bigfoot wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:[spoiler]
bigfoot wrote:
1) Well you could be right about Jalen's potential. However, it may take a stint overseas like PJ Tucker and Cameron Payne for it to be realized. It certainly won't happen playing for the Suns who are trying to contend. In that light, the Suns did him a favor cutting him loose next year.
2) Since 1998 the Suns have made 35 selections in the first round. Of those only 7 have been worthy players ... Ayton, Booker, Amare, Marion, Nash, Finley, and Marjele. Only about 20% success rate in getting a high-quality starter. My guess is those are pretty typical numbers for most franchises. Your hindsight tends to point out who we passed on and that the Suns have made bad draft picks. Sure they have made lots of poor choices. Wants some proof ... https://www.theringer.com/2021/7/28/22597310/nba-draft-expectations. Look at the draft track record since 2004 chart. Second to last. But notice the important thing ... all the worst teams in that chart seem to have high draft picks that really bombed. All the best teams find the diamond in the rough later in the 1st or early 2nd round. Those teams usually have sustained winning seasons too. That's because it's about culture not high picks. The Suns lost that winning culture with McD who insisted on tanking. I know the draft is your thing but I could care less about jockeying for a draft pick by purposely tanking versus teaching the proper winning culture.
3) The fact is Smith can't crack the rotation over Crowder, Cam Johnson, Ayton, McGee, or Kaminsky. He HAS flaws in his game. Monty doesn't trust him because of those flaws. Monty wouldn't ever point out those flaws in pressers as the reason why he does not play Smith. Sure Smith is in a crap situation being on a playoff-caliber team. I still contend that there are plenty of examples where a rookie or second-year player contributed to a playoff team. If the player is good enough to crack the rotation he will. Jalen is not. It's too bad he's a hard worker but it hasn't paid off. Still, there might be problems that we are unaware of that made Suns' decision to let him go much easier.
4) Bridges and Cam did have to fight for minutes. Hell Cam is still trying to fight for a starting position over Crowder. The difference is they were better than the other players on the team and earned time. Smith is not. Contrast Bridges' and Cam's playing time to say, Josh Jackson, Chriss, and Bender. Those guys were gifted minutes that they did not earn. Those guys contributed to a losing culture. James Jones has eliminated the culture of gifted minutes and Smith could not crack into a winning culture. Too bad. You might look at him as an asset but there are two types ... positive and negative. You keep or find value through trades from positive assets and jettison negative assets. Smith might be a nice kid who works hard but he was a negative asset on the financial side.
Finally, whatever luxury tax-saving we get from Smith can be used on contracts for Ayton, Cam Johnson, the MLE, or the BAE. Again wasting $4.5M on a third-stringer is just plain stupid.
1- I don't really disagree with any of this man. I just take issue with not better utilizing Smith through development or as a tradable asset earlier on. I mean we held him for over two years without either investing in his development or looking to trade him once we determined that he wouldn't play. The longer he sat, The worse his trade value became. We did ourselves no favors in just sitting on an asset, whether contending or not. Perhaps as an expiring and with a light 2nd thrown in, We could look to get Craig back from the Pacers)? I just don't want him to become a wasted asset if at all possible!
2- You do make very solid points. And on the majority, I actually do agree with you and understand your perspective. With the draft, I agree on your points about culture ( I referred to it as situational factors or environment myself. But culture is a good term as well) playing a big part in a prospects odds for success. And I actually love what Jones has done for our culture. I also happened to be one of those that preferred to trade back in the draft ( per my posts) for additional assets at a cheaper salary scale, With interest on the likelihood of them outplaying their rookie contract. And I did like Smith myself along with McD and a few others. However, I didn't prefer him to at 10 in contrast to some of the other options we passed on later in the draft. To be clear, I'm not an advocate of tanking either for the reasons of apathy in culture of the teams. How it affects mindset and ambition. Moreover I'm passionate about trying to squeeze the most value possible out of whatever asset position we found ourselves in and hopefully profiting off of it either through a high end talent being developed at controlled cost. Or by building the value of said asset through development/ playing time ( if development is lacking) for a trade to upgrade the roster with an established player. I just wanted us to make the most out of a bad situation, as back then we very obviously weren't afforded other options as a free agency destination. So to me, Our most viable option was the draft. Which is why I was obviously so passionate about it. As many might notice, Now that we're contending, I haven't nearly ( if at all) posted very much about the draft. But I'm always looking for potential ways to explore upgrading our roster for sustainable contention post Paul era.
3- I can agree with you that I wouldn't expect or ask for him to play in front of any of Ayton, Crowder, Cam, or McGee. But aside from those options, Kaminsky ( outside of a few outlier performances is debatable). We obviously lost frontcourt bench depth with Saric going down. We didn't address it aside from McGee in free agency. We haven't been/ aren't really playing Hutchinson, Wainwright/ Nader ( whose kinda sucked lately) and even Kaminsky that much this season. The 10th e should've been more available minutes for Smith in that context I'd think. I mean we can't be doing ourselves many favors in overplaying our starters and McGee additional minutes this early on right?? Bench depth is only an asset IF you actually use it. We should've found more time for Smith to either develop him for Better bench depth, Or to promote him for potential teams for trade interests if we knew ( I'd hope we knew at least) that we didn't want to pay his salary with tax implications. Isn't two years a long time for a franchise to overlook or miss that detail?
I also get that Monty has trust issues with playing players. As evidenced by the majority of our bench not seeing playing time and becoming integrated early on with in game situations. Is that to our benefit as we get further into the season? Both he and D'antoni play short/ tight rotations. And of course favorites ( Shamet/ Crowder/ Saric). But in keeping those short/ tight rotations, aren't we also fatiguing our key rotation players down faster? At some point he needs to consider integrating our bench in more. Aside from just practice scenarios. I agree it's a crap situation for Smith, coach ( as you imply) doesn't trust him, And apparently he has flaws too ( not that there's really anyone on our team without flaws right??). But he hasn't gotten any playing time to show that he's getting past those flaws and developing. Again, How can a player establish on court value ( in game value) if he doesn't see the court or get playing time???
At some point, All n a vets ( even the really good ones) were rookies! How did they improve and become really good? Through actual playing time and development. But I get it. On a playoff contender, established, experienced veterans make more sense as they provide consistency without as many struggles and growth issues. I don't worry a out Smith getting better and making it somewhere. I worry about us wasting assets when we still don't genuinely have that many options for roster improvements ( aside from our core) due to cap constraints and a fiscally hamstrung owner. I just don't want us to waste any potential assets.
4- Just for clarity, back then ( not currently)who exactly were Bridges and Cam fighting with for actual minutes( per roster indication)? And again bearing in.mind that we weren't contending yet. So we were as you pointed out earlier still in the youth development stage pre Paul and Crowder? Correct me if I'm wrong, But upon looking, it seemed that apart from Bridges, The only other small forward listed on the roster was Oubre. And he pretty much manned the starting 4 spot with Saric at the backup 4/5 ( by committee with Cam Johnson). Beyond that, at the 4, Cam only had to contend with what exactly............. Tyriq Owens? So essentially, Bridges really had no competition at SF. A case could maybe be made for Johnson having to contend with Oubre and Saric. But post bubble, Daric became primarily designated as best positioned at backup 5. So was it really that much of a battle for minutes considering 3- backup 5 was shared by committee during that time?
Lastly, Again as previously said, IF that salary is absorbed for any of Ayton, Johnson, further roster depth, etc. Or in a trade, Then I'll take no issue with it. But that remains to be seen. And until it does, a proper determination cannot be justified. And to your point, as mentioned by us both. It's dependant upon how that 4.7 million salary ends up being utilized that will determine if it would've been a stupid investment or not. Our front office has talked a big game ever since Paul got here via trade. Talking about being a free agent destination as well as being players in free agency. With only resigning our own players and slightly overpaying for McGee ( which was solid), and then picking up vet minimum and two way cast offs ( which we don't even really play yet anyways) for our all in moves. So far our offseason has been lackluster at best. And it could be argued that our stumbling out the gate and barely .500 team record is a reflection of that. But I suppose only time will tell what we'll still look to do. We'll definitely reassess then.
Let's make it clear that the Suns cut their losses with Smith at 11 months ... not two years. Smith was drafted on November 19 of 2020 so has been with the team really about 11 months. He'll get paid (aka wins the lottery) this year as well. Whether he remains a member of the Suns is debatable but I don't feel bad for the kid. Maybe he will get a chance someplace else. Maybe the Suns sign him to a vet min contract next year ala Frank Kaminsky who got dropped by the Suns and then Dubs.
I find it funny that people get upset over some non-contributing player such as Smith or draft picks being traded away that don't even have a face attached to them. Players like Nash and Marion should have retired as Suns ... sticking around to help carry the winning culture onto the next generation of purple and orange players. I've got no emotional attachment to Smith. Taking the human element out of it and treating him like an asset as you suggest ... he's like buying a lottery ticket at the store and the numbers didn't come up. That piece of paper simply gets discarded.
As far Cam goes in his rookie season, Oubre, Bridges, Owens, Saric, and Diallo all spent time playing PF while Ayton, Baynes, and Kaminsky played C. He did have to beat out some players for his minutes.
Bridges had to earn minutes against Ariza, Jackson, and Warren. Then Oubre got added and Ariza moved. There was a lot of grumbling about picking Bridges when we already had a glut of wings. He definitely had to earn minutes his rookie year.
Sam Merrill. 
and as for my perspective on 2nds being valuable, I'd argue that IF you can reasonably identify talent, Then they absolutely are. Xavier Tillman, Saben Lee, Tre Jones, Jordan Nwora, Kenyon Martin Jr. and my favorite 
