76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[Nuntius]

the least they could ask for is to know if Simmons is legitimately seeing a real therapist.

He is seeing a real therapist, though. That's a given. He has been seeing an NBPA mental health professional since this summer. I don't think that anyone can dispute whether that therapist is real or not.

What the Sixers are asking here is for Simmons to give them a report about what that therapist says. They are asking for his diagnosis and, to me, it's not clear whether they have the right to do it or not.

The NBPA works for the players. They are not neutral, the therapist must be an independent third party, not from NBPA, Sixers, or Ben Simmons.

Says who? Is it written anywhere in the CBA that the therapist must be an independent third party?

Again, we have seen how the Sixers have acted towards independent third parties in the past. Markelle Fultz went this route and the third party's findings were outright dismissed. People started saying that Fultz bought this diagnosis and all that crap. Why would Simmons go the same route?

[wegotthabeet]

Philly has all season to trade him absolutely no reason to do it now.

Dec 15th players who signed contracts this offseason are eligible for trade.

Feb 10th is the trade deadline.

You can expect Ben to be traded sometime between Dec 15th and Feb 10th.

Do they have to trade him though? I get that more options present themselves after Dec 15th, but what is being offered then?

Seems like it's a matter of principle and if so then let him sit out for four years, but they'll still have to pay him. Philadelphia seems to be doing just fine without him. He can try to sign with another team in 4 years when he's 29 and hasn't played pro ball in nearly half a decade. Use his salary as a tax write off and say it's a charitable donation to mental health awareness.

[bbalnation]

If Simmons is mentally disabled then the Sixers can probably go to the insurance company to file a claim. They still need some written documentation to show. No insurance company is going to pay up millions just because.

You're bringing in false info with a pretense of "probably".

You dont need the employers involvement for an insurance company disability claim. The NBA world is also likely different so idk why you bring it up.

Lol people need to understand that what happens in the NBA has impact on what happens in the daily workplace. I understand people are emotional about Ben for a lot of reasons, but there's a lot of reckless advocacy happening right now in this thread, that asks for bosses to have MORE visibility, including in the sanctity of a therapist session.

I know its an online realgm forum, but think twice here.

[LAL1947]

Well again I think you are missing part of the section, just a different part, here it is again since it got cut off (I added the letters and bolded the part that applies):

Why would the rest of the sentence only apply to (B) but not (A)? What is the point of (A) being there if the rest of the sentence doesn't apply?

If he sees a psychiatrist he clearly has to provide them with that information, at least that's how I read it.

It seems pretty obvious to me that he's withholding the information because this is part of his "plan" to get traded (i.e., be difficult) rather than any distrust of the Sixers' doctors, since again he's had many interactions with them including major surgeries. Like when he got knee surgery after the 2020 season I know for a fact that it was with a doctor in the Philly area with connections with the team. Heck one of the few times he's talked to the team it was to get the trainers to look at this back.

Because a psychiatrist provides mental health related medical services which is already included in B. That's why I read it as that being something that is exempt from disclosure. I could definitely be wrong here, I'm not saying that I'm reading this right. But the fact that it can be read that way does mean that it isn't written clearly enough. So, given this current situation that part of the CBA will have to be revisited and written more clearly when the next negotiations take place.

As for the last paragraph, everyone can have their own opinion on the situation. All I know is that if Simmons does indeed have a mental health issue then the approach that the Sixers have is 100% the wrong one. And they had the same slimy approach with Markelle Fultz as well. I'm not giving them any benefit of the doubt personally. They aren't the good guys here, imo.

If they're providing the same thing as (B) what's the point of explicitly calling them out as a separate thing in (A)? (B) is to cover other "professionals", i.e., *not* "physicians (including a psychiatrist)". Like chiropractors and physical therapists as they listed. Doctors such as psychiatrists are included in (A). In fact they explicitly include psychiatrists in (A) to avoid exactly the confusion that you are having.

If there was any question about whether what the Sixers were doing is wrong the Players Association would be all up in arms over this, but notice you don't hear a peep from them, or Rich Paul for that matter.

You have it right IMO. Psychiatrists are included in (A) under the term "physicians" because they are medical doctors who have obtained a medical degree. Whereas chiropractors and physical therapists don't get medical degrees and aren't considered physicians or medical doctors, which is most likely why they're listed separately under (B). Hope I'm not upsetting any chiropractors or physical therapists by saying that.

Either way, what that paragraph means is that a player who consults with or is treated by anyone other than a team physician for anything, has to provide the team with any information it may request if the team's physician believes it may impact his ability to play.

[naabzor]

This guy should not be allowed to play ever in the nba if I am the league. Terrible mistake, it is mind-boggling to me that this is even a thing. Make a statement and banish this arrogant man from the game this is so disrespectful.

[Dez]

This guy should not be allowed to play ever in the nba if I am the league. Terrible mistake, it is mind-boggling to me that this is even a thing. Make a statement and banish this arrogant man from the game this is so disrespectful.

Yes because this is a good idea.

[Asianiac_24]

He is seeing a real therapist, though. That's a given. He has been seeing an NBPA mental health professional since this summer. I don't think that anyone can dispute whether that therapist is real or not.

What the Sixers are asking here is for Simmons to give them a report about what that therapist says. They are asking for his diagnosis and, to me, it's not clear whether they have the right to do it or not.

The NBPA works for the players. They are not neutral, the therapist must be an independent third party, not from NBPA, Sixers, or Ben Simmons.

Says who? Is it written anywhere in the CBA that the therapist must be an independent third party?

Again, we have seen how the Sixers have acted towards independent third parties in the past. Markelle Fultz went this route and the third party's findings were outright dismissed. People started saying that Fultz bought this diagnosis and all that crap. Why would Simmons go the same route?

If Ben Simmons went to a therapist from the Sixers organization, and the therapist says Simmons is fit to play, how would the NBPA or SImmons react? Would the results from the therapist be scrutinized due to the nature of who's paying him/her?

It's the same logic here. I have a feeling that if Simmons is being forced to diagnose with a therapist from the Sixers organization, you'd be crying foul. But somehow the NBPA therapist is fine, even though it literally stands for the PLAYERS ASSOCIATION.

[bbalnation]

Because a psychiatrist provides mental health related medical services which is already included in B. That's why I read it as that being something that is exempt from disclosure. I could definitely be wrong here, I'm not saying that I'm reading this right. But the fact that it can be read that way does mean that it isn't written clearly enough. So, given this current situation that part of the CBA will have to be revisited and written more clearly when the next negotiations take place.

As for the last paragraph, everyone can have their own opinion on the situation. All I know is that if Simmons does indeed have a mental health issue then the approach that the Sixers have is 100% the wrong one. And they had the same slimy approach with Markelle Fultz as well. I'm not giving them any benefit of the doubt personally. They aren't the good guys here, imo.

If they're providing the same thing as (B) what's the point of explicitly calling them out as a separate thing in (A)? (B) is to cover other "professionals", i.e., *not* "physicians (including a psychiatrist)". Like chiropractors and physical therapists as they listed. Doctors such as psychiatrists are included in (A). In fact they explicitly include psychiatrists in (A) to avoid exactly the confusion that you are having.

If there was any question about whether what the Sixers were doing is wrong the Players Association would be all up in arms over this, but notice you don't hear a peep from them, or Rich Paul for that matter.

And as I said before, you could definitely be right in your reading and I could be wrong on it. We'll see how the NBPA will react to this matter, especially if the Sixers try to force Simmons to stop seeing the NBPA therapists that he's been seeing.

I dont think hes right, after all his employer advocacy work. I havent been following along, but I'll entertain this for a second.

A Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist dont fit what A or B speak of. These are the therapists that are often handling "talk therapy". I imagine it's who Ben is seeing. Psychiatrists are generally responsible for that initial diagnosis, prescribing meds, and then in some cases, talk therapy as well.

Im annoyed at you (Sixerscan) because you brought this CBA contract/quote to this thread with a couple purposes in mind and its clear you don't actually know what you're speaking about to get those selfish needs met. It was reckless.

So, are you good now Sixerscan?

[shangrila]

As they should. When these teams pay a player, it's because the player is supposed to provide their services. What services is Ben Simmons providing?

That's like signing a deal with a contractor to build you a garage. He doesn't show up, then finally shows up one day and says he's not mentally ready to build your garage, but expects to be paid in full anyway? I don't think so. Lol

The fact you compared contracting work to a salaried position shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

That's a bunch of bull and you know it. Players get paid to provide services. What services is he providing ?

Right at this very second? I have no idea. Are they still selling merch featuring his name and likeness? Are they still using him in advertising materials? These players generate revenue for a team beyond what they do on the court.

As for your example, it's a bunch of bull and you know it. If the same guy couldn't build my garage because he'd been involved in a freak accident and lost both his hands...guess what? He still wouldn't be getting paid. Same as if he had a death in the family, or was suffering a mental health issue like you said, or his freaking car broke down. None of that matters because he's a contractor.

It is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT to being in a salary position. And it's the kind of asinine herp derp "example" I keep seeing that deserves to be called out.

This situation isn't anywhere near as black and white as you seem eager to paint it is. Hence, you don't know what you're talking about.

[axeman23]

Ben for Westbrook? Ben would help the Laker's tremendously, but I'm not sure if Westbrook will fit in with Phili.

why on earth would Philly want Westy? do they not have eyes?

Well, Westy's never been accused of being "scared to shoot", so there's that...

[shangrila]

As they should. When these teams pay a player, it's because the player is supposed to provide their services. What services is Ben Simmons providing?

That's like signing a deal with a contractor to build you a garage. He doesn't show up, then finally shows up one day and says he's not mentally ready to build your garage, but expects to be paid in full anyway? I don't think so. Lol

The fact you compared contracting work to a salaried position shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

I mean yes the contracts between the two are pretty different, but his base point still stands. Ben Simmons signed a contract, that contract was for his services to play basketball for Philly. Simmons shouldn't expect to still get paid even when he decides he is no longer to play basketball for Philly.

The comparison is a pretty straight forward comparison on what is basics of a contract. Two sides agree for an exchange of goods for services. Dont expect the goods of the contract if the services arent done. It would be the same if you flipped it around. We wouldnt expect Simmons to play basketball for Philly, if Philly was refusing to pay him even if he was playing.

If you, or the other guy, want to argue he shouldn't be paid, fine. But holding up contracting work as a comparison is moronic. By your logic, salaried employees shouldn't get sick leave. They aren't providing the service they are contracted to do, so why should they be paid? Holiday pay? Forget that. How dare you enjoy yourself on company dime?!

They're just too different to hold one as a standard against the other. Hence why I claimed that guy, and now you, don't know what you're talking about.

Use a different example. This is not the hill to die on.

[Nuntius]

The NBPA works for the players. They are not neutral, the therapist must be an independent third party, not from NBPA, Sixers, or Ben Simmons.

Says who? Is it written anywhere in the CBA that the therapist must be an independent third party?

Again, we have seen how the Sixers have acted towards independent third parties in the past. Markelle Fultz went this route and the third party's findings were outright dismissed. People started saying that Fultz bought this diagnosis and all that crap. Why would Simmons go the same route?

If Ben Simmons went to a therapist from the Sixers organization, and the therapist says Simmons is fit to play, how would the NBPA or SImmons react? Would the results from the therapist be scrutinized due to the nature of who's paying him/her?

It's the same logic here. I have a feeling that if Simmons is being forced to diagnose with a therapist from the Sixers organization, you'd be crying foul. But somehow the NBPA therapist is fine, even though it literally stands for the PLAYERS ASSOCIATION.

I will again remind you the Markelle Fultz situation. Fultz went to a third party doctor and that doctor said that he isn't fit to play. The Sixers' doctors, though, cleared him to play, they dismissed the independent doctor's findings and then the organization tried to portray Fultz as a nutcase. But then Fultz was traded to the Magic and Orlando's medical team confirmed that Fultz was not fit to play. So, Fultz missed the rest of that season and returned at the start of the next one. The Sixers' medical team was proven to be wrong in that case. They were proven to have declared a player as "ready to play" even though he wasn't.

Why should anyone trust them now? They have already proved that they will put the team's interest over the player's wellbeing. So, yeah, I would definitely not trust Philly's medical teams. No one should after all the **** they've pulled in the last 5 years.

On the other hand, I have not seen this kind of duplicitous behavior by anyone affiliated with the NBPA. So, I have no real reason not to trust them. I get the conflict of interest point that was raised by MrBigShot but as I said to him, I do not agree with it. I don't think that Simmons has any other recourse here. A third party investigator will be outright dismissed (just like it happened to Fultz) and that's that.

[LAL1947]

The wording is definitely awkward, but by definition a psychiatrist provides mental health care, so mental health related medical services is not exempt. My interpretation of the "professionals providing non-mental health related medical services" is that its there to cover stuff like acupuncture or physical therapy. Now, a therapist isn't a physician but is providing mental health care so there is a bit of a grey area, but the way the excerpt reads It seems to me that the Sixers are well within their rights to request for Ben to substantiate his health.

I think the question to be answered is how much information has to be shared, right? Like if Simmons's psychiatrist writes the team a letter stating I am treating Ben for X or X and Y or X, Y, and Z is that sufficient? Because surely nothing covered in a therapy session should ever be made available to a team--I can't imagine the players having ever agreed to that.

And if that is what is required, the notification from a doctor and Simmons isn't providing it, then the fine seems reasonable and appropriate. And if that continues to be the case, it does lead more credence to those doubting the veracity if he can't get a doctor to sign off on a clinical diagnosis.

However if the requirements are more invasive, I for one, totally understand why Simmons is loathe to cooperate and doesn't fully trust them.

Which is why absent information we should all acknowledge what we don't know. And not reach the conclusion we want to reach for other reasons.

I'm with you there, we shouldn't reach conclusions absent information. I'm under the impression that he's "faking it" because no reason has been given at all... but I shouldn't be so quick to assume.

Anyway, I agree that the question to be asked is how much information has to be shared... and if the requirements are too invasive, then he doesn't need to give them everything they're asking for... but he (or his therapist) should provide the team with a reasonable summary of why he can't play, limiting the information to what he wants them to know... and in doing so, he'll also have a leg to stand on in any arbitration proceedings.

[Jazz9]

He's made the situation so much bigger than it should have been and now he's feeling trapped.
Had he reported back to camp and play as usual people would have moved on already.

[SpreeChokeJob]

If Simmons is mentally disabled then the Sixers can probably go to the insurance company to file a claim. They still need some written documentation to show. No insurance company is going to pay up millions just because.

You're bringing in false info with a pretense of "probably".

You dont need the employers involvement for an insurance company disability claim. The NBA world is also likely different so idk why you bring it up.

Lol people need to understand that what happens in the NBA has impact on what happens in the daily workplace. I understand people are emotional about Ben for a lot of reasons, but there's a lot of reckless advocacy happening right now in this thread, that asks for bosses to have MORE visibility, including in the sanctity of a therapist session.

I know its an online realgm forum, but think twice here.

Considering the teams pay the players salaries, they will have to buy insurance to cover when the player is unable to play. There’s nothing false about that.

In any case if he is out a significant amount of time he has to show documentation to get paid. It’s just common sense or otherwise he could be faking mental illness to be paid which would be a very low thing to do for not getting his way.

If he does show he has mental illness from a licensed professional then he should get paid and get some rest.

[axeman23]

Having to meet with team physician is harming Simmons' mental health.

Don't see Sixers ever winning this one in arbitration if challenged. They cannot prove that Simmons is not suffering from mental health issues.

Of course, I do think Simmons / Rich Paul is faking this whole mental health episode.

Exactly why I think, like you, that this is BS and totally a game by Simmons/Paul. They can literally claim ANY intervention or oversight of Ben's therapy is detrimental to his mental health and there's **** all the team or NBA can do about it.

I got slammed in the previous thread for suggesting the team has every right to make sure he's actually going to a legit therapist for the mental issues he's claiming and not some therapist who's just there to collect and easy paycheck while the two sit in a room for an hour on their phones or something like that.

If he's claiming mental health problems and he's actively working on that with a professional who's also trying to improve said mental health issue, then the team has every right to have some level of confirmation that what is claimed to be happening is actually taking place if the player wants to continue to collect his paycheck while undergoing treatment.

Otherwise it's not better than someone defrauding an employer with fake / overly-extended workmans comp. Employers regularly hire PI's to investigate employees when recovery from injury is taking an excessive amount of time. The Sixers deserve some level of confirmation that Ben is actively trying to improve his mental health.

Sixers ABSOLUTELY have the right to be kept up to date with how things are progressing. ZERO argument there. Although its funny that if its a psychiatrist of Ben's choosing, there's apparently a significant risk of the psychiatrist "just being there for the pay cheque", but we should have ZERO doubts about the Philly staff's motives, right?

[Michael Jackson]

Does anyone else think that Ben sitting is almost giving the rest of the team some fire to play better? I mean no one in that team likely is in Ben’s side and him sitting and pulling the shenanigans might be inspiring the rest of the team to show up. Maybe keeping him right now psychologically is better for the team than them conceding to his “wishes”. Honestly seems like Philly is less effected by Ben sitting out than the media is.

[axeman23]

This is appropriate and the right move. Very predictable on both sides. Ben tried to get paid using an excuse that is hard to prove. Philly called his bluff.

Until Ben does something to try and prove he's mentally ill... which is an extreme but for $360K every other day someone can/will go to extreme measures.

Come to practice with a jar of vaseline and a spoon...

[Sixerscan]

If they're providing the same thing as (B) what's the point of explicitly calling them out as a separate thing in (A)? (B) is to cover other "professionals", i.e., *not* "physicians (including a psychiatrist)". Like chiropractors and physical therapists as they listed. Doctors such as psychiatrists are included in (A). In fact they explicitly include psychiatrists in (A) to avoid exactly the confusion that you are having.

If there was any question about whether what the Sixers were doing is wrong the Players Association would be all up in arms over this, but notice you don't hear a peep from them, or Rich Paul for that matter.

And as I said before, you could definitely be right in your reading and I could be wrong on it. We'll see how the NBPA will react to this matter, especially if the Sixers try to force Simmons to stop seeing the NBPA therapists that he's been seeing.

I dont think hes right, after all his employer advocacy work. I havent been following along, but I'll entertain this for a second.

A Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist dont fit what A or B speak of. These are the therapists that are often handling "talk therapy". I imagine it's who Ben is seeing. Psychiatrists are generally responsible for that initial diagnosis, prescribing meds, and then in some cases, talk therapy as well.

Im annoyed at you (Sixerscan) because you brought this CBA contract/quote to this thread with a couple purposes in mind and its clear you don't actually know what you're speaking about to get those selfish needs met. It was reckless.

So, are you good now Sixerscan?

bbalnation, check again, I didn't bring the CBA quote into the thread. Looks like a fella by the name of MrBigShot did. I just responded to someone that was obviously misreading it and explained it to them.

You have no idea what information Simmons is and is not providing. According to Woj, he's refused to provide "basic details" which could very easily include a basic diagnosis or other information provided by his psychiatrist. Which, by the way, is pretty important considering a provision under the CBA that he could theoretically claim he is entitled payment without getting on the court is a mental disability, which is diagnosed by a psychiatrist. I don't think the Sixers want access to his dream diary or anything, they just want the information needed to prove he's entitled payment.

Again, if Simmons has provided every thing he needs to provide, let's see the players association go to bat for him. Heck let's see Rich Paul say something.

[Waider]

Something that is baffling to me in this situation is how soft Ben Simmons really is when his father is Dave Simmons. As an Australian who has followed the NBL from the late 80's it is beyond comprehension how such a hard nosed competitor who was a dirty work guy on Championship Teams has spawned a Soft Serve Ice Cream.