returns the injury won't cause him to be even more passive.

On the other hand, the people who are saying he suffered a potentially career-ending and/or life-altering injury are just as absurd and have just as much (i.e. nothing) to back up those ridiculous claims. It's a wrist injury on his non-shooting hand, not a brain injury or a ruptured knee. The Bulls organization has said he could be back for the playoffs, which that in itself proves it is not a career-ending or life-altering injury in any way, shape, or form. It's just hysteria brought on by doom-and-gloomers who "did their own research" and believe PWill should now be immune from any and all forms of criticism due to suffering such a debilitating injury. If the Bulls medical staff comes out and says this is an extremely severe injury that could end his career and/or alter his life, then I'll buy that narrative. Until then, some cursory Googling and anecdotal evidence isn't enough to send me into panic mode.

It's absolutely awful that such a seemingly fantastic young man and apparent hard worker suffered an injury serious enough to end his season, and it will almost certainly hinder his development timeframe, but there's no need to exaggerate and make it more than it is. This injury could have long-term effects on both PWill and the Bulls, but in the short-term it likely won't affect the team to the degree that losing a starter for the entire season would normally have. He wasn't contributing at the level of a rotation piece, much less a starter, so of any of our players to get injured he is probably the one who we could best adapt to losing, even with our sub-par PF options.

[Darius Miles Davis]

A few days ago, I saw that Pat's surgery was going to be yesterday, on Halloween. I haven't heard a word on how it went, and I can't find anything on Twitter. We may have to wait for the latest Bulls Talk Podcast to get some info.

[tsek4]

I wish him quick recovery. He has a lot to prove not just to justify his pick at the fourth but also his starting spot.
I was a big fan of him but I am loosing faith. He will have to do a 180 in both availability and skill to help us improve.
Scottie Barnes is how a player that was drafted that high should perform.

[Andi Obst]

He will have to do a 180 in both availability and skill to help us improve.

???

He missed a grand total of one (1) NBA game before this injury.

[Michael Jackson]

I wish him quick recovery. He has a lot to prove not just to justify his pick at the fourth but also his starting spot.
I was a big fan of him but I am loosing faith. He will have to do a 180 in both availability and skill to help us improve.
Scottie Barnes is how a player that was drafted that high should perform.

Maybe that is how high they should perform, but that isn’t the reality of the #4 pick. In fact Pat might still be the best #4 pick of Tyrus, Curry and Fizer that the Bulls have chosen. With that list pat is performing on par I would think. If you look at the overall list, there are some better and some worse on the list but P Will 1 year in seems pretty average for this pick position. Consider too that the draft he was chosen in was considered one of the very worst classes, and Barnes class was drooled over for a couple years. While I think I would prefer JJJ he hasn’t really proven he is healthier or better than Pat yet at there stages of their careers.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-4/

[sco]

I'm being optimistic that he gets to come back and play a little this season so that he can take something from the season.

[Michael Jackson]

I'm being optimistic that he gets to come back and play a little this season so that he can take something from the season.

I like that idea. Even if it is a few spot minutes, but at least to absorb more of this new culture so he can carry it into the offseason.

[kodo]

I wish him quick recovery. He has a lot to prove not just to justify his pick at the fourth but also his starting spot.
I was a big fan of him but I am loosing faith. He will have to do a 180 in both availability and skill to help us improve.
Scottie Barnes is how a player that was drafted that high should perform.

Maybe that is how high they should perform, but that isn’t the reality of the #4 pick. In fact Pat might still be the best #4 pick of Tyrus, Curry and Fizer that the Bulls have chosen. With that list pat is performing on par I would think. If you look at the overall list, there are some better and some worse on the list but P Will 1 year in seems pretty average for this pick position. Consider too that the draft he was chosen in was considered one of the very worst classes, and Barnes class was drooled over for a couple years. While I think I would prefer JJJ he hasn’t really proven he is healthier or better than Pat yet at there stages of their careers.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-4/

Agreed. He was #4 in a 3 player draft. I remember when we won they interviewed AK, and his first reaction was something along the lines of "I was hoping for higher, but I'll take it." He wasn't exactly leaping for joy.

Drafts are never a linear arrangement of talent, there are tiers. The tier of players from 4-15 were all roughly the same, with Haliburton being the standout. Cole Anthony was projected to go 4 at one point, went 15. That's how flat it was after #3. Winning the lotto didn't really help us vs staying pat. There were rumors from a good source (I think KC) that AK was trying to trade down in this draft.

For me Patrick is our 1st round pick, so we're of course rooting for him. But I don't see him as some kind of special savior because he's a #4. I don't have any higher expectations of him than Coby or Wendell.

[sco]

I wish him quick recovery. He has a lot to prove not just to justify his pick at the fourth but also his starting spot.
I was a big fan of him but I am loosing faith. He will have to do a 180 in both availability and skill to help us improve.
Scottie Barnes is how a player that was drafted that high should perform.

Maybe that is how high they should perform, but that isn’t the reality of the #4 pick. In fact Pat might still be the best #4 pick of Tyrus, Curry and Fizer that the Bulls have chosen. With that list pat is performing on par I would think. If you look at the overall list, there are some better and some worse on the list but P Will 1 year in seems pretty average for this pick position. Consider too that the draft he was chosen in was considered one of the very worst classes, and Barnes class was drooled over for a couple years. While I think I would prefer JJJ he hasn’t really proven he is healthier or better than Pat yet at there stages of their careers.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/history-of-the-nba-draft-by-pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-4/

Agreed. He was #4 in a 3 player draft. I remember when we won they interviewed AK, and his first reaction was something along the lines of "I was hoping for higher, but I'll take it." He wasn't exactly leaping for joy.

Drafts are never a linear arrangement of talent, there are tiers. The tier of players from 4-15 were all roughly the same, with Haliburton being the standout. Cole Anthony was projected to go 4 at one point, went 15. That's how flat it was after #3. Winning the lotto didn't really help us vs staying pat. There were rumors from a good source (I think KC) that AK was trying to trade down in this draft.

For me Patrick is our 1st round pick, so we're of course rooting for him. But I don't see him as some kind of special savior because he's a #4. I don't have any higher expectations of him than Coby or Wendell.

Pat's value from a pick perspective was that he was jack-of-all-trades player. He had all of the measurables and, skillwise, he can do everything on both ends. Of course the rest of that statement is that he is also a "master of none" guy - in that he really isn't elite at anything, and for him to become more than an average, well-rounded player, his work ethic either will or won't get him there.

[DuckIII]

I'm being optimistic that he gets to come back and play a little this season so that he can take something from the season.

I like that idea. Even if it is a few spot minutes, but at least to absorb more of this new culture so he can carry it into the offseason.

That would be great. Unfortunately even if that’s possible I have huge concerns about Pat now. As I’ve made painfully clear I think he has both the tools and the talent to be a third star player along with Zach and Zo down the line.

But his mindset and aggression are huge question marks. Missing this whole year could be devastating to a player with his particular issues. I’m not at all confident he will return well from this. Every way I look at it, it projects terribly.

The only bright side is that because he’s a project his injury should not be too harmful to the product this season.

[Wingy]

I'm being optimistic that he gets to come back and play a little this season so that he can take something from the season.

I like that idea. Even if it is a few spot minutes, but at least to absorb more of this new culture so he can carry it into the offseason.

A taste of the playoffs would be awesome.

[GoBlue72391]

Regardless of what you personally think of PWill's upside, I think we can all agree that his return from injury could very well be the make-or-break moment for him. Much like Coby, his future with the Bulls is currently up in the air.

[panthermark]

I was just looking at the numbers. Maybe some of this was injury (ankle and shoulder)....but his rebounding numbers fell by almost 50% from last year.

This year, he was basically the WORST rebounder on the team. If you exclude Matt "2 total minutes" Thomas, Per36m/Per100p/%, he barely beats Caruso in Defensive and Total rebounds. Caruso actually beats him in offensive rebounds.

What happened from last year?

[logical_art]

I was just looking at the numbers. Maybe some of this was injury (ankle and shoulder)....but his rebounding numbers fell by almost 50% from last year.

This year, he was basically the WORST rebounder on the team. If you exclude Matt "2 total minutes" Thomas, Per36m/Per100p/%, he barely beats Caruso in Defensive and Total rebounds. Caruso actually beats him in offensive rebounds.

What happened from last year?

Small sample.

[sco]

I was just looking at the numbers. Maybe some of this was injury (ankle and shoulder)....but his rebounding numbers fell by almost 50% from last year.

This year, he was basically the WORST rebounder on the team. If you exclude Matt "2 total minutes" Thomas, Per36m/Per100p/%, he barely beats Caruso in Defensive and Total rebounds. Caruso actually beats him in offensive rebounds.

What happened from last year?

Lauri isn't on the team anymore to let those RB's go elsewhere.

[CaPiTanAK]

I was just looking at the numbers. Maybe some of this was injury (ankle and shoulder)....but his rebounding numbers fell by almost 50% from last year.

This year, he was basically the WORST rebounder on the team. If you exclude Matt "2 total minutes" Thomas, Per36m/Per100p/%, he barely beats Caruso in Defensive and Total rebounds. Caruso actually beats him in offensive rebounds.

What happened from last year?

Lauri isn't on the team anymore to let those RB's go elsewhere.

He thought that being a wimp and playing like a wuss would be alright given two All stars to bail him out… wrong thought process. He’s about to become the whipping boy of the entire Darko Milicic style if he doesn’t come back with some aggression and passion in his playing style.

[Michael Jackson]

I'm being optimistic that he gets to come back and play a little this season so that he can take something from the season.

I like that idea. Even if it is a few spot minutes, but at least to absorb more of this new culture so he can carry it into the offseason.

That would be great. Unfortunately even if that’s possible I have huge concerns about Pat now. As I’ve made painfully clear I think he has both the tools and the talent to be a third star player along with Zach and Zo down the line.

But his mindset and aggression are huge question marks. Missing this whole year could be devastating to a player with his particular issues. I’m not at all confident he will return well from this. Every way I look at it, it projects terribly.

The only bright side is that because he’s a project his injury should not be too harmful to the product this season.

Oh I have major worries about his ability for the future no doubt. That being said I never thought Pat would be a franchise changer, he was never projected to be but somehow that hype was built around him. He can be but I just don't think he has the mindset to use all his tools to full effect. I'd trade him, not saying he is going to be a bust but I will take the one in the hand over the 2 in the bush.

[Portiseyes]

I think it's reasonable to expect that a nagging ankle and shoulder injury could have impacted his rebounding numbers. That was the aspect of his game that was most concerning to me before the wrist injury happened... most problematic for team play. Projecting forward, he has to play aggressive, period, when he gets back. That will open everything else up for him. If that means he is better coming off the bench in shorter minutes so he keeps his wind, so be it. This is what I was saying on this board before the season started. Really thought he should have been forced to earn his starting minutes, esp after missing almost all of camp. BD was boxed in the corner a bit by roster construction and health, but this was his only big misstep imo.

[Michael Jackson]

I think it's reasonable to expect that a nagging ankle and shoulder injury could have impacted his rebounding numbers. That was the aspect of his game that was most concerning to me before the wrist injury happened... most problematic for team play. Projecting forward, he has to play aggressive, period, when he gets back. That will open everything else up for him. If that means he is better coming off the bench in shorter minutes so he keeps his wind, so be it. This is what I was saying on this board before the season started. Really thought he should have been forced to earn his starting minutes, esp after missing almost all of camp. BD was boxed in the corner a bit by roster construction and health, but this was his only big misstep imo.

For sure those injuries had an effect. 100% agree though especially with this new team where everyone is fighting for a spot Pat should have been thrown in the mix with that. Being gifted a starting position last season by default did him no good IMHO. I can't even imagine the amount of Tums that Thibs had to take when he thought about that.