76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[Infinite Llamas]

I don't understand why they want him to play so bad. To improve his trade stock? Or do they think he'll have a change of heart and decide to stay? What if it does the opposite and he performs worse. Why take the risk? Team is playing well, why mess with the chemistry? It seems like a spiteful tactic to make Simmons do something he doesn't want to do. They're cutting off the nose to spite the face.

Should have just kept him away from the team until they could trade him, or should have traded him at the draft or during the summer.

Regardless of what Doc and co. said after Game 7, the Sixers have to look like they are committed to Simmons and making this work. In their heart of hearts, they know he won’t play there again, but they have to do this to avoid any repercussions that would come their way if they didn’t make every effort possible to salvage this relationship. They’re striving to make Simmons look like the petty one and the unreasonable one here and it’s working.

My take on it is that Simmons signed the deal and if he refuses to meet with the doctors of the team and provide services, than fines are more than reasonable. This situation is 100% an example of player entitlement gone horribly wrong and if the 76ers cave to him, it sets a horrible precedent. They kind of have to keep their cards on the table and continue to win without Simmons to send this message.

[bbalnation]

And as I said before, you could definitely be right in your reading and I could be wrong on it. We'll see how the NBPA will react to this matter, especially if the Sixers try to force Simmons to stop seeing the NBPA therapists that he's been seeing.

I dont think hes right, after all his employer advocacy work. I havent been following along, but I'll entertain this for a second.

A Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist dont fit what A or B speak of. These are the therapists that are often handling "talk therapy". I imagine it's who Ben is seeing. Psychiatrists are generally responsible for that initial diagnosis, prescribing meds, and then in some cases, talk therapy as well.

Im annoyed at you (Sixerscan) because you brought this CBA contract/quote to this thread with a couple purposes in mind and its clear you don't actually know what you're speaking about to get those selfish needs met. It was reckless.

So, are you good now Sixerscan?

bbalnation, check again, I didn't bring the CBA quote into the thread. Looks like a fella by the name of MrBigShot did. I just responded to someone that was obviously misreading it and explained it to them.

You have no idea what information Simmons is and is not providing. According to Woj, he's refused to provide "basic details" which could very easily include a basic diagnosis or other information provided by his psychiatrist. Which, by the way, is pretty important considering a provision under the CBA that he could theoretically claim he is entitled payment without getting on the court is a mental disability, which is diagnosed by a psychiatrist. I don't think the Sixers want access to his dream diary or anything, they just want the information needed to prove he's entitled payment.

Again, if Simmons has provided every thing he needs to provide, let's see the players association go to bat for him. Heck let's see Rich Paul say something.

Hit you back with an accidental false fwiw of my own

[SpreeChokeJob]

I think he doesn’t want to turn in any information because then it goes from a problem child to a criminal act if he is falsifying his diagnosis for pay.

It’s better for him to forgo his pay honestly than to stake his claim to false insurance money.

[bbalnation]

I dont think hes right, after all his employer advocacy work. I havent been following along, but I'll entertain this for a second.

A Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist dont fit what A or B speak of. These are the therapists that are often handling "talk therapy". I imagine it's who Ben is seeing. Psychiatrists are generally responsible for that initial diagnosis, prescribing meds, and then in some cases, talk therapy as well.

Im annoyed at you (Sixerscan) because you brought this CBA contract/quote to this thread with a couple purposes in mind and its clear you don't actually know what you're speaking about to get those selfish needs met. It was reckless.

So, are you good now Sixerscan?

bbalnation, check again, I didn't bring the CBA quote into the thread. Looks like a fella by the name of MrBigShot did. I just responded to someone that was obviously misreading it and explained it to them.

You have no idea what information Simmons is and is not providing. According to Woj, he's refused to provide "basic details" which could very easily include a basic diagnosis or other information provided by his psychiatrist. Which, by the way, is pretty important considering a provision under the CBA that he could theoretically claim he is entitled payment without getting on the court is a mental disability, which is diagnosed by a psychiatrist. I don't think the Sixers want access to his dream diary or anything, they just want the information needed to prove he's entitled payment.

Again, if Simmons has provided every thing he needs to provide, let's see the players association go to bat for him. Heck let's see Rich Paul say something.

Hit you back with an accidental false fwiw of my own

Im not sure why you think an actual diagnosis is required? Or you, the sixers organization, the public, anyone but Ben and his therapist are entitled to one?

All they need to know is that he's seeing his therapist (which could be a Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist, Psychiatrist). It doesn't say anywhere otherwise. And for you to insinuate otherwise, Sixerscan, is just taking us in another circle.

They can spin this however they want via the media, and the NBPA will absolutely go to bat for him. Please, continue going to bar for the billionaire, and the rights of employers seeing the diagnosis of anyone who has the courage to get the help they need. Regardless of what you think of Ben, this sets a precedent.

If I have any type of serious illness, I dont want my boss to know if they dont need to. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way.

In this case, the sixers dont need to. It doesn't say anything anywhere in Woj tweets about insurance. You folks are the ones bringing that narrative up.

The fines stopped after Alaa made the Giddey comment. The fines started today after the Sarver stuff broke, and the Kyrie stuff is breaking. Easy to sneak stuff if in from a public relations point of view, since the pause in fines were never part of the plan. It's clear they were just waiting for the right time to let the Sixers hate die down, and get the anti-Ben narrative going.

[Sixerscan]

bbalnation, check again, I didn't bring the CBA quote into the thread. Looks like a fella by the name of MrBigShot did. I just responded to someone that was obviously misreading it and explained it to them.

You have no idea what information Simmons is and is not providing. According to Woj, he's refused to provide "basic details" which could very easily include a basic diagnosis or other information provided by his psychiatrist. Which, by the way, is pretty important considering a provision under the CBA that he could theoretically claim he is entitled payment without getting on the court is a mental disability, which is diagnosed by a psychiatrist. I don't think the Sixers want access to his dream diary or anything, they just want the information needed to prove he's entitled payment.

Again, if Simmons has provided every thing he needs to provide, let's see the players association go to bat for him. Heck let's see Rich Paul say something.

Hit you back with an accidental false fwiw of my own

Im not sure why you think an actual diagnosis is required? Or you, the sixers organization, the public, anyone but Ben and his therapist are entitled to one?

All they need to know is that he's seeing his therapist (which could be a Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist, Psychiatrist). It doesn't say anywhere otherwise. And for you to insinuate otherwise, Sixerscan, is just taking us in another circle.

They can spin this however they want via the media, and the NBPA will absolutely go to bat for him. Please, continue going to bar for the billionaire, and the rights of employers seeing the diagnosis of anyone who has the courage to get the help they need. Regardless of what you think of Ben, this sets a precedent.

If I have any type of serious illness, I dont want my boss to know if they dont need to. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way.

In this case, the sixers dont need to. It doesn't say anything anywhere in Woj tweets about insurance. You folks are the ones bringing that narrative up.

The fines stopped after Alaa made the Giddey comment. The fines started today after the Sarver stuff broke, and the Kyrie stuff is breaking. That's whats happening.

Because that's what the CBA says.

If you think the CBA is unfair that's fine, but I'm just saying what the CBA says.

[bbalnation]

Hit you back with an accidental false fwiw of my own

Im not sure why you think an actual diagnosis is required? Or you, the sixers organization, the public, anyone but Ben and his therapist are entitled to one?

All they need to know is that he's seeing his therapist (which could be a Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist, Psychiatrist). It doesn't say anywhere otherwise. And for you to insinuate otherwise, Sixerscan, is just taking us in another circle.

They can spin this however they want via the media, and the NBPA will absolutely go to bat for him. Please, continue going to bar for the billionaire, and the rights of employers seeing the diagnosis of anyone who has the courage to get the help they need. Regardless of what you think of Ben, this sets a precedent.

If I have any type of serious illness, I dont want my boss to know if they dont need to. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way.

In this case, the sixers dont need to. It doesn't say anything anywhere in Woj tweets about insurance. You folks are the ones bringing that narrative up.

The fines stopped after Alaa made the Giddey comment. The fines started today after the Sarver stuff broke, and the Kyrie stuff is breaking. That's whats happening.

Because that's what the CBA says.

If you think the CBA is unfair that's fine, but I'm just saying what the CBA says.

You're under the assumption he's seeing a psychiatrist. He's likely seeing a THERAPIST. A psychologist, social worker, or Psychotherapist.

So you're not actually saying what the CBA says.

[Dominator83]

The fact you compared contracting work to a salaried position shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

That's a bunch of bull and you know it. Players get paid to provide services. What services is he providing ?

Right at this very second? I have no idea. Are they still selling merch featuring his name and likeness? Are they still using him in advertising materials? These players generate revenue for a team beyond what they do on the court.

As for your example, it's a bunch of bull and you know it. If the same guy couldn't build my garage because he'd been involved in a freak accident and lost both his hands...guess what? He still wouldn't be getting paid. Same as if he had a death in the family, or was suffering a mental health issue like you said, or his freaking car broke down. None of that matters because he's a contractor.

It is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT to being in a salary position. And it's the kind of asinine herp derp "example" I keep seeing that deserves to be called out.

This situation isn't anywhere near as black and white as you seem eager to paint it is. Hence, you don't know what you're talking about.

What Sixers fan is buying Simmons merch anymore? Nobody. So no they're not selling merch with his name.

Players sign a CONTRACT. They are contractors. They sign a contract where they agree to provide services in exchange for an agreed upon amount of money. He's not honoring his contract. So the Sixers shouldn't either.

[Sixerscan]

Im not sure why you think an actual diagnosis is required? Or you, the sixers organization, the public, anyone but Ben and his therapist are entitled to one?

All they need to know is that he's seeing his therapist (which could be a Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist, Psychiatrist). It doesn't say anywhere otherwise. And for you to insinuate otherwise, Sixerscan, is just taking us in another circle.

They can spin this however they want via the media, and the NBPA will absolutely go to bat for him. Please, continue going to bar for the billionaire, and the rights of employers seeing the diagnosis of anyone who has the courage to get the help they need. Regardless of what you think of Ben, this sets a precedent.

If I have any type of serious illness, I dont want my boss to know if they dont need to. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way.

In this case, the sixers dont need to. It doesn't say anything anywhere in Woj tweets about insurance. You folks are the ones bringing that narrative up.

The fines stopped after Alaa made the Giddey comment. The fines started today after the Sarver stuff broke, and the Kyrie stuff is breaking. That's whats happening.

Because that's what the CBA says.

If you think the CBA is unfair that's fine, but I'm just saying what the CBA says.

You're under the assumption he's seeing a psychiatrist. He's likely seeing a THERAPIST. A psychologist, social worker, or Psychotherapist.

So you're not actually saying what the CBA says.

Again, you don't know who he is and isn't seeing and what he's withholding. Just going by the fines, he isn't doing something he agreed to do, which wouldn't be surprising given that he hasn't been doing things he agreed to do but still wanting to get paid for it for months now. If it turns out he isn't doing anything wrong, he's worth 10s of millions of dollars, he has a big agency representing him, one of the wealthiest unions in history behind him, I'm sure it will all get sorted out.

[bbalnation]

Because that's what the CBA says.

If you think the CBA is unfair that's fine, but I'm just saying what the CBA says.

You're under the assumption he's seeing a psychiatrist. He's likely seeing a THERAPIST. A psychologist, social worker, or Psychotherapist.

So you're not actually saying what the CBA says.

Again, you don't know who he is and isn't seeing and what he's withholding. Just going by the fines, he isn't doing something he agreed to do, which wouldn't be surprising given that he hasn't been doing things he agreed to do but still wanting to get paid for it for months now. If it turns out he isn't doing anything wrong, he's worth 10s of millions of dollars, he has a big agency representing him, one of the wealthiest unions in history behind him, I'm sure it will all get sorted out.

So you're okay to assume psychiatrist, but im not okay to assume one of the the other 3 practitioners even though they're the ones that are trained for talk therapy?

We know he's seeing an NBPA THERAPIST. Google what type of practitioner a therapist is to ease that mind. There are no assumptions needed my man.

Going by the fines would be giving the benefit of the doubt to the organization instead of the player. Um, no thanks. That organizations recent history has shown nothing that would entitle it to that type of trust. And even without, I dont know why people are obsessed with defending corporations over humans, but hey, more power to ya there too.

[HotRocks34]

As LAL said above, the CBA text seems fairly clear. Either the player who is hurt (physically or mentally) works with a team-related specialist (who passes on info to the team), or else they work with an outside specialist who is required (via the specialist or the player, I guess) to pass along information to the team. If that "passing along information" isn't done, then the player would seem to be in violation of the CBA and thus the Sixers would appear to be in good shape as regards their ability to fine Simmons (until such information is forthcoming).

I've dealt with disability cases that regard mental health issues. Typically in those situations whatever agency requests/needs (is entitled to) information can get access to certain things and not others. For example, therapist notes are off limits. Certain information from a psychiatrist can be obtained (like a diagnosis and maybe treatment/medication routines). But personal issues (beyond the diagnosis/treatment/etc) are likely off limits.

It's similar to physical health. If I play pro for a team they are entitled to know that I blew out my ACL, but they don't get to know the minute-by-minute details of the meeting I had with the doctor who told me I blew out my ACL. That's personal information, and not relevant to my relationship with the team.

So, I don't get to claim I blew out my ACL without having someone validate that. I don't have to go to a team physician and get examined, I guess, but some certified professional with expertise and the necessary equipment (X-rays, MRI) has to validate my injury and give my team employers some idea of what I need to do to rehab the injury and how long it might take.

I very much doubt we're done on this issue (suddenly Simmons gets a mental health professional to send Philly info and both sides go Kumbaya from there), but the step the Sixers took in starting up the fines again seems reasonable if what is being reported is true (that no information is forthcoming on the matter to the Sixers from experts Simmons is using outside of the team).

[DCasey91]

- He’s under a long term contract.
- Refusing to undergo Sixers help which is legitimate and above board due to players protection and refusing to play equals fines.
- Not well, cool go see our doc, “But I don’t wanna I got my own people”. Okay where’s yours sick details?
- Umm....
- Cool you’ll get a fine for not coming to work without an established reason like every other nba player. Can’t get paid when you don’t play without a credited document/legal process.
- Teammates are fuming and are galvanized with a great start.
- As someone mentioned earlier it can go from being a spoilt rich kid to facing criminal activity (fraud) that’s serious.
- Ben’s and Ben’s camp have lost big time, it’s better to grow up and face reality sooner rather than later.
- Sixers are the mediators here but Ben doesn’t want to play ball, and all his way.... well sorry mate you bite the hand that feeds you don’t expect the hand to pick you back up in fact get ready for a slap in the face which is happening now.

[celtics543]

Houston wanted to rebuild and got what the wanted.
Philly doesn't want to rebuild, that's the difference.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

The real question is how does Embiid feel about it? SEEMS FINE WITH ITIf you play chicken with Ben and don't trade him and he doesn't play again then isn't Embiid going to be pretty upset? SEEMS FINE WITH ITI'm sure if Embiid thinks management is more interested in this personal war with Ben Simmons than they are with helping him win a title he's going to look to leave too.SEEMS FINE WITH IT

Ok, keep telling yourself that. Sounds like us Celtics fans when we all said Kyrie was coming back. Best of luck over the next 75 games not having a frustrated Embiid.

[DaPessimist]

I'm not sure what Simmons expects. You don't show up for work, you don't get paid. Trying to fake injuries and mental health issues isn't a good look either.


And the 76ers can't trade him until at least December 15th, when a lot more players will be available.

[J_T]

Part 56 of the saga: "Simmons produced a report by the certified NBPA doctor, stating that film study and strength training cause him tremendous mental pain."

[Nate505]

This is a bad look for the 76ers.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

It is? They are biting the bullet for the greater good of the league. They look great to me.

[kuclas]

I think he doesn’t want to turn in any information because then it goes from a problem child to a criminal act if he is falsifying his diagnosis for pay.

It’s better for him to forgo his pay honestly than to stake his claim to false insurance money.

He doesn’t want to lose the money. Everyone says he has enough money is wrong. These guys spend the money so fast. His pace. If he doesn’t play again. He will go broke in 5-7 years. Say he’s made 80 million? In 5 years? After taxes that’s 50 million. Plenty of money for 99.99 of people.

But he probably spends 500k each month. 6 Million a year.
These guys aren’t the wisest investors either. He be broke in 7 years.

[vital_signs]

The saddest part of this is his game salary being 5.5x what my bumass makes in a year.

[MrBigShot]

bbalnation, check again, I didn't bring the CBA quote into the thread. Looks like a fella by the name of MrBigShot did. I just responded to someone that was obviously misreading it and explained it to them.

You have no idea what information Simmons is and is not providing. According to Woj, he's refused to provide "basic details" which could very easily include a basic diagnosis or other information provided by his psychiatrist. Which, by the way, is pretty important considering a provision under the CBA that he could theoretically claim he is entitled payment without getting on the court is a mental disability, which is diagnosed by a psychiatrist. I don't think the Sixers want access to his dream diary or anything, they just want the information needed to prove he's entitled payment.

Again, if Simmons has provided every thing he needs to provide, let's see the players association go to bat for him. Heck let's see Rich Paul say something.

Hit you back with an accidental false fwiw of my own

Im not sure why you think an actual diagnosis is required? Or you, the sixers organization, the public, anyone but Ben and his therapist are entitled to one?

All they need to know is that he's seeing his therapist (which could be a Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist, Psychiatrist). It doesn't say anywhere otherwise. And for you to insinuate otherwise, Sixerscan, is just taking us in another circle.

They can spin this however they want via the media, and the NBPA will absolutely go to bat for him. Please, continue going to bar for the billionaire, and the rights of employers seeing the diagnosis of anyone who has the courage to get the help they need. Regardless of what you think of Ben, this sets a precedent.

If I have any type of serious illness, I dont want my boss to know if they dont need to. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way.

In this case, the sixers dont need to. It doesn't say anything anywhere in Woj tweets about insurance. You folks are the ones bringing that narrative up.

The fines stopped after Alaa made the Giddey comment. The fines started today after the Sarver stuff broke, and the Kyrie stuff is breaking. Easy to sneak stuff if in from a public relations point of view, since the pause in fines were never part of the plan. It's clear they were just waiting for the right time to let the Sixers hate die down, and get the anti-Ben narrative going.

This is honestly crazy to me. Even the people taking Simmons claims at face value are reasonable enough to admit that it's perfectly reasonable for the Sixers to expect some sort of documentation to substantiate his health.

I don't think you realize the weight of what you are saying and how this could be abused by a disgruntled player who doesn't want to play for a team anymore. This isn't about defending billionaires or the Sixers, it's about making sure someone doesn't use mental health as a ploy in bad faith, so that other athletes who struggle with mental health are actually taken seriously. If Simmons is being genuine he should have absolutely zero qualms about going to a neutral psychiatrist and providing documentation.

I honestly don't think Simmons and Klutch understand the weight of what they're doing either to be honest, if this is a ploy they are outright committing criminal fraud, mental health issues are not something to be taken lightly. Like I said above, It's not hard for him to prove the legitimacy of his claims. He could go do it tomorrow if he wanted to. At the absolute, bare minimum, very least, he should get a neutral doctor to inform the Sixers that he is mentally unable to play.

[xdrta+]

He is seeing a real therapist, though. That's a given. He has been seeing an NBPA mental health professional since this summer. I don't think that anyone can dispute whether that therapist is real or not.

What the Sixers are asking here is for Simmons to give them a report about what that therapist says. They are asking for his diagnosis and, to me, it's not clear whether they have the right to do it or not.

The NBPA works for the players. They are not neutral, the therapist must be an independent third party, not from NBPA, Sixers, or Ben Simmons.

Says who? Is it written anywhere in the CBA that the therapist must be an independent third party?

Yes, it is written in the CBA. If Simmons wants to contest the fines, it goes to an arbitrator, and a neutral medical opinion who will advise the arbitrator. The CBA reads,

"...the NBA and the Players
Association shall agree upon a neutral physician or (in the absence of such
agreement) jointly request that the President of the American College of
Orthopedic Surgeons (or such other similar organization as the NBA and
the Players Association agree may be most appropriate to the issues in
dispute) designate a physician who has no relationship with any party
covered by this Agreement who shall, for purposes of the dispute, serve as
an independent medical expert and consultant to the Grievance Arbitrator."

[Yoshun]

There's a ton of assumptions being made in this thread. It's ball based on very little information.