76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#381 » by Sixerscan » Sat Nov 6, 2021 3:33 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
You bring about a good point about disclosure as per the CBA but the question is what are the Sixers actually getting out of this information? It’s not like Simmons is going to some psychiatrist at the strip mall, it’s through the NBAPA so not sure why they can’t go through other channels to get that info.

From Simmons’ point of view I could see he’s reluctant to disclose too much, especially with the risk of leaks. Not that Morey would leak it, but you never know what could happen,with an organization as large as the Sixers. And from Morey’s perspective his interest is just getting Simmons back on the court, but not sure if he’s going to get the answer to that from therapist notes alone. And I still assume there are still HIPPA rights regarding what can be disclosed. The problem is that neither side trusts the other one so any type of mutual resolution seems far away.


They get proof that he has a legit reason under the CBA to get paid millions of dollars despite not performing services.

If he doesn't want to disclose anything that's fine but if he wants to get paid under his contract, he has to disclose certain things under it. I'm not going to explain HIPPA here but trust me it is not relevant (and google it if you don't want to take my word for it).


And the bold is exactly the problem with the approach the Sixers are taking. Like I said, there’s no trust from either party and in normal circumstances would any team go to these lengths to disprove mental health issues? This isn’t something at even a psychiatrist could make a definitive statement on. It really depends on if Simmons is in the mental state to play. Other than “Simmons is making progress” I don’t know exactly what they expect from the therapist. They’re not going to go into details and there’s a good reason that players wouldn’t want teams to know about the specifics of their mental health issues.

I’m not American so I don’t know exactly how HIPPA works in all situations but I’ll take your word that it doesn’t apply here.


HIPPA basically stops hospitals and similar entities from sharing patient medical information without their consent. So first, a professional sports league isn't covered by HIPPA. Second, there's a provision in every player's contract that they have to disclose their medical information to the team, and the team can disclose it, which is why you get hourly injury reports about every player's availability to play.

I would agree with you about the Sixers' approach if this just came out of nowhere, the thing is it is a culmination of months and months of him pulling every trick in the book to avoid rejoining the team, and even this latest thing is the culmination of him going several weeks of not cooperating with them, which may very well include providing such a statement from his psychiatrist or therapist. When he first said he was having mental issues, he met with the team, the two sides clearly set expectations, and he's clearly blowing them off. How long would you expect them to wait while also paying him millions of dollars? He's basically backed the team into a corner where either they just have to be treated like fools or play hardball with him.

Again, if the team is doing anything wrong, I would expect his agent or the players association (or heck, how about we hear from Ben himself?) to say so and explain what it is, otherwise all he has defending him is random people online who don't know anything about the situation.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#382 » by Yoshun » Sat Nov 6, 2021 3:50 pm

hauntedcomputer wrote:
Buckets22 wrote:The team owners should gather around a table in a dark, smoke filled room and make a pact to put these spoiled brats in their place.


1850 is calling and wants to make America great again.

Bunch of old (mostly) white sociopathic property owners cracking the whip on labor.


Isn't it interesting how quickly people can be to give corporations and business owners the benefit of the doubt over individual people?

I'm not saying Ben is right here, I don't know, it's just interesting how many people jump to the side of the Sixers. Really there isn't nearly enough known about this at all.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#383 » by Sixerscan » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:02 pm

Yoshun wrote:
hauntedcomputer wrote:
Buckets22 wrote:The team owners should gather around a table in a dark, smoke filled room and make a pact to put these spoiled brats in their place.


1850 is calling and wants to make America great again.

Bunch of old (mostly) white sociopathic property owners cracking the whip on labor.


Isn't it interesting how quickly people can be to give corporations and business owners the benefit of the doubt over individual people?

I'm not saying Ben is right here, I don't know, it's just interesting how many people jump to the side of the Sixers. Really there isn't nearly enough known about this at all.

I'm not jumping to the Sixers' side. This may not be something you think about a lot but this has been a saga that has been at the forefront of all Sixers news for like 5 months at this point. Yes after him going through every move in the book to avoid playing for the team while still getting paid I think he should show his work.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#384 » by xdrta+ » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:10 pm

If he wants to get paid let him file a grievance and take it to arbitration. A neutral panel of medical experts will advise and and an arbitrator will decide. Skip all the histrionics.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#385 » by thenbaman » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:22 pm

xdrta+ wrote:If he wants to get paid let him file a grievance and take it to arbitration. A neutral panel of medical experts will advise and and an arbitrator will decide. Skip all the histrionics.

Yea klutch wants to avoid that at all cost.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#386 » by Yoshun » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:33 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
Yoshun wrote:
hauntedcomputer wrote:
1850 is calling and wants to make America great again.

Bunch of old (mostly) white sociopathic property owners cracking the whip on labor.


Isn't it interesting how quickly people can be to give corporations and business owners the benefit of the doubt over individual people?

I'm not saying Ben is right here, I don't know, it's just interesting how many people jump to the side of the Sixers. Really there isn't nearly enough known about this at all.

I'm not jumping to the Sixers' side. This may not be something you think about a lot but this has been a saga that has been at the forefront of all Sixers news for like 5 months at this point. Yes after him going through every move in the book to avoid playing for the team while still getting paid I think he should show his work.


I wasn't pointing you out specifically, apologies if it came across that way. There seem to be a lot of people in here just popping in and making statements like, "Give the brat what he deserves." That said, how do you know he hasn't shown his work?

I have been following it, probably not as closely as you, but it is an area of interest of mine. I'm a fan of many of the Sixers' players ( Embiid, Harris, Thybulle and Simmons to name a few) and anything mental health related sparks my interest. I've been seeing a lot of vague responses from the Sixers and almost nothing from Simmons. I'd like to know what they mean by "basic details" for example.

From them: What exactly are they asking of him?

From him: What are you doing to get better?
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#387 » by HotelVitale » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:41 pm

Yoshun wrote:
hauntedcomputer wrote:
Buckets22 wrote:The team owners should gather around a table in a dark, smoke filled room and make a pact to put these spoiled brats in their place.


1850 is calling and wants to make America great again.

Bunch of old (mostly) white sociopathic property owners cracking the whip on labor.


Isn't it interesting how quickly people can be to give corporations and business owners the benefit of the doubt over individual people?

I'm not saying Ben is right here, I don't know, it's just interesting how many people jump to the side of the Sixers. Really there isn't nearly enough known about this at all.


Lol, it is. The hardest thing about American politics (it's everywhere but way worse in the US) is that so much of the whole game is the right posturing about how being tough, taking control, not making excuses, etc is the solution for everything, and that line of talk is so effective/dominant that the rest of politics is basically struggling to compromise so there's something--anything, however small--besides that stance in power. There's never a real conversation about the best way to deal with social or economic issues, since the threat of 'just shut up, the system is the system and everyone should suffer if they don't fall in line with it' starts as the dominant voice. Climate change? Wild inequality? Pandemic killing people? Shut up and don't even think about blaming the system, just go out there and do what you have to--only weaklings, extremists with agendas, and pathetic people who can't get over their feelings can't man up and thrive in this system we got.
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76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#388 » by sikma42 » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:44 pm

thenbaman wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:If he wants to get paid let him file a grievance and take it to arbitration. A neutral panel of medical experts will advise and and an arbitrator will decide. Skip all the histrionics.

Yea klutch wants to avoid that at all cost.

This is absolute last thing the Sixers want.


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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#389 » by moderndarwin » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:47 pm

I am firmly against Ben Simmons on this topic. I find the argument that people are quick to take the side of the corporations not valid here. The players themselves have a representative body that dictates the rules of engagement. And unlike most other regulatory practices they meet and change these up every few years through a collaborative process. I find its absolute nonsense that a player would not follow these established guidelines. Again, if the guidelines were different all good too. I think there’s this overarching attitude in America of protest / unfairness but not that same energy toward the slow boring work of let’s put systems / rules in place through a democratic process…and then let’s follow those rules. If I was a player in the NBA i’d hope they’d take away 100% of his salary or give it to charity or something.

Follow the rules and get paid or don’t follow the rules and don’t get paid. It’s not more complex than that. If the rules suck make sure they get changed next time around…cuz the players have plenty of power in shaping the way the league operates.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#390 » by xdrta+ » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:48 pm

sikma42 wrote:
thenbaman wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:If he wants to get paid let him file a grievance and take it to arbitration. A neutral panel of medical experts will advise and and an arbitrator will decide. Skip all the histrionics.

Yea klutch wants to avoid that at all cost.

Attorney here. This is absolute last thing the Sixers want.


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If true (which I doubt), why doesn't Simmons do it?
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#391 » by Sixerscan » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:56 pm

Yoshun wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Yoshun wrote:
Isn't it interesting how quickly people can be to give corporations and business owners the benefit of the doubt over individual people?

I'm not saying Ben is right here, I don't know, it's just interesting how many people jump to the side of the Sixers. Really there isn't nearly enough known about this at all.

I'm not jumping to the Sixers' side. This may not be something you think about a lot but this has been a saga that has been at the forefront of all Sixers news for like 5 months at this point. Yes after him going through every move in the book to avoid playing for the team while still getting paid I think he should show his work.


I wasn't pointing you out specifically, apologies if it came across that way. There seem to be a lot of people in here just popping in and making statements like, "Give the brat what he deserves." That said, how do you know he hasn't shown his work?

I have been following it, probably not as closely as you, but it is an area of interest of mine. I'm a fan of many of the Sixers' players ( Embiid, Harris, Thybulle and Simmons to name a few) and anything mental health related sparks my interest. I've been seeing a lot of vague responses from the Sixers and almost nothing from Simmons. I'd like to know what they mean by "basic details" for example.

From them: What exactly are they asking of him?

From him: What are you doing to get better?

Because he got fined for not providing basic information and none of him, his agent or the players association have disputed it? What else is there to go off of?

I don't know what exactly the Sixers are asking him for (I would assume it's stuff like (a) have you been diagnosed by a psychiatrist (b) what is your diagnosis (c) what are you doing to treat it) but by all reports he's given them basically nothing:

Sixers officials believe that they have been supportive of Simmons' stated need for mental health assistance and that they are left no choice but for these actions in response to the three-time All-Star's refusal to provide basic details of his course of mental health meetings, evaluation or treatments or to accept consultation with any specialists arranged by the team, sources said.
...
After Simmons incurred $2 million in penalties for a training camp holdout and limited return to the team, Philadelphia stopped fining him two weeks ago when he told team officials and teammates that he wasn't mentally prepared to play and planned to seek professional assistance.

In that time, Simmons, 25, has worked cooperatively with his own and team physicians on a back ailment but has told the Sixers repeatedly that he is unwilling to share information on his course of action in pursuing mental health treatment, sources said.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#392 » by sikma42 » Sat Nov 6, 2021 4:57 pm

xdrta+ wrote:
sikma42 wrote:
thenbaman wrote:Yea klutch wants to avoid that at all cost.

Attorney here. This is absolute last thing the Sixers want.


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If true (which I doubt), why doesn't Simmons do it?

This isn’t my practice area, but there are costs associated with it and this is all new. Simmons goal isn’t to make things the absolute worst for the 76ers..he isn’t trying to punish.

If it comes down to arbitration, it’s an avenue you can explore and their are risk associated from both sides. But at this point we have very little information. We don’t know what has or hasn’t been provided and what has actually been asked. Simmons can simply respond (if he hasn’t already) with a 1) diagnosis, 2) confirmation he is attending sessions and 3)type of therapy. If they want assurances from an agreed upon third party, they discuss. If they want something that is unreasonable then there could be a problem. But these are all hypos and we have little information and I’m not getting paid to research and analyze this is on a Saturday :)


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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#393 » by kazyv » Sat Nov 6, 2021 5:16 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
You bring about a good point about disclosure as per the CBA but the question is what are the Sixers actually getting out of this information? It’s not like Simmons is going to some psychiatrist at the strip mall, it’s through the NBAPA so not sure why they can’t go through other channels to get that info.

From Simmons’ point of view I could see he’s reluctant to disclose too much, especially with the risk of leaks. Not that Morey would leak it, but you never know what could happen,with an organization as large as the Sixers. And from Morey’s perspective his interest is just getting Simmons back on the court, but not sure if he’s going to get the answer to that from therapist notes alone. And I still assume there are still HIPPA rights regarding what can be disclosed. The problem is that neither side trusts the other one so any type of mutual resolution seems far away.


They get proof that he has a legit reason under the CBA to get paid millions of dollars despite not performing services.

If he doesn't want to disclose anything that's fine but if he wants to get paid under his contract, he has to disclose certain things under it. I'm not going to explain HIPPA here but trust me it is not relevant (and google it if you don't want to take my word for it).


And the bold is exactly the problem with the approach the Sixers are taking. Like I said, there’s no trust from either party and in normal circumstances would any team go to these lengths to disprove mental health issues? This isn’t something at even a psychiatrist could make a definitive statement on. It really depends on if Simmons is in the mental state to play. Other than “Simmons is making progress” I don’t know exactly what they expect from the therapist. They’re not going to go into details and there’s a good reason that players wouldn’t want teams to know about the specifics of their mental health issues.

I’m not American so I don’t know exactly how HIPPA works in all situations but I’ll take your word that it doesn’t apply here.


well, how about ben is making progress and we can expect it to last 6 months. or ben is making progress and can return to team practice in 3 month but won't play the rest of the year. or if you wish, ben is nowhere near close, so he won't come back for 2 years. i'm sorry, but cashing checks on some whimsical "he's not ready" is just crazy to me. it actually doesn't sound legitimate at all.

i mean what exactly is his problem? they were mean to him? well maybe they need couples counselling. in that case, he shouldn't be ghosting the sixers, doc and ben should be seeing each other every tuesday

even something as simple as ben might have a serious thingy, but we need a couple of sessions to evauluate what it is and how to approach it, so we will be able to tell more in january.

not saying anything screams they have nothing. they are full of ****. that's all there is to it
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#394 » by xdrta+ » Sat Nov 6, 2021 5:18 pm

sikma42 wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
sikma42 wrote:Attorney here. This is absolute last thing the Sixers want.


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If true (which I doubt), why doesn't Simmons do it?

This isn’t my practice area, but there are costs associated with it and this is all new. Simmons goal isn’t to make things the absolute worst for the 76ers..he isn’t trying to punish.

If it comes down to arbitration, it’s an avenue you can explore and their are risk associated from both sides. But at this point we have very little information. We don’t know what has or hasn’t been provided and what has actually been asked. Simmons can simply respond (if he hasn’t already) with a 1) diagnosis, 2) confirmation he is attending sessions and 3)type of therapy. If they want assurances from an agreed upon third party, they discuss. If they want something that is unreasonable then there could be a problem. But these are all hypos and we have little information and I’m not getting paid to research and analyze this is on a Saturday :)


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So you have no information and no expertise, but you are sure that this is the "absolute last thing the Sixers want." Got it.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#395 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sat Nov 6, 2021 5:27 pm

Nuntius wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
Yeah, sure. Let's pretend that athletes who struggle with mental health are taken seriously. Let's pretend that Royce White was never treated like **** by this league and this forum back in 12-13. Let's also pretend that no one has brought up DeRozan's and Love's mental health issues when they criticize them. Let's just pretend that all is well and rosy here and that there isn't a stigma against people suffering with mental health issues.


Yes, and Simmons is erasing every step in a good direction that has been made


Nah. Only the people who want that progress to be erased are doing that and they would have been doing that with or without this incident. Simmons is just a convenient excuse.
The world is not black or white, the vast majority of people doesn't have such a strong opinion on matters like this one.
Such an egregious example of gaming the system will convince morenuninformed serious that this is not serious.

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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#396 » by dhsilv2 » Sat Nov 6, 2021 5:32 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
They get proof that he has a legit reason under the CBA to get paid millions of dollars despite not performing services.

If he doesn't want to disclose anything that's fine but if he wants to get paid under his contract, he has to disclose certain things under it. I'm not going to explain HIPPA here but trust me it is not relevant (and google it if you don't want to take my word for it).


And the bold is exactly the problem with the approach the Sixers are taking. Like I said, there’s no trust from either party and in normal circumstances would any team go to these lengths to disprove mental health issues? This isn’t something at even a psychiatrist could make a definitive statement on. It really depends on if Simmons is in the mental state to play. Other than “Simmons is making progress” I don’t know exactly what they expect from the therapist. They’re not going to go into details and there’s a good reason that players wouldn’t want teams to know about the specifics of their mental health issues.

I’m not American so I don’t know exactly how HIPPA works in all situations but I’ll take your word that it doesn’t apply here.


HIPPA basically stops hospitals and similar entities from sharing patient medical information without their consent. So first, a professional sports league isn't covered by HIPPA. Second, there's a provision in every player's contract that they have to disclose their medical information to the team, and the team can disclose it, which is why you get hourly injury reports about every player's availability to play.

I would agree with you about the Sixers' approach if this just came out of nowhere, the thing is it is a culmination of months and months of him pulling every trick in the book to avoid rejoining the team, and even this latest thing is the culmination of him going several weeks of not cooperating with them, which may very well include providing such a statement from his psychiatrist or therapist. When he first said he was having mental issues, he met with the team, the two sides clearly set expectations, and he's clearly blowing them off. How long would you expect them to wait while also paying him millions of dollars? He's basically backed the team into a corner where either they just have to be treated like fools or play hardball with him.

Again, if the team is doing anything wrong, I would expect his agent or the players association (or heck, how about we hear from Ben himself?) to say so and explain what it is, otherwise all he has defending him is random people online who don't know anything about the situation.


This wasn't really out of the blue. We were told a few days before this that Simmons was refusing to work with the 76ers doctors and that he wasn't sharing any of what he was doing with the team. It sounds like they don't even know if he is actually seeing someone and how often.

I'm sure both sides at this point are likely not working well together. But Ben's got to accept that he's under contracts, has no leverage, and needs to find a way to work together.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#397 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sat Nov 6, 2021 5:35 pm

bbalnation wrote:
Im not sure why you think an actual diagnosis is required? Or you, the sixers organization, the public, anyone but Ben and his therapist are entitled to one?

All they need to know is that he's seeing his therapist (which could be a Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist, Psychiatrist). It doesn't say anywhere otherwise. And for you to insinuate otherwise, Sixerscan, is just taking us in another circle.

They can spin this however they want via the media, and the NBPA will absolutely go to bat for him. Please, continue going to bar for the billionaire, and the rights of employers seeing the diagnosis of anyone who has the courage to get the help they need. Regardless of what you think of Ben, this sets a precedent.

If I have any type of serious illness, I dont want my boss to know if they dont need to. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way.

In this case, the sixers dont need to. It doesn't say anything anywhere in Woj tweets about insurance. You folks are the ones bringing that narrative up.

the mistake here is putting a max level NBA player under contract for other 140m to the level of a common employee fighting for his rights against a multinational corporation.
He's not, he's not the weak part in the transaction, he's closer to the CEO than to the average worker.
Neither a guy like Simmons nor a billionaire gets any particular sympathy, for me. I prefer to save my indignation for the average people.

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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#398 » by Nuntius » Sat Nov 6, 2021 5:41 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:The world is not black or white,


I agree.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:the vast majority of people doesn't have such a strong opinion on matters like this one.


And yet you are definitely one of the people with a strong opinion on this matter.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Such an egregious example of gaming the system will convince morenuninformed serious that this is not serious.


You are operating under the assumption that Simmons is trying to "game the system". You can make this assumption all you want but don't pretend that it is factual. You have no proof to back it up. What will happen when Simmons' mental health issues are verified by an independent mental health professional? Will you come here and admit that you were wrong to make that assumption? No, of course not. People never admitted that they were wrong on Fultz and they will not admit that they were not wrong on this either. Because once someone can safely accuse someone as a "mental midget", a "nutcase" or any other similar slur, they feel no obligation to take it back once they're proved wrong. The stigma always remains with the accused.
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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#399 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sat Nov 6, 2021 5:44 pm

Nuntius wrote:You said that you've had mental health issues in the past so I have to ask. When you were seeing a mental health professional for that, did your employer vet them? Was your employer reading that mental health professional's reports and getting constant updates on your progress?

[...]

Issues like this one do not only affect the NBA.


would you be this sympathetic if it was a non performing CEO refusing to work, mentioning mental health issues, givibg no details and demanding to get paid in the process?
This is much closer to the Simmons situation.

Anyway, I would find completely normal if I am calling myself sick for an extended time that the employer would ask for proof, before continuing to pay me.
I have worked in many places in Europe, this is how it works.
I find it very unlikely that in the US the worker can demand the money without any proof.

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Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#400 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sat Nov 6, 2021 5:56 pm

Yoshun wrote:
hauntedcomputer wrote:
Buckets22 wrote:The team owners should gather around a table in a dark, smoke filled room and make a pact to put these spoiled brats in their place.


1850 is calling and wants to make America great again.

Bunch of old (mostly) white sociopathic property owners cracking the whip on labor.


Isn't it interesting how quickly people can be to give corporations and business owners the benefit of the doubt over individual people?

I'm not saying Ben is right here, I don't know, it's just interesting how many people jump to the side of the Sixers. Really there isn't nearly enough known about this at all.
NBA players like Simmons are corporations themselves, don't associate him with average workers.

The way this unfolded it's pretty normal that Simmons gets zero benefit of the doubt.

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