Why isn't Robert Horry in the HoF?

[dhsilv2]

He's a career role player who happened to play for some great teams (Lakers and Spurs), won a bunch of rings, and hit a few big playoff shots.

Same reason why Derek Fisher and Steve Kerr won't make the HOF.

How do you leave off the Rockets? That 2 year playoff run he had a 16.4 PER, .147 WS/48, and an impressive 4.8 BPM with 2.8 total VORP (which is kinda jaw dropping). For all of hakeem's defensive value, he averaged 1.5 steals and 1 block per game. Scoring 12.4 with 1.2 turnovers and grabbed 6.6 boards a game despite Hakeem and Thorp being on that team. Throw in 39.2% 3 point shooting on 4.4 attempts a game to provide critical spacing for Dream. For the Rockets Horry was more critical and important on those two runs than anything he did on the lakers or spurs.

[Texas Chuck]

I personally do not think that non-superstars should be in the Hall of Fame.

But there are already tons of examples of guys that got into the Hall of Fame that were well below that level. The precedent has been set that guys like Robert Horry should make it if we want to continue the same HoF criteria that has been used in the past.

I'm actually not at all opposed to Horry getting into the basketball HoF as it currently is. If the NBA ever decided to have their own Hall and make it as exclusive as say the baseball Hall, then he doesn't belong.

But one thing that makes me view Horry quite differently from say Steve Kerr is just how important the coaches on those championship teams viewed him.

On the two Houston titles, he played 5 more mpg in the playoffs avg 34 and 38 minutes as a full-time starter. He's not remotely just along for the ride here. Both years he was their 3rd best player in the playoffs. Behind Dream both years obviously and behind Thorpe and then Drexler.


Then go to LA, not much changed for him in 00 or 01 but again his minutes went up in the playoffs in both seasons. But in 02 he goes from a guy who plays about half the game mostly off the bench in the RS, to a guy playing 37 mpg mostly as a starter.

Then SA in 05. Plays 18 mpg in the RS. But 27 mpg in the playoffs. And even in 07 where for the first time Horry might could be called insignificant, his minutes and role increase come playoff time.

The story of Horry isn't the box score production. It's not really even the 7 rings. Or the Big Shots. The story is about why championship level teams sought this guy out. And why they trusted him so much come playoff time. He's the PF version of Danny Green. Danny Green wows nobody. His game is far more anonymous than Horry's. But there is a reason the Raps wanted him in the Kawhi deal. Why the Lakers wanted him. Why Philly wanted him. Because coaches trust these guys to fill a very specific role that holds real value around stars.

Robert Horry is a more important part of the NBA and basketball than a guy like Vince Carter who everyone will expect to be in the Hall. He just is.

[KrAzY3]

Because isn't the role player hall of fame? Now, is it fair that someone like Draymond Green or some other glorified role players might have a chance and he won't? Yeah...but still he despite being all all time great role player that's what he was.

[Steven1562]

Because he's a role player lucky enough to be on some good teams and hit big shots? Amar'e Stoudemire probably has a better case to make it into the HOF.

[dhsilv2]

He's the PF version of Danny Green. Danny Green wows nobody. His game is far more anonymous than Horry's. But there is a reason the Raps wanted him in the Kawhi deal. Why the Lakers wanted him. Why Philly wanted him. Because coaches trust these guys to fill a very specific role that holds real value around stars.

Robert Horry is a more important part of the NBA and basketball than a guy like Vince Carter who everyone will expect to be in the Hall. He just is.

I'd add the important note here that Horry's role was FAR bigger than Greens. Horry was given the option to drive, even on the spurs when he was no longer a driver. he was given some, all be it minimal touches in the post on the rockets. He was also a guy who'd fill holes defensively in ways that Green doesn't really do.

Horry is a hard comp because he could do so much. He's a bit to me the evolution of Ho Grant, another criminally under valued guy.

[LAL1947]

Why isn't Robert Horry in the HoF?

Cos he's the greatest passenger of all time. Or the 2nd greatest after Derek Fisher.

So to answer the poll about whether he should be in the HOF, my answer is a no. The same goes for Fisher too.

[ellobo]

Horry was a role player who happened to be in the right place at the right time a lot. Obviously he was clutch, but not much else really.

Should be noted his career playoff BPM was 3.7 which is actually pretty darn star level. He's 22nd all time in playoff VORP, a metric that just playing a lot of games and being ok won't move the needle on. He was a high impact starter in the playoffs and his game improved noticeably in the playoffs consistently over his career, something that is very rare.

I still wouldn't put him in the hall, but he was a LOT more than just Clutch.

Playoff career VORP is cumulative. Horry is 4th in career playoff games played, but 22nd in VORP. BBall-Ref VORP also only goes back to 1973-74.

[dhsilv2]

Horry was a role player who happened to be in the right place at the right time a lot. Obviously he was clutch, but not much else really.

Should be noted his career playoff BPM was 3.7 which is actually pretty darn star level. He's 22nd all time in playoff VORP, a metric that just playing a lot of games and being ok won't move the needle on. He was a high impact starter in the playoffs and his game improved noticeably in the playoffs consistently over his career, something that is very rare.

I still wouldn't put him in the hall, but he was a LOT more than just Clutch.

Playoff career VORP is cumulative. Horry is 4th in career playoff games played, but 22nd in VORP. BBall-Ref VORP also only goes back to 1973-74.

Yes I know all of this. I even addressed why it was impressive even with the high game count. There were also less games if you go back further, and Horry built his resume with a lot of 5 game first rounds. Doesn't change how high he is on that list.

Here are the guys ahead of him.

1. LeBron James 33.89
2. Michael Jordan* 24.74
3. Tim Duncan* 18.56
4. Magic Johnson* 18.34
5. Kobe Bryant* 16.15
6. Larry Bird* 15.35
7. Shaquille O'Neal* 15.32
8. Scottie Pippen* 14.18
9. Kevin Durant 14.09
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 12.99
11. John Stockton* 12.93
12. Hakeem Olajuwon* 12.87
13. Dwyane Wade 12.30
14. Kawhi Leonard 12.19
15. Karl Malone* 12.07
16. Dirk Nowitzki 11.79
17. Chris Paul 10.90
18. James Harden 10.80
19. Clyde Drexler* 10.65
20. Manu Ginóbili 10.44
21. Charles Barkley* 10.15

and the guys right behind him.

23. Jason Kidd* 9.71
24. Julius Erving* 9.63
25. Stephen Curry 9.54
26. Kevin Garnett* 9.45
27. Reggie Miller* 9.42
28. David Robinson* 8.67
29. Isiah Thomas* 8.47
30. Chauncey Billups 8.45
31. Paul Pierce* 8.14
32. Ray Allen* 7.91
33. Kevin McHale* 7.75

The only guy anyone's even a LITTLE debated with the hall is Billups. You'd have to go down to 37th to Horace Grant to find someone for sure not going to the hall and he had one hell of a career himself.

[Nate505]

Because the Basketball Hall of Fame wants to try to hold on to that last shred of dignity they have (and it's the smallest of shreds) before they became a complete and total absolute joke by letting guys like Robert Horry in.

[Texas Chuck]

He's the PF version of Danny Green. Danny Green wows nobody. His game is far more anonymous than Horry's. But there is a reason the Raps wanted him in the Kawhi deal. Why the Lakers wanted him. Why Philly wanted him. Because coaches trust these guys to fill a very specific role that holds real value around stars.

Robert Horry is a more important part of the NBA and basketball than a guy like Vince Carter who everyone will expect to be in the Hall. He just is.

I'd add the important note here that Horry's role was FAR bigger than Greens. Horry was given the option to drive, even on the spurs when he was no longer a driver. he was given some, all be it minimal touches in the post on the rockets. He was also a guy who'd fill holes defensively in ways that Green doesn't really do.

Horry is a hard comp because he could do so much. He's a bit to me the evolution of Ho Grant, another criminally under valued guy.

I wasn't trying to compare them as players(though it appears I think more highly of Green than you) but simply to point out that many posters talk about these guys as just lucky to be on good teams guys. And the point I want to make is the opposite. These guys had skills that made good teams target them to play key roles for them.

It's not luck that Horry was a Laker or a Spur. Or that Green was a Raptor, Laker, Sixer. These contending teams said these specific guys could really help us. And as I illustrated above, Horry's minutes went up the more important the games got. Coaches wanted him in these games.

I actually hate when his name comes up because this was a good player regardless of what those who only read box score totals think, but we just get disparaging and disrespectful comments from the peanut gallery.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

KC Jones being in the HOF is terrible. Don’t compound the problem by also putting a guy like Horry in. And I say this as a Lakers fan for nearly 3 decades who loves Horry for his role on those early 2000 championship teams.

Basically what happened with bucks jersey retirements. 9 for a team up until last year won 1 championship.

[theforumblue]

dude was load managing long before anyone else. just cruised right on through the RS. almost made him look like an average player, maybe even a bad one. but i guess you do that when you realize you gotta go to the playoffs every year.

very smart player too. i still remember a game where phil jackson yelled at him after calling time out about a missed rotation or something, and horry yelled right back pointing out what he had done, and phil shut right up and acknowledged his mistake. horry had that kind of confidence.

i'm biased, so i would not mind at all if horry got in the hall. he went little beyond just "role player" hitting some shots. but it's not some travesty that he won't.

[dhsilv2]

He's the PF version of Danny Green. Danny Green wows nobody. His game is far more anonymous than Horry's. But there is a reason the Raps wanted him in the Kawhi deal. Why the Lakers wanted him. Why Philly wanted him. Because coaches trust these guys to fill a very specific role that holds real value around stars.

Robert Horry is a more important part of the NBA and basketball than a guy like Vince Carter who everyone will expect to be in the Hall. He just is.

I'd add the important note here that Horry's role was FAR bigger than Greens. Horry was given the option to drive, even on the spurs when he was no longer a driver. he was given some, all be it minimal touches in the post on the rockets. He was also a guy who'd fill holes defensively in ways that Green doesn't really do.

Horry is a hard comp because he could do so much. He's a bit to me the evolution of Ho Grant, another criminally under valued guy.

I wasn't trying to compare them as players(though it appears I think more highly of Green than you) but simply to point out that many posters talk about these guys as just lucky to be on good teams guys. And the point I want to make is the opposite. These guys had skills that made good teams target them to play key roles for them.

It's not luck that Horry was a Laker or a Spur. Or that Green was a Raptor, Laker, Sixer. These contending teams said these specific guys could really help us. And as I illustrated above, Horry's minutes went up the more important the games got. Coaches wanted him in these games.

I actually hate when his name comes up because this was a good player regardless of what those who only read box score totals think, but we just get disparaging and disrespectful comments from the peanut gallery.

Horry's box score metrics are actually rather good given you don't just look at PPG (which aren't bad either). I'm pretty dang high on Green because he is so elite at what he does. Horry I think gets pigeonholed into a more limited role than what he was. He could have been a near 20 a game scorer on the right teams. I'm not sure that would have been smart...but he had complete enough game for that. Green is even as a guard a pretty poor ball handler and so so passer. I think Horry relative to his role was better and more complete in those types of areas was really my point.

I tried to focus on just that point as I fully agree otherwise with the point that these guys are on title teams because they're the pieces that push title contender to champions. But Horry's role imo was more significant for most of his titles.

[donato]

I liked Horry, but what a ridiculous premise. I seriously question if the people who voted yes ever watched him play or know anything about basketball.

[rzzzzz]

So what’s the argument against clutch shots? Hard to think of a guy who managed to be at the right place at the right time and nail it down as much as he did. Yeah, there’s luck involved. Or some rare genius of putting himself in position to rise to the occasion. I got no beef against some fairly good players who were fortunate enough to dragged into the HOF playing next to all time greats. So why wouldn’t I want this memorable character his little 15 minutes of fame?

(Kind of like giving somebody a Best Supporting Actor Oscar for a noteworthy bit in the movies.)

[Yoshun]

I loved Horry. I saw most of his big shots. He's not a HOF.

[scrabbarista]

IIRC, Horry was third on six title teams in playoff win shares.

Third.

He was not a Jim Loscutoff, Derek Fisher, Steve Kerr, Mario Elie, or even a K.C. Jones. He was not a "passenger." Get that straight first.

I would absolutely put him in the Hall, but it all depends on what criteria you value. In other words, the conversation has nothing to do with Horry and everything to do with the Hall.

[jehosafats]

He's the PF version of Danny Green. Danny Green wows nobody. His game is far more anonymous than Horry's. But there is a reason the Raps wanted him in the Kawhi deal. Why the Lakers wanted him. Why Philly wanted him. Because coaches trust these guys to fill a very specific role that holds real value around stars.

Robert Horry is a more important part of the NBA and basketball than a guy like Vince Carter who everyone will expect to be in the Hall. He just is.

I'd add the important note here that Horry's role was FAR bigger than Greens. Horry was given the option to drive, even on the spurs when he was no longer a driver. he was given some, all be it minimal touches in the post on the rockets. He was also a guy who'd fill holes defensively in ways that Green doesn't really do.

Horry is a hard comp because he could do so much. He's a bit to me the evolution of Ho Grant, another criminally under valued guy.

I wasn't trying to compare them as players(though it appears I think more highly of Green than you) but simply to point out that many posters talk about these guys as just lucky to be on good teams guys. And the point I want to make is the opposite. These guys had skills that made good teams target them to play key roles for them.

It's not luck that Horry was a Laker or a Spur. Or that Green was a Raptor, Laker, Sixer. These contending teams said these specific guys could really help us. And as I illustrated above, Horry's minutes went up the more important the games got. Coaches wanted him in these games.

I actually hate when his name comes up because this was a good player regardless of what those who only read box score totals think, but we just get disparaging and disrespectful comments from the peanut gallery.

I generally agree, players like Horry and Green are hardly examples of dumb luck, or going with the tides. I happen to believe Horry is a HoF player, but that's only because it worked. By the same token, teams these days target a player like Crowder when they're serious about a championship run. Even if it does work, I doubt he's headed for the HoF.

[Texas Chuck]

By the same token, teams these days target a player like Crowder when they're serious about a championship run. Even if it does work, I doubt he's headed for the HoF.

Oh its fair to say he shouldn't be in the Hall. I'm not pushing him for his inclusion. I'm simply saying I'd not be troubled by it considering what this Hall represents which is different from what many want it to represent. And I'd rather have players like this with winning, but not star, skills over guys with "star" skills who really weren't stars but who put up a ton of counting stats and thus will get it. Those players are largely fool's gold yet because they have a bunch of points people generally are fine with a Hall inclusion.

[druggas]

I liked Horry, but what a ridiculous premise. I seriously question if the people who voted yes ever watched him play or know anything about basketball.

I've done both. He absolutely deserves the HOF, not just because he has hit the biggest shot or because he has 7 rings, but if you ever watched him play, you would know that he does so many things that don't show up in the box score. And it's no coincidence that his teams won championships. But for no other reason, he threw a towel in Ainge's face while on the Suns.