76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[FrodoFraggins]

Hopefully someone has already posted the info in this thread. But I saw something interesting on reddit yesterday

A Player who consults or is treated by a physician (including a psychiatrist) or a professional providing non-mental health related medical services (e.g., chiropractor, physical therapist) other than a physician or other professional designated by the Team shall give notice of such consultation or treatment to the Team and shall provide the Team with all information it may request concerning any condition that in the judgment of the Team’s physician may affect the Player’s ability to play skilled basketball.

This seems to leave a hole where the mental health related services are being given by a non physician, such as a psychologist.


https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/qm6dqq/charanias_tweet_was_a_76ers_warning_cba/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[rzzzzz]

If Ben has been receiving counseling/treatment, etc. from a professional referred to him by the Players Association since Summer, which his side has revealed to the public regardless of HIPAA protection, then he has some leg to stand on. But to expect to be fully compensated without supplying ongoing info to his employer…? The fact that they’ve returned to fining him must mean they think they have some leg to stand on as well.

[SkyHookFTW]

Sixers: Ben, can you watch game tape while being treated?
Ben: No

Sixers: Can you work out and stay in shape while being treated?
Ben: No

Sixers: Ben, can our medical staff review your treatment?
Ben: No

Sixers: Ben, can you just come to practice and watch? You don't have to do anything else.
Ben: No

Well, I'd not want to pay him too. The Sixers are not being unreasonable.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The world is not black or white,

I agree.

the vast majority of people doesn't have such a strong opinion on matters like this one.

And yet you are definitely one of the people with a strong opinion on this matter.

Such an egregious example of gaming the system will convince morenuninformed serious that this is not serious.

You are operating under the assumption that Simmons is trying to "game the system". You can make this assumption all you want but don't pretend that it is factual. You have no proof to back it up. What will happen when Simmons' mental health issues are verified by an independent mental health professional? Will you come here and admit that you were wrong to make that assumption? No, of course not. People never admitted that they were wrong on Fultz and they will not admit that they were not wrong on this either. Because once someone can safely accuse someone as a "mental midget", a "nutcase" or any other similar slur, they feel no obligation to take it back once they're proved wrong. The stigma always remains with the accused.

My strong opinion is that employees who are in a weak position must be protected by regulatory bodies to prevent the employers, that are usually in a stronger position and on their own might lack the negotating power, to take advantage of them. This is also how it works where I come from, not so much in the US, to my knowledge.
This is not Simmons case: he's not a weak part, he has a very strong NBPA behind, he's making ridiculous money. He's not the kind of employee that requires extra protections, this is a business relationship between two very strong parties.

Why I think this is not legit?
Because he's doing his best to send this message, by the way all this evolved.
He didn't come up, ask for help, trying to go back to contribute to his company.
No, he first stated he was not going to play, his agent threatened the Sixers in case the refused to keep paying, he came back when he stopped seeing the money, he trained with the phone in his trousers, he got suspended, only then he claimed mental health issues, refused to collaborate in any way and still demanded to get all the money in the process.
Sorry if I am calling BS on this, I can't be 100% sure (we never are, on anything) nut this is VERY FAR from a 50/50 situation.


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[sikma42]

If true (which I doubt), why doesn't Simmons do it?

This isn’t my practice area, but there are costs associated with it and this is all new. Simmons goal isn’t to make things the absolute worst for the 76ers..he isn’t trying to punish.

If it comes down to arbitration, it’s an avenue you can explore and their are risk associated from both sides. But at this point we have very little information. We don’t know what has or hasn’t been provided and what has actually been asked. Simmons can simply respond (if he hasn’t already) with a 1) diagnosis, 2) confirmation he is attending sessions and 3)type of therapy. If they want assurances from an agreed upon third party, they discuss. If they want something that is unreasonable then there could be a problem. But these are all hypos and we have little information and I’m not getting paid to research and analyze this is on a Saturday


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So you have no information and no expertise, but you are sure that this is the "absolute last thing the Sixers want." Got it.

To be fair, I have much more expertise than you and the information isn’t public. Have a nice day. Don’t spend too much of it angry on this message board.


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[Celts17Pride]

Someone explain to me how the Sixers are “Winning” here? Time to move on.

[xdrta+]

This isn’t my practice area, but there are costs associated with it and this is all new. Simmons goal isn’t to make things the absolute worst for the 76ers..he isn’t trying to punish.

If it comes down to arbitration, it’s an avenue you can explore and their are risk associated from both sides. But at this point we have very little information. We don’t know what has or hasn’t been provided and what has actually been asked. Simmons can simply respond (if he hasn’t already) with a 1) diagnosis, 2) confirmation he is attending sessions and 3)type of therapy. If they want assurances from an agreed upon third party, they discuss. If they want something that is unreasonable then there could be a problem. But these are all hypos and we have little information and I’m not getting paid to research and analyze this is on a Saturday


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So you have no information and no expertise, but you are sure that this is the "absolute last thing the Sixers want." Got it.

To be fair, I have much more expertise than you and the information isn’t public. Have a nice day. Don’t spend too much of it angry on this message board.


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To be fair, Internet lawyers and their expertise are a dime a dozen.

[kuclas]

Someone explain to me how the Sixers are “Winning” here? Time to move on.

You (front office/Morey ) won’t let players on long term contracts dictate their own terms. That’s what winning means

These malcontents need to learn their lessons. It’s one thing for Celtics stealing kyrie from Cleveland when he was disgruntled and with 2 years left. For injured IT/first round unprotected pick. That’s trading for for 25 cents on the dollar. But if kyrie had 4 years left. He wouldn’t been able to pull that stunt.

The sixers will either lose in first or second round this season with or without Simmons. With or without role players being offered.

So why do the trades when it doesn’t help the sixers. That’s what we mean by winning.

[Maxthirty]

Someone explain to me how the Sixers are “Winning” here? Time to move on.

You (front office/Morey ) won’t let players on long term contracts dictate their own terms. That’s what winning means

These malcontents need to learn their lessons. It’s one thing for Celtics stealing kyrie from Cleveland when he was disgruntled and with 2 years left. For injured IT/first round unprotected pick. That’s trading for for 25 cents on the dollar. But if kyrie had 4 years left. He wouldn’t been able to pull that stunt.

The sixers will either lose in first or second round this season with or without Simmons. With or without role players being offered.

So why do the trades when it doesn’t help the sixers. That’s what we mean by winning.

But other than stuff you just made up, how are the Sixers winning?

[FrodoFraggins]

Someone explain to me how the Sixers are “Winning” here? Time to move on.

You (front office/Morey ) won’t let players on long term contracts dictate their own terms. That’s what winning means

These malcontents need to learn their lessons. It’s one thing for Celtics stealing kyrie from Cleveland when he was disgruntled and with 2 years left. For injured IT/first round unprotected pick. That’s trading for for 25 cents on the dollar. But if kyrie had 4 years left. He wouldn’t been able to pull that stunt.

The sixers will either lose in first or second round this season with or without Simmons. With or without role players being offered.

So why do the trades when it doesn’t help the sixers. That’s what we mean by winning.

I've always seen teams just tell the player not to show up while they find a trade. You don't want this toxicity bleeding into the rest of the team. Morey is fighting a losing battle and comes off as a petty amateur.

The only time I remember a professional sports team treat a star player this badly was when the Lyons refused to trade Barry Sanders so he just retired.

[kuclas]

Someone explain to me how the Sixers are “Winning” here? Time to move on.

You (front office/Morey ) won’t let players on long term contracts dictate their own terms. That’s what winning means

These malcontents need to learn their lessons. It’s one thing for Celtics stealing kyrie from Cleveland when he was disgruntled and with 2 years left. For injured IT/first round unprotected pick. That’s trading for for 25 cents on the dollar. But if kyrie had 4 years left. He wouldn’t been able to pull that stunt.

The sixers will either lose in first or second round this season with or without Simmons. With or without role players being offered.

So why do the trades when it doesn’t help the sixers. That’s what we mean by winning.

I've always seen teams just tell the player not to show up while they find a trade. You don't want this toxicity bleeding into the rest of the team. Morey is fighting a losing battle and comes off as a petty amateur.

The only time I remember a professional sports team treat a star player this badly was when the Lyons refused to trade Barry Sanders so he just retired.

Simmons is gonna to be the poster child when his contract gets voided if he keeps this up.
The nba (for the league’s health) can’t let players dictate what they want or don’t want especially those on long term contracts.

No one held a gun to Simmons head when he signed a super max rookie extension. He could have asked for no trade clause if he wanted.

Simmons is a nut case refusing to shoot. I’d have more sympathy for him if he was on a long term 4 year 20 million dollar contract feeling under paid. But dude is getting 33-35 million a year. Guaranteed.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Someone explain to me how the Sixers are “Winning” here? Time to move on.

Nobody is winning there, that's pretty clear.
What the Sixers are doing is giving themselves an out.

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[Tomjas]

You (front office/Morey ) won’t let players on long term contracts dictate their own terms. That’s what winning means

These malcontents need to learn their lessons. It’s one thing for Celtics stealing kyrie from Cleveland when he was disgruntled and with 2 years left. For injured IT/first round unprotected pick. That’s trading for for 25 cents on the dollar. But if kyrie had 4 years left. He wouldn’t been able to pull that stunt.

The sixers will either lose in first or second round this season with or without Simmons. With or without role players being offered.

So why do the trades when it doesn’t help the sixers. That’s what we mean by winning.

I've always seen teams just tell the player not to show up while they find a trade. You don't want this toxicity bleeding into the rest of the team. Morey is fighting a losing battle and comes off as a petty amateur.

The only time I remember a professional sports team treat a star player this badly was when the Lyons refused to trade Barry Sanders so he just retired.

Simmons is gonna to be the poster child when his contract gets voided if he keeps this up.
The nba (for the league’s health) can’t let players dictate what they want or don’t want especially those on long term contracts.

No one held a gun to Simmons head when he signed a super max rookie extension. He could have asked for no trade clause if he wanted.

Simmons is a nut case refusing to shoot. I’d have more sympathy for him if he was on a long term 4 year 20 million dollar contract feeling under paid. But dude is getting 33-35 million a year. Guaranteed.

lol at believing Morey’s leaks

[xdrta+]

No one held a gun to Simmons head when he signed a super max rookie extension. He could have asked for no trade clause if he wanted.

A no-trade clause can be negotiated into a new contract if the player has been in the NBA for at least eight seasons. A no-trade clause can't be negotiated into an extension. That's one reason they are so rare.

[Duke4life831]

Someone explain to me how the Sixers are “Winning” here? Time to move on.

Ya I think this entire thing has been a great example of both sides losing. It seems like both sides continue to make really dumb moves that is just them digging their heels in deeper on their side and making it worse. Ego is a hell of a thing haha.

[Yoshun]

I'm not jumping to the Sixers' side. This may not be something you think about a lot but this has been a saga that has been at the forefront of all Sixers news for like 5 months at this point. Yes after him going through every move in the book to avoid playing for the team while still getting paid I think he should show his work.

I wasn't pointing you out specifically, apologies if it came across that way. There seem to be a lot of people in here just popping in and making statements like, "Give the brat what he deserves." That said, how do you know he hasn't shown his work?

I have been following it, probably not as closely as you, but it is an area of interest of mine. I'm a fan of many of the Sixers' players ( Embiid, Harris, Thybulle and Simmons to name a few) and anything mental health related sparks my interest. I've been seeing a lot of vague responses from the Sixers and almost nothing from Simmons. I'd like to know what they mean by "basic details" for example.

From them: What exactly are they asking of him?

From him: What are you doing to get better?

Because he got fined for not providing basic information and none of him, his agent or the players association have disputed it? What else is there to go off of?

I don't know what exactly the Sixers are asking him for (I would assume it's stuff like (a) have you been diagnosed by a psychiatrist (b) what is your diagnosis (c) what are you doing to treat it) but by all reports he's given them basically nothing:

Sixers officials believe that they have been supportive of Simmons' stated need for mental health assistance and that they are left no choice but for these actions in response to the three-time All-Star's refusal to provide basic details of his course of mental health meetings, evaluation or treatments or to accept consultation with any specialists arranged by the team, sources said.
...
After Simmons incurred $2 million in penalties for a training camp holdout and limited return to the team, Philadelphia stopped fining him two weeks ago when he told team officials and teammates that he wasn't mentally prepared to play and planned to seek professional assistance.

In that time, Simmons, 25, has worked cooperatively with his own and team physicians on a back ailment but has told the Sixers repeatedly that he is unwilling to share information on his course of action in pursuing mental health treatment, sources said.

Right, that's kind of what I'm saying. There is nothing else to go off of. All we have is the Sixers saying, " We asked him for stuff and he didn't give it to us." Along with assumptions as to what they're asking for. We really don't know what they're asking for or what Simmons has given them. Pretty much all of the reports we have to go off of have been from the Sixers. It just sounds like there could be a lot we don't know.

[Nuntius]

You said that you've had mental health issues in the past so I have to ask. When you were seeing a mental health professional for that, did your employer vet them? Was your employer reading that mental health professional's reports and getting constant updates on your progress?

[...]

Issues like this one do not only affect the NBA.

would you be this sympathetic if it was a non performing CEO refusing to work, mentioning mental health issues, givibg no details and demanding to get paid in the process?
This is much closer to the Simmons situation.

Anyway, I would find completely normal if I am calling myself sick for an extended time that the employer would ask for proof, before continuing to pay me.
I have worked in many places in Europe, this is how it works.
I find it very unlikely that in the US the worker can demand the money without any proof.

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1) I'm not sure why you keep mentioning the "demand getting paid part". My argument on this thread has not focused on that part at all. It has focused on whether an employer should have the right to their employee's sensitive medical information and the way that mental health is treated in society, especially among in sports cycles.

2) If a CEO was in a similar situation (his bosses disputing his mental health issues and so on) then, yeah, I'd probably be sympathetic.

[BigGargamel]

The Sixers having the best record in the East is the worst thing that could happen to Morey. They're literally better without him. He has zero trade value. Dude just needs to accept it, grab a McCollum type and move on. This team is still in it's prime and the East is wide open. Kill the distraction.

[K3nny Pow3rs]

The Sixers having the best record in the East is the worst thing that could happen to Morey. They're literally better without him. He has zero trade value. Dude just needs to accept it, grab a McCollum type and move on. This team is still in it's prime and the East is wide open. Kill the distraction.

Actually Philly finished 1st in the East last season, and I'm not convinced they'll finish 1st in the East this season....

[Nuntius]

My strong opinion is that employees who are in a weak position must be protected by regulatory bodies to prevent the employers, that are usually in a stronger position and on their own might lack the negotating power, to take advantage of them. This is also how it works where I come from, not so much in the US, to my knowledge.

I will say that this is 100% antithetical to the positions that you've taken so far in this thread but it's definitely good to see. Glad to know that we agree on this since that's pretty basic stuff.

This is not Simmons case: he's not a weak part, he has a very strong NBPA behind, he's making ridiculous money. He's not the kind of employee that requires extra protections, this is a business relationship between two very strong parties.

He may not be a weak part in a vacuum but we're not talking about something that happens in a vacuum. We are talking about a dispute between a billion-dollar organization and one of its millionaire athletes. Let's not pretend that the parties in an equal position here. They aren't. The Sixers are absolutely in a much stronger position than Simmons and they have already taken advantage of that position in the past (see the Markelle Fultz situation). Simmons may not be a weak part per se but he's definitely the weaker part in this dispute.

Why I think this is not legit?
Because he's doing his best to send this message, by the way all this evolved.
He didn't come up, ask for help, trying to go back to contribute to his company.
No, he first stated he was not going to play, his agent threatened the Sixers in case the refused to keep paying, he came back when he stopped seeing the money, he trained with the phone in his trousers, he got suspended, only then he claimed mental health issues, refused to collaborate in any way and still demanded to get all the money in the process.
Sorry if I am calling BS on this, I can't be 100% sure (we never are, on anything) nut this is VERY FAR from a 50/50 situation.

The underlined part is incorrect, though. Your timeline is wrong. According to the reports, Simmons has sought mental health help from the NBPA ever since this summer. This preceded a lot of the incidents that you mentioned (such as the practice incident and most, if not all, of the fines). So, no, Simmons didn't claim mental health issues after he stopped seeing the money. He has claimed those issues for a long time now (some Sixers fans are claiming that these issues started before even the Hawks series) but we just didn't know about it until recently.