76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[SharpyShuffle]

I am firmly against Ben Simmons on this topic. I find the argument that people are quick to take the side of the corporations not valid here. The players themselves have a representative body that dictates the rules of engagement. And unlike most other regulatory practices they meet and change these up every few years through a collaborative process. I find its absolute nonsense that a player would not follow these established guidelines. Again, if the guidelines were different all good too. I think there’s this overarching attitude in America of protest / unfairness but not that same energy toward the slow boring work of let’s put systems / rules in place through a democratic process…and then let’s follow those rules. If I was a player in the NBA i’d hope they’d take away 100% of his salary or give it to charity or something.

Follow the rules and get paid or don’t follow the rules and don’t get paid. It’s not more complex than that. If the rules suck make sure they get changed next time around…cuz the players have plenty of power in shaping the way the league operates.

what simmons, and on a broader scale, klutch sports have done is absolutely bad for nba players and the nbapa. there's no way the owners are not going to use this and fight for contracts and terms that make it harder for players to get guaranteed money in the next cba.

This isn't bad for the union. Only stars have the ability to pull this kind of crap, and only a tiny handful of players are considered stars.

The owners aren't going to come out and say "we want to vastly reduce the amount of guaranteed money" because that's a pointless war to fight, and they don't care about situations where a team pays a guy $8m a year and he gets lazy and sucks. They care about superstars flexing their muscles, which means very little to the average player. The owners will try to target guys like Simmons, Kawhi, AD and Harden.

This either won't impact the nba 99% (the 99% of the.00001% lol) or will benefit them if the union can get something in exchange for sacrificing the superstars

[Quattro]

“Cutting your losses” means giving into the player and his trade demand with 4 years left on the contract. I cannot stress how wrong that position is. Its about the big picture here. Say Luka as a hypo after signing his max demands a trade, “Cutting your losses” means giving in to the player? There is a huge difference between one year on the contract and 4 years on a just signed max extension.

Just make it a learning experience & move on. Organizations have to get used to the idea that players power is tremendous nowadays, you gotta approach them in multi-faceted ways & not just get lucky that they signed a contract. You need to have and uphold mutual respect, you need to communicate well, support your player when they're down, etc etc. Almost 20 years ago Vince demanded his way out of Toronto and was traded for Mourning who then refused to play for the team. The precedent has already been set but since that time the Raptors didn't just complain & be stubborn but instead found a way to get competent people in. Philly needs to do the same, let the players squabble but the coach, GM need to be peacekeepers, need to help players feel respected & supported. If they gotta address things say it to the player directly & don't go through the media.
Forget the precedence of contracts, contracts are not some magical thing that ensure things stay as they are. Sure they make negotiations easier but it shouldn't surprise people when a superstar that's been thrown under the bus by their own team wants out, these people become great because of their super ego's, if you diss them that openly you better be a master communicator afterwords because that stuff won't just solve itself. Imo Doc was an idiot for kicking Simmons out of practice the first day he came back too, ease people into it don't just place demand on demand when they're already starting to submit.

The difference is that Raptors team was bad and the Sixers were the top seed in the East with him and are currently in first without him.

Also that Raptors team went like 12 years after trading Carter before they won a playoff round again I'm not sure how that's a model a team would want to follow.

People are just taking it as a given that there's some sort of built in advantage to just getting rid of him and I'm not seeing how that is the case. Morey is gonna wait for the right trade that improves the team (it's harder to improve a good team instead of a bad team), the team will play pretty well in the meantime, Ben can join them if he wants and if he wants to play dumb games he's not getting paid. (And obviously if they're not going to pay him they have to give a reason and it will be leaked to Woj because that's how things work.) Not seeing the problem here.

The problem is that nobody met Morey’s asking price in the summer and now Simmons apparently has issues that are preventing him from getting on the court and may continue to be issues going forward for any team that trades for him. His value is only going down and at this point it’s hard to see him getting back on the court for this team and playing at a level that erases all this.

Morey shouldn’t have held out for so much imo. He’s just not going to get that kind of price for this guy.

[Sixerscan]

Just make it a learning experience & move on. Organizations have to get used to the idea that players power is tremendous nowadays, you gotta approach them in multi-faceted ways & not just get lucky that they signed a contract. You need to have and uphold mutual respect, you need to communicate well, support your player when they're down, etc etc. Almost 20 years ago Vince demanded his way out of Toronto and was traded for Mourning who then refused to play for the team. The precedent has already been set but since that time the Raptors didn't just complain & be stubborn but instead found a way to get competent people in. Philly needs to do the same, let the players squabble but the coach, GM need to be peacekeepers, need to help players feel respected & supported. If they gotta address things say it to the player directly & don't go through the media.
Forget the precedence of contracts, contracts are not some magical thing that ensure things stay as they are. Sure they make negotiations easier but it shouldn't surprise people when a superstar that's been thrown under the bus by their own team wants out, these people become great because of their super ego's, if you diss them that openly you better be a master communicator afterwords because that stuff won't just solve itself. Imo Doc was an idiot for kicking Simmons out of practice the first day he came back too, ease people into it don't just place demand on demand when they're already starting to submit.

The difference is that Raptors team was bad and the Sixers were the top seed in the East with him and are currently in first without him.

Also that Raptors team went like 12 years after trading Carter before they won a playoff round again I'm not sure how that's a model a team would want to follow.

People are just taking it as a given that there's some sort of built in advantage to just getting rid of him and I'm not seeing how that is the case. Morey is gonna wait for the right trade that improves the team (it's harder to improve a good team instead of a bad team), the team will play pretty well in the meantime, Ben can join them if he wants and if he wants to play dumb games he's not getting paid. (And obviously if they're not going to pay him they have to give a reason and it will be leaked to Woj because that's how things work.) Not seeing the problem here.

The problem is that nobody met Morey’s asking price in the summer and now Simmons apparently has issues that are preventing him from getting on the court and may continue to be issues going forward for any team that trades for him. His value is only going down and at this point it’s hard to see him getting back on the court for this team and playing at a level that erases all this.

Morey shouldn’t have held out for so much imo. He’s just not going to get that kind of price for this guy.

I have no idea how much his trade value has shifted. To the extent it's gone lower, well the offers already weren't making the team better so I'm not sure what that changes.

Don't forget that the trade value (to the extent such a thing exists) of the rest of the players in the league probably doesn't stay static either. Every offseason teams with bad rosters convince themselves they've got a shot only to get a reality check once they start playing games.

[rzzzzz]

Hate to see the team in such disarray.

Read on Twitter

[jstross]

Sixers looking pretty good with all the new pieces albeit a pretty soft schedule so far. Trading Simmons for a bunch of role players doesn't move the needle at all. So, this will go on until Ben is willing to play for the Sixers or he never plays in the NBA again.
I just don't see any middle ground here, but who knows. Not sold on Doc at all.

Morey lacks flexibility tbh, ready to die on this molehill with Simmons rather than moving on. Sucks for the league but hey Philly hope you learn from it, don't let half your team rip on your superstar if you actually want to keep him, give him support when he was still in your good favour not after when the foundation of trust is lost.
And Doc's overrated, dealing with old school players that welcome that strict attitude worked, but todays world is different, Doc's not really all that ready for this NBA.

[Zombiesonics]

I started out the year lambasting morey for not getting rid of simmons and avoiding all this drama, but man the sixers really do look great without him and dont seem to need any more 'small' pieces to help fill out the rotation. Someone ITT mentioned korkmaz and niang are just better than mcdaniels and beasely and i couldn't agree more... I think morey has played his hand perfectly it seems.

Now, eventually he has to trade simmons because clearly he just doesn't fit with the team. You could just turn him into a bench piece and sit him in closing time if he decides he is mentally ready to not lose more money. I've always felt FVV would be an awesome fit to run the 1, someone of that caliber.

[Nate505]

Just make it a learning experience & move on. Organizations have to get used to the idea that players power is tremendous nowadays, you gotta approach them in multi-faceted ways & not just get lucky that they signed a contract. You need to have and uphold mutual respect, you need to communicate well, support your player when they're down, etc etc. Almost 20 years ago Vince demanded his way out of Toronto and was traded for Mourning who then refused to play for the team. The precedent has already been set but since that time the Raptors didn't just complain & be stubborn but instead found a way to get competent people in. Philly needs to do the same, let the players squabble but the coach, GM need to be peacekeepers, need to help players feel respected & supported. If they gotta address things say it to the player directly & don't go through the media.
Forget the precedence of contracts, contracts are not some magical thing that ensure things stay as they are. Sure they make negotiations easier but it shouldn't surprise people when a superstar that's been thrown under the bus by their own team wants out, these people become great because of their super ego's, if you diss them that openly you better be a master communicator afterwords because that stuff won't just solve itself. Imo Doc was an idiot for kicking Simmons out of practice the first day he came back too, ease people into it don't just place demand on demand when they're already starting to submit.

They have to get used to the idea that a players power is so tremendous that they won't honor contracts and expect to get paid for not honoring their contract?

Why on earth would anyone get used to that idea?

[khufure]

Hate to see the team in such disarray.

Read on Twitter

Yo dumping water/ice on the coach is supposed to be for winning playoff games. Embiid is such a clown lul

[bebopdeluxe]

Morey lacks flexibility tbh, ready to die on this molehill with Simmons rather than moving on. Sucks for the league but hey Philly hope you learn from it, don't let half your team rip on your superstar if you actually want to keep him, give him support when he was still in your good favour not after when the foundation of trust is lost.
And Doc's overrated, dealing with old school players that welcome that strict attitude worked, but todays world is different, Doc's not really all that ready for this NBA.

"Don't let half the team rip on your superstar..."

I WANT TO SEE THE F'N RECEIPTS FOR THIS JABRONI ASSERTION.

You want to be a hater, that's fine, bro. But weak-sauce ish and clown posts WILL be duly noted as such.

[bebopdeluxe]

I am firmly against Ben Simmons on this topic. I find the argument that people are quick to take the side of the corporations not valid here. The players themselves have a representative body that dictates the rules of engagement. And unlike most other regulatory practices they meet and change these up every few years through a collaborative process. I find its absolute nonsense that a player would not follow these established guidelines. Again, if the guidelines were different all good too. I think there’s this overarching attitude in America of protest / unfairness but not that same energy toward the slow boring work of let’s put systems / rules in place through a democratic process…and then let’s follow those rules. If I was a player in the NBA i’d hope they’d take away 100% of his salary or give it to charity or something.

Follow the rules and get paid or don’t follow the rules and don’t get paid. It’s not more complex than that. If the rules suck make sure they get changed next time around…cuz the players have plenty of power in shaping the way the league operates.

what simmons, and on a broader scale, klutch sports have done is absolutely bad for nba players and the nbapa. there's no way the owners are not going to use this and fight for contracts and terms that make it harder for players to get guaranteed money in the next cba.

This times eleventy billion. The NBA PA fully understands how "The Ben Simmons Situation" could lead to a lockout - and a lockout where the public will be squarely on the side of the owners if they want to get rid of fully guaranteed contracts because of this ish.

[bebopdeluxe]

Houston wanted to rebuild and got what the wanted.
Philly doesn't want to rebuild, that's the difference.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

The real question is how does Embiid feel about it? If you play chicken with Ben and don't trade him and he doesn't play again then isn't Embiid going to be pretty upset? I'm sure if Embiid thinks management is more interested in this personal war with Ben Simmons than they are with helping him win a title he's going to look to leave too.

Embiid and Morey are tight. Embiid is on the record that getting picks or prospects in return wouldn't really help them win right now and he is fine letting this play out. We'll see if he changes his mind because Sixerland does revolve around him. If something happens its probably because he wanted it to happen or was becoming unhappy.

AS of today, Embiid is THRILLED with this team. They have the best record in the East, and the #1 offensive efficiency in the league. Teams are now getting punished for doubling Embiid.

I hope Ben and Klutch are enjoying that escrow account getting smaller and smaller.

[bebopdeluxe]

Hate to see the team in such disarray.

Read on Twitter

Yo dumping water/ice on the coach is supposed to be for winning playoff games. Embiid is such a clown lul

Really? Dude just got his 1,000th win - only the 10th guy in the history of the league to do it. And you rag on them for celebrating it?

Even by RealGM standards, this is...an interesting take.

[bebopdeluxe]

I am firmly against Ben Simmons on this topic. I find the argument that people are quick to take the side of the corporations not valid here. The players themselves have a representative body that dictates the rules of engagement. And unlike most other regulatory practices they meet and change these up every few years through a collaborative process. I find its absolute nonsense that a player would not follow these established guidelines. Again, if the guidelines were different all good too. I think there’s this overarching attitude in America of protest / unfairness but not that same energy toward the slow boring work of let’s put systems / rules in place through a democratic process…and then let’s follow those rules. If I was a player in the NBA i’d hope they’d take away 100% of his salary or give it to charity or something.

Follow the rules and get paid or don’t follow the rules and don’t get paid. It’s not more complex than that. If the rules suck make sure they get changed next time around…cuz the players have plenty of power in shaping the way the league operates.

what simmons, and on a broader scale, klutch sports have done is absolutely bad for nba players and the nbapa. there's no way the owners are not going to use this and fight for contracts and terms that make it harder for players to get guaranteed money in the next cba.

This isn't bad for the union. Only stars have the ability to pull this kind of crap, and only a tiny handful of players are considered stars.

The owners aren't going to come out and say "we want to vastly reduce the amount of guaranteed money" because that's a pointless war to fight, and they don't care about situations where a team pays a guy $8m a year and he gets lazy and sucks. They care about superstars flexing their muscles, which means very little to the average player. The owners will try to target guys like Simmons, Kawhi, AD and Harden.

This either won't impact the nba 99% (the 99% of the.00001% lol) or will benefit them if the union can get something in exchange for sacrificing the superstars

I understand that the issues that relate to Simmons may not matter to the rank-and-file, but if the owners lock the players out, those rank-and-file guys who WILL NOT BE PAID during a lockout are not going to be happy that there is nothing in the account on the 1st and 15th because of FREAKING BEN SIMMONS. This isn't GIannis, Steph or KD who would be the poster boy for the lockout. It is BEN FREAKING SIMMONS.

If you think the ran-and-file will be cool with a lockout because of Ben Simmons, you are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I think they will be FURIOUS.

[bebopdeluxe]

Just make it a learning experience & move on. Organizations have to get used to the idea that players power is tremendous nowadays, you gotta approach them in multi-faceted ways & not just get lucky that they signed a contract. You need to have and uphold mutual respect, you need to communicate well, support your player when they're down, etc etc. Almost 20 years ago Vince demanded his way out of Toronto and was traded for Mourning who then refused to play for the team. The precedent has already been set but since that time the Raptors didn't just complain & be stubborn but instead found a way to get competent people in. Philly needs to do the same, let the players squabble but the coach, GM need to be peacekeepers, need to help players feel respected & supported. If they gotta address things say it to the player directly & don't go through the media.
Forget the precedence of contracts, contracts are not some magical thing that ensure things stay as they are. Sure they make negotiations easier but it shouldn't surprise people when a superstar that's been thrown under the bus by their own team wants out, these people become great because of their super ego's, if you diss them that openly you better be a master communicator afterwords because that stuff won't just solve itself. Imo Doc was an idiot for kicking Simmons out of practice the first day he came back too, ease people into it don't just place demand on demand when they're already starting to submit.

They have to get used to the idea that a players power is so tremendous that they won't honor contracts and expect to get paid for not honoring their contract?

Why on earth would anyone get used to that idea?

Answer: they won't.

In the war for public opinion during the lockout, the owner's ability to put Ben Simmons on a poster will be SO MUCH WIN for them.

[BHF]

The 76ers are in **** if Embiid goes down, not sure what they are waiting for, trade Simmons for some assets and try to compete or risk Embiid getting injured and suck again for the next 5 years.

any team is screwed if their star goes down bro. If they even somehow get Dame for Simmons Embiid getting hurt still ruins the season so not real sure what your point is lol. If your top 10 player isnt playing then you are screwed, duh.

And out of all the top 10 players none of them have Embiid's knees and will probably last longer including LBJ

[Nuntius]

He should be free to choose who he wants, but the team should be able to vet his choice and make sure he’s actually going to try and make progress in a good faith way. It’s their money on the line… they shouldn’t have to pay someone when they aren’t working for them.

You said that you've had mental health issues in the past so I have to ask. When you were seeing a mental health professional for that, did your employer vet them? Was your employer reading that mental health professional's reports and getting constant updates on your progress?

If the answer to the questions above is yes, how did that make you feel? Didn't you feel that it was an intrusion of your privacy? Wouldn't you prefer it if your workplace had a strong union that prevented your employer from intruding on what is an extremely sensitive subject?

At the end of the day, this is a discussion about worker's rights for me. It is about the right of a worker/employee keeping sensitive information, like mental health, private. It is about the employer not having any kind of oversight and unfettered access over their employee's medical information.

Do not for a second think that what happens in the NBA cannot happen elsewhere. If NBA organizations get to play fast and loose with worker's rights like that then what is stopping others from doing so? If the Sixers can freely violate Ben Simmons' medical privacy because we don't like Ben then what is stopping your boss from doing so? They can easily say that since NBA teams, huge organizations worth billions of dollars, can do it then he should also be allowed to do it. And in the workplaces that this stuff already happens, it only helps to legitimize their practices. It sets a horrible precedent that can harm people. Why allow it? Just because we believe that Ben is entitled?

Situations like this one affect a lot more than just the NBA. We should be cognizant of that fact.

Issues like this one do not only affect the NBA.

My mental health issues and my employment were two completely separate issues. My mental health issues did not result in me not being able to continue my employment, so literally any answer to that questions would be purely speculative.

If my mental health issues were a direct result of me not being able to work, I would expect the same scrutiny as I would get if it were workman’s comp and I was collecting money on that while injured. If the company has reason to believe I was being disingenuous about my claims and wanted proof, I would be happy to provide any evidence requested because I would personally never be someone who would actively deceive my company for profit.

In other words, the situation that you went through is completely different with Simmons' situation. Simmons claims that he is not mentally ready to play for the Sixers which seems to indicate that his mental health issues are at least related to his work environment. Yours weren't so we're speaking about a different situation here.

As for the second paragraph. Why would an injured worker who is receiving workman's comp would be under any scrutiny? I saw someone earlier in the thread say that it's not uncommon for companies to sic PI's to check whether someone receiving such compensation is injured. To me, that sounds absolutely **** up. I know that worker's rights are not in a great spot in the US but that's just extreme to me. When a worker gets injured (physically or mentally) due to their work then the company should reimburse him. Period. To doubt your workers like that and to try to portray them as liars so you can get out of paying them what they are legitimately owned sounds heinous. I don't see how people can stand for these practices.

[Nuntius]

would you be this sympathetic if it was a non performing CEO refusing to work, mentioning mental health issues, givibg no details and demanding to get paid in the process?
This is much closer to the Simmons situation.

Anyway, I would find completely normal if I am calling myself sick for an extended time that the employer would ask for proof, before continuing to pay me.
I have worked in many places in Europe, this is how it works.
I find it very unlikely that in the US the worker can demand the money without any proof.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

1) I'm not sure why you keep mentioning the "demand getting paid part". My argument on this thread has not focused on that part at all. It has focused on whether an employer should have the right to their employee's sensitive medical information and the way that mental health is treated in society, especially among in sports cycles.

2) If a CEO was in a similar situation (his bosses disputing his mental health issues and so on) then, yeah, I'd probably be sympathetic.

Because had Simmons not demanded to get paid there would have been no discussion. What thw Sixers could have done to him, then?

To be honest, it would have made his claims more credible to me as well, but that's not really relevant to anybody but myself.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Sure, Simmons has asked to get paid but that's not actually related to the broader discussion that we've had in here about whether an employer should have access to their employee's medical information and about mental health. It was the spark that ignited the discussion, yes, but it doesn't affect the arguments that I've made all that much. I'd be saying the exact same stuff if he never asked to get paid as well

[Archerbro]

Having to meet with team physician is harming Simmons' mental health.

Don't see Sixers ever winning this one in arbitration if challenged. They cannot prove that Simmons is not suffering from mental health issues.

Of course, I do think Simmons / Rich Paul is faking this whole mental health episode.

have to make a concerted effort, there's definitely a legal argument for both sides

[Archerbro]

Calling Rich Pauls bluff is the right move. It also now ensures that Morey will never sign another Rich Paul client because he played hardball and didn't gift wrap him to California.

i dont really know if Rich Paul will have the power he does when lebron is out. that's just my prediction, even with his current clients at hand.

[Nuntius]

It’s pretty well documented that Royce White has issues with flying and wanted special accommodations without playing a single game which you are ignoring.

Actually, I mentioned both his fear of flying and the fact that he was a rookie. Not sure why you're saying that I'm ignoring any of the two. I'm not.

Not sure if it is really realistic to expect the league to be able to put a league wide mental health policy/protocol on the whim of an NBA rookie who has never played a game.

Two issues with that:

1) Mental health issues are not a "whim". They are a legitimate medical injury. Treating them like a "whim" is exactly why nothing gets done in this area. Would you say that a player who requested crutches because he had broken his foot was acting on a "whim"? No, of course not. Mental health isn't any different and yet it keeps being treated like that.

2) The league should already have a league-wide mental health protocol, long before White was drafted. Not for White, in particular, but for every other or other personnel employed by the league. That's the point here. White wasn't asking for a personal exception for him. He was asking for something that should have already existed in the league.

Practically these things take time. NBA would need to hire/consult with health care professionals, player reps and owners and do their own studies

Did they? Did they hire/consult with health care professionals, player reps and owners and did their own studies? If that stuff didn't happen then the "these things take time" part is nothing but an excuse.

Afaik, NBA only started taking some steps after DeRozan and Love spoke out about their own struggles. In my opinion, that was way too damn late. It shouldn't take a star speaking out for the NBA to do something about this issue. They are a billion-dollar organization for crying out loud.

I think you use the mental health issue like a bludgeon instead of a nuanced approach. I have personal experience seeing people navigating careers who suffer from mental health issues. Having a mental health issue doesn’t preclude you from the responsibilities of fulfilling your job duties.

Practically a player has to make it to the arena to participate in games. If they cannot do that maybe they shouldn’t play in the NBA.

When employers keep ignoring the mental health of their employees then, yeah, I'm going to use it like a bludgeon. When a worker's rights are being violated by their employer, there isn't much place for nuance, imo.