LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

[Strepbacter]

LeBum spent his entire prime in a historically poor conference. This thread is ridiculous.

[dcstanley]

And what is your conclusion from the statement that LeBron's teams were a step below in 2014, 2017, and 2018 against 3 of the GOAT teams? That it somehow reflects his performance? Do you think Jordan would have done better, let alone win any of them? Jordan was just going to make the corpse of the 2014 Heat play better defense with some curse words and his will to win? Yes, I'm sure that would cover most or all of the 16 ppg they lost by! Maybe he can teach Love a few things and make him a plus on defense and not completely neutered by Green and KD in the Finals too.

I have a theory that the more you dumb down and simplify the GOAT debate, the more impressive Jordan looks. His career is just too storybook and does everything that your average fan enjoys. It could be part of the reason why there is such hesitancy to even put LeBron on the same tier with him in mass media/among your average fan despite the evidence that at the very least puts them in the same class.

In a vacuum, Lebron has had some of the most talented teams ever assembled...on paper these are ATG teams. But when it comes time for them to perform, they do not live up to their individual talents.

Name some of these underperforming teams that were uber talented. The 2011 Heat? Okay, but the roster was constructed with three great players and a bunch of replacement level players. I don't think you can point to any other team Lebron was on that underperformed. You can certainly point to a few that overperformed (2007 Cavs, 2009 Cavs, 2018 Cavs) but I have hard time believing that even the most irrational Lebron hater would think that the 2015-2018 Cavs underperformed by reaching the finals every season and going 1-3 against the best team of all time.

[G35]

And what is your conclusion from the statement that LeBron's teams were a step below in 2014, 2017, and 2018 against 3 of the GOAT teams? That it somehow reflects his performance? Do you think Jordan would have done better, let alone win any of them? Jordan was just going to make the corpse of the 2014 Heat play better defense with some curse words and his will to win? Yes, I'm sure that would cover most or all of the 16 ppg they lost by! Maybe he can teach Love a few things and make him a plus on defense and not completely neutered by Green and KD in the Finals too.

I have a theory that the more you dumb down and simplify the GOAT debate, the more impressive Jordan looks. His career is just too storybook and does everything that your average fan enjoys. It could be part of the reason why there is such hesitancy to even put LeBron on the same tier with him in mass media/among your average fan despite the evidence that at the very least puts them in the same class.

In a vacuum, Lebron has had some of the most talented teams ever assembled...on paper these are ATG teams. But when it comes time for them to perform, they do not live up to their individual talents.

Name some of these underperforming teams that were uber talented. The 2011 Heat? Okay, but the roster was constructed with three great players and a bunch of replacement level players. I don't think you can point to any other team Lebron was on that underperformed. You can certainly point to a few that overperformed (2007 Cavs, 2009 Cavs, 2018 Cavs) but I have hard time believing that even the most irrational Lebron hater would think that the 2015-2018 Cavs underperformed by reaching the finals every season and going 1-3 against the best team of all time.

In 2014 Lebron was 1st team All NBA...Kevin Love was 2nd team All NBA. Kyrie was a rising young star, who fulfilled that promise.

How many teams have had a 1st team and 2nd team All NBA player to start a season?

In 2015 this is the breakdown of All NBA players by conference:

1st team
G - Curry (West)
G - Harden (West)
F- Lebron (East)
F - AD (West)
C- Marc Gasol (West)

2nd team
G - CP3 (West)
G - Westbrook (West)
F - Aldridge (West)
F - Pau Gasol (East)
C - Cousins (West)

3rd team
G - Kyrie (East)
G - Klay Thompson (West)
F - Duncan (West)
F - Griffin (West)
C - Jordan (West)

12 of the 15 All NBA positions were held by Western Conference players. Two of the three Eastern conference players were on Cleveland (Lebron and Kyrie), the last position was held by Pau Gasol someone who was past his prime.

If you have two All NBA players and 90% of the rest of the conference has zero All NBA players, if you can't get to the finals something is very wrong.

That year the Clippers had three All NBA players in CP3, Blake Griffin, and Deandre Jordan...they did not make it to the finals. But I bet if the Clippers and Cavalier switched conferences it would be the Clippers who would be in the finals and the Cavaliers would not have made it.

Lebron's conference competition was subpar and that is not debatable......

[VanWest82]

And what is your conclusion from the statement that LeBron's teams were a step below in 2014, 2017, and 2018 against 3 of the GOAT teams? That it somehow reflects his performance? Do you think Jordan would have done better, let alone win any of them? Jordan was just going to make the corpse of the 2014 Heat play better defense with some curse words and his will to win? Yes, I'm sure that would cover most or all of the 16 ppg they lost by! Maybe he can teach Love a few things and make him a plus on defense and not completely neutered by Green and KD in the Finals too.

I have a theory that the more you dumb down and simplify the GOAT debate, the more impressive Jordan looks. His career is just too storybook and does everything that your average fan enjoys. It could be part of the reason why there is such hesitancy to even put LeBron on the same tier with him in mass media/among your average fan despite the evidence that at the very least puts them in the same class.

In a vacuum, Lebron has had some of the most talented teams ever assembled...on paper these are ATG teams. But when it comes time for them to perform, they do not live up to their individual talents.

Name some of these underperforming teams that were uber talented. The 2011 Heat? Okay, but the roster was constructed with three great players and a bunch of replacement level players. I don't think you can point to any other team Lebron was on that underperformed. You can certainly point to a few that overperformed (2007 Cavs, 2009 Cavs, 2018 Cavs) but I have hard time believing that even the most irrational Lebron hater would think that the 2015-2018 Cavs underperformed by reaching the finals every season and going 1-3 against the best team of all time.

Those Cavs teams (15-18) objectively underperformed every single year in the regular season (they all missed their preseason vegas over/under win totals). Yes, they all reached the Finals and Lebron was excellent in those playoff runs but his competition wasn't. The idea that MJ wouldn't have also led those teams to the Finals against that level of competition seems pretty suspect. It's reasonable to think he would've led them to more than 51 or 53 wins or whatever.

[dcstanley]

In a vacuum, Lebron has had some of the most talented teams ever assembled...on paper these are ATG teams. But when it comes time for them to perform, they do not live up to their individual talents.

Name some of these underperforming teams that were uber talented. The 2011 Heat? Okay, but the roster was constructed with three great players and a bunch of replacement level players. I don't think you can point to any other team Lebron was on that underperformed. You can certainly point to a few that overperformed (2007 Cavs, 2009 Cavs, 2018 Cavs) but I have hard time believing that even the most irrational Lebron hater would think that the 2015-2018 Cavs underperformed by reaching the finals every season and going 1-3 against the best team of all time.

In 2014 Lebron was 1st team All NBA...Kevin Love was 2nd team All NBA. Kyrie was a rising young star, who fulfilled that promise.

How many teams have had a 1st team and 2nd team All NBA player to start a season?

In 2015 this is the breakdown of All NBA players by conference:

1st team
G - Curry (West)
G - Harden (West)
F- Lebron (East)
F - AD (West)
C- Marc Gasol (West)

2nd team
G - CP3 (West)
G - Westbrook (West)
F - Aldridge (West)
F - Pau Gasol (East)
C - Cousins (West)

3rd team
G - Kyrie (East)
G - Klay Thompson (West)
F - Duncan (West)
F - Griffin (West)
C - Jordan (West)

12 of the 15 All NBA positions were held by Western Conference players. Two of the three Eastern conference players were on Cleveland (Lebron and Kyrie), the last position was held by Pau Gasol someone who was past his prime.

If you have two All NBA players and 90% of the rest of the conference has zero All NBA players, if you can't get to the finals something is very wrong.

That year the Clippers had three All NBA players in CP3, Blake Griffin, and Deandre Jordan...they did not make it to the finals. But I bet if the Clippers and Cavalier switched conferences it would be the Clippers who would be in the finals and the Cavaliers would not have made it.

Lebron's conference competition was subpar and that is not debatable......

How many playoff games did Love and Kyrie play that season? Love missed all but 4 games of the postseason and Kyrie suffered an injury in the conference semis that limited his impact, missed half of the conference finals, and missed all of the finals. The Cavs still made quick work of the conference. Inferior competition? Sure, but Lebron played most of that postseason with his two best teammates dealing with injuries.

The Cavs probably don't reach the finals in the Western conference if Love dislocates his shoulder in the first round and Dellavadova features more prominently because of injuries to Kyrie. If you can guarantee health, however, they would likely be the favorites to win the championship. How exactly does this particular season support your theory that Lebron teams underperform their talent level?

[G35]

Name some of these underperforming teams that were uber talented. The 2011 Heat? Okay, but the roster was constructed with three great players and a bunch of replacement level players. I don't think you can point to any other team Lebron was on that underperformed. You can certainly point to a few that overperformed (2007 Cavs, 2009 Cavs, 2018 Cavs) but I have hard time believing that even the most irrational Lebron hater would think that the 2015-2018 Cavs underperformed by reaching the finals every season and going 1-3 against the best team of all time.

In 2014 Lebron was 1st team All NBA...Kevin Love was 2nd team All NBA. Kyrie was a rising young star, who fulfilled that promise.

How many teams have had a 1st team and 2nd team All NBA player to start a season?

In 2015 this is the breakdown of All NBA players by conference:

1st team
G - Curry (West)
G - Harden (West)
F- Lebron (East)
F - AD (West)
C- Marc Gasol (West)

2nd team
G - CP3 (West)
G - Westbrook (West)
F - Aldridge (West)
F - Pau Gasol (East)
C - Cousins (West)

3rd team
G - Kyrie (East)
G - Klay Thompson (West)
F - Duncan (West)
F - Griffin (West)
C - Jordan (West)

12 of the 15 All NBA positions were held by Western Conference players. Two of the three Eastern conference players were on Cleveland (Lebron and Kyrie), the last position was held by Pau Gasol someone who was past his prime.

If you have two All NBA players and 90% of the rest of the conference has zero All NBA players, if you can't get to the finals something is very wrong.

That year the Clippers had three All NBA players in CP3, Blake Griffin, and Deandre Jordan...they did not make it to the finals. But I bet if the Clippers and Cavalier switched conferences it would be the Clippers who would be in the finals and the Cavaliers would not have made it.

Lebron's conference competition was subpar and that is not debatable......

How many playoff games did Love and Kyrie play that season? Love missed all but 4 games of the postseason and Kyrie suffered an injury in the conference semis that limited his impact, missed half of the conference finals, and missed all of the finals. The Cavs still made quick work of the conference. Inferior competition? Sure, but Lebron played most of that postseason with his two best teammates dealing with injuries.

The Cavs probably don't reach the finals in the Western conference if Love dislocates his shoulder in the first round and Dellavadova features more prominently because of injuries to Kyrie. If you can guarantee health, however, they would likely be the favorites to win the championship. How exactly does this particular season support your theory that Lebron teams underperform their talent level?

These "what if's" are exactly what I'm talking about.

I put injuries #1 as the #1 obstacle to a team getting the finals and winning. Why should Lebron be given any favors because injuries? Why do we care about injuries? That is part of the equation.

2002 - Tim Duncan injured
2003 - Dirk Nowitzki injured
2004 - Karl Malone injured, Sam Cassell injured
2005 - Kobe Bryant injured, Joe Johnson injured, Amare Stoudemire, Boris Diaw suspended
2006 - Amare Stoudemire injured
2008 - Trevor Ariza, Andrew Bynum injured
2009 - Kevin Garnett injured, Yao Ming injured
2010 - Kevin Garnett injured, Kendrick Perkins injured
2012 - Derrick Rose injured

Lets let 3rd parties speak about injuries and how it affects the playoffs:

https://www.sportscasting.com/most-significant-nba-playoffs-injuries-all-time/

Injuries are an unpleasant byproduct of competition. But one unfortunate twist of fate can undo a season’s worth of work when that injury happens during the NBA Playoffs. The 2021 playoffs are no different. Joel Embiid is nursing a torn meniscus into the conference semifinals for the Philadelphia 76ers. A groin injury to Anthony Davis hastened a quick end to the Los Angeles Lakers’ title defense.

NBA history is full of instances in which good and sometimes great teams dropped out of the playoffs too quickly because one or more of their stars went down to injury.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1179659-10-most-crushing-nba-playoff-injuries-of-all-time

We all know the story.

A team is cruising along, minding their own business on the way to the title when all of a sudden—crack!

All of their hopes and dreams of dominance are thwarted by one major injury. It has happened plenty of times in the past, and it happened again this year.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/news/nba-pm-historys-worst-playoff-injuries/

After watching two games of the Western Conference Finals, it has become pretty clear that Oklahoma City is not the same team, especially defensively, without star big man Serge Ibaka. With him, OKC may have been on their way to NBA Finals redemption and an eagerly-anticipated showdown between Kevin Durant and LeBron James. Without Ibaka, they just look like burnt toast.

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/the-last-20-nba-champions-if-there-were-no-playoff-injuries-nets-in-2021-rockets-in-2018

Injuries are an unfortunate part of the NBA game. If there were never any injuries, the entire course of NBA history would have been changed. That is why former players and pundits truly believe that health is the single most important factor in teams' title chances every year. Even the team with the most talent cannot achieve greatness without the health of their best players.

That is why repeating is twice as hard as winning a title and threepeating is exponentially harder than that. Jordan and the Bulls were able to withstand injuries to threepeat twice.

How were they able to do that? Is there any credit given to the Bulls for that...or are you only going to look to make excuses for Lebron's teams that got injured? Which then goes back to...are players really better now...or were they better prepared and in shape than players now.

You can't have it both ways. Why weren't Lebron's teams able to withstand injuries...because every team has them.....

[SNPA]

LeBum spent his entire prime in a historically poor conference. This thread is ridiculous.

This is the first Strepbacter post I’ve ever agreed with. It’s true.

[ty 4191]

LeBum spent his entire prime in a historically poor conference. This thread is ridiculous.

Lebron played in a historically awful conference 2004-2018. The East had an overall winning percentage against the West of .431 from 2004-2018.

Jordan played in a historically weak league, 1989-1998. The NBA expanded SIX times from 1989-1996, and the league was full of garbage teams.

[Cavsfansince84]

LeBum spent his entire prime in a historically poor conference. This thread is ridiculous.

Lebron played in a historically awful conference 2004-2018. The East had an overall winning percentage against the West of .431 from 2004-2018.

Jordan played in a historically weak league, 1989-1998. The NBA expanded SIX times from 1989-1996, and the league was full of garbage teams.

West from 1980-1988 as well. The problem I have with all of this talk is it puts the focus entirely on competition which is just one part of overall context. Strength of teams played on, injuries, performances in series and the endurance side of it are also part of the context that aren't being discussed at all and should be. People's agendas are too one sided and it gets in the of way of having any sort of meaningful discussion. Which is the main problem any time MJ and LeBron are compared going back to 2006 when battle lines were already being drawn.

[ty 4191]

West from 1980-1988 as well.

Yes, I know. Bird>>Magic because he played against much better teams both in the playoffs, and, overall. Don't see how any of that has any bearing on this particular discussion, however.

And, injuries and all the other ancillary, tertiary, quaternary (anecdotal) variables you mention even out over a 15+ year career, including the playoffs.

League and conference/division strength is paramount.

[ty 4191]

People's agendas are too one sided and it gets in the of way of having any sort of meaningful discussion.

The only "agenda" I have is figuring out who had better teammates, and who faced better teams, overall, in the Finals, for the sake of this discussion.

In other words, Veritas. Period.

Jordan played in a league decimated by expansion. Very weak/imbalanced league totally lacking parity, for 10 seasons.

Lebron's leagues never expanded, but he played in a total joke conference for 15 years. Weakest ever, historically, when compared to the other Conference.

[DCasey91]

Pre retirement Magic
Drexler
Barkley
Kemp/GP
Malone
Malone

Duncan
Garnett or Kobe take your pick here in 010’ (Superteam before Heat)
Dirk
Durant
Duncan
Duncan
Curry/Cavs Injury
Durant/Curry
Durant/Curry
Durant/Curry 19’
Butler

That’s the top player then work your way down from there.

There’s no discussion on who had harder the comp. 90’s era breakdowns under not even finecombing examination.

80’s had Sixers, Celtics, Lakers, Pistons. Lakers were slightly over stacked but even then Sixers/Celtics were ATG squads.

No is going to be remember any of the 90’s teams besides one... that’s it.

Look at the financial aspect that’s it that’s all you have to do.

“Weak in Lebron’s Era”. well what about the defensive teams putting up fights against the MJ Bulls then. Can’t have it both ways.

SRS? Does that include the expansion inflation tax?

The 6-0 as a marker is more impressive as a number of flawlessness but getting to 10 finals and winning 4/5 (split 15/16, 11’ the black marker that’s literally it) is just as impressive imo.

[Cavsfansince84]

The only "agenda" I have is figuring out who had better teammates, and who faced better teams, overall, in the Finals, for the sake of this discussion.

In other words, Veritas. Period.

Jordan played in a league decimated by expansion. Very weak/imbalanced league totally lacking parity, for 10 seasons.

Lebron's leagues never expanded, but he played in a total joke conference for 15 years. Weakest ever, historically, when compared to the other Conference.

I wasn't accusing you in particular of having a one sided agenda, I can generally see for myself who is doing what by what they write. LeBron's east was weak though idk about it being that much weaker than the west from 1980-1988 or comparing the teams he faced compared to the ones which Magic did during that run.

[DCasey91]

Lebron’s era - Very much better teams at the end. More parity and more legit winning teams. Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, GSW one after the other with zero respite in between.

Jordan’s era - Better teams in the East at 1st rnd - ECF though with a caveat (Magic borderline, Celtics 100%>)

Lebron - Better teammates but only for a few years (have to be exact here) but it’s Jordan for the duration and there’s no doubt about it. I ignore people that pick out 1 year. Career > 1 year ffs.

Jordan - Better teammates, better coach, better GM who got demonized that’s cool he built the team with winning moves one after the other, easier era (depth in the league not there), financial exploitative practice with zero repercussions, luck with injury and continuity that only Russell tops, expansion etc etc. They played with a stacked deck for the majority of their six championships. Remember LBJ era which is awfully long (spreads to 3 gens) there’s a billion extra pool to pick talent from along with salary cap restraints, no expansion etc, full worldwide talent exposure. Simple logic. Look at the reigning MVP’s All NBA talent, last 20 years and where they came from. Also Lebron won in a new gen’s timeframe to put succinctly in 2020.

At worst it’s a wash.

[migya]

This has been covered earlier, days ago, but Jordan's era was better, better players and teams. I'll go through it very quickly:

Expansion that has been beaten almost to death here, if it had much of an effect, which doubt it did, was only for three or so years. Miami made the playoffs in its fourth year I think, Orlando in its sixth. There was alot of influx of very good players in the draft in the early 90s as n throughout. Players to note; Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Payton, Kemp, Kidd, Hill, Mutombo, Webber., both Hardaways, Sprewell, Cassell, Eddie Jones. The rise and improvement of Olajuwon, Malone, KJ, Strickland, Larry Johnson, Coleman, Kenny Anderson, Richmond.

Most of the best players in history were in the 90s.

Lebron's era has had more condensed talent on fewer teams and thus more awful teams. Bobcats, Minnesota, Boston for a few years.

The truth is evident when looked at properly.

[HeartBreakKid]

This has been covered earlier, days ago, but Jordan's era was better, better players and teams. I'll go through it very quickly:

Expansion that has been beaten almost to death here, if it had much of an effect, which doubt it did, was only for three or so years. Miami made the playoffs in its fourth year I think, Orlando in its sixth. There was alot of influx of very good players in the draft in the early 90s as n throughout. Players to note; Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Payton, Kemp, Kidd, Hill, Mutombo, Webber., both Hardaways, Sprewell, Cassell, Eddie Jones. The rise and improvement of Olajuwon, Malone, KJ, Strickland, Larry Johnson, Coleman, Kenny Anderson, Richmond.

Most of the best players in history were in the 90s.

Lebron's era has had more condensed talent on fewer teams and thus more awful teams. Bobcats, Minnesota, Boston for a few years.

The truth is evident when looked at properly.

You think NBA players have only gotten worse since 30 years ago?


Most of the best players were in the 90s...?...prove that. But even if that was true, they weren't on the same team - which is an anomaly in the NBA's history. Most all time great players played with other all time great players.

In the 90s, the only two teams that had that were the Bulls and Jazz. Duncan and Robinson are the next closest thing, and their primes coincided the season after Jordan retired, and to nobodies surprise they won the NBA titles.

I don't even know what you're saying with the influx of players. Lebron James was an all-nba player by 2005. You really want me to list every great player from 2005 until 2019? I assure you if your standard for good player is Kenny Anderson and Latrell Sprewell I can make a much larger list.

How are the Celtics as bad as the Bobcats? And Minnesota was terrible during Jordan's era...you're really going to argue that a team like the Grizzlies and Raptors in the 90s weren't terrible teams?




Since Jordan's time the NBA has gotten significantly more players from Europe to come over. They also have an actual minor league that is producing rotational players. People actually practice 3 point shots. I'm really not following how people in the 90s are better than today.

[ty 4191]

You think NBA players have only gotten worse since 30 years ago?


Most of the best players were in the 90s...?...prove that. But even if that was true, they weren't on the same team - which is an anomaly in the NBA's history. Most all time great players played with other all time great players.

In the 90s, the only two teams that had that were the Bulls and Jazz. Duncan and Robinson are the next closest thing, and their primes coincided the season after Jordan retired, and to nobodies surprise they won the NBA titles.

I don't even know what you're saying with the influx of players. Lebron James was an all-nba player by 2005. You really want me to list every great player from 2005 until 2019? I assure you if your standard for good player is Kenny Anderson and Latrell Sprewell I can make a much larger list.

How are the Celtics as bad as the Bobcats? And Minnesota was terrible during Jordan's era...you're really going to argue that a team like the Grizzlies and Raptors in the 90s weren't terrible teams?

Since Jordan's time the NBA has gotten significantly more players from Europe to come over. They also have an actual minor league that is producing rotational players. People actually practice 3 point shots. I'm really not following how people in the 90s are better than today.

Excellent post here!!

https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-foreign-born-players-2016-11

“During the 1980-81 season, only 1.7% of NBA players were born outside the United States. Over the next 17 seasons, the percentage of foreign-born players grew steadily to 7.6% in the 1997-98 season. But then things took off as the percentage nearly tripled in just the next seven seasons, reaching 22.1% in the 2004-05 season.

But despite reaching an all-time high last season, with 28.6% of the players being from outside the United States, that number has dropped to 24.8% this season.”

See chart here, also:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/growing-number-of-foreign-born-players-in-nba-slows-2018-10%3famp

Lebron has played against a truly globalized League.

Michael Jordan certainly did not.

[migya]

This has been covered earlier, days ago, but Jordan's era was better, better players and teams. I'll go through it very quickly:

Expansion that has been beaten almost to death here, if it had much of an effect, which doubt it did, was only for three or so years. Miami made the playoffs in its fourth year I think, Orlando in its sixth. There was alot of influx of very good players in the draft in the early 90s as n throughout. Players to note; Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Payton, Kemp, Kidd, Hill, Mutombo, Webber., both Hardaways, Sprewell, Cassell, Eddie Jones. The rise and improvement of Olajuwon, Malone, KJ, Strickland, Larry Johnson, Coleman, Kenny Anderson, Richmond.

Most of the best players in history were in the 90s.

Lebron's era has had more condensed talent on fewer teams and thus more awful teams. Bobcats, Minnesota, Boston for a few years.

The truth is evident when looked at properly.

You think NBA players have only gotten worse since 30 years ago?


Most of the best players were in the 90s...?...prove that. But even if that was true, they weren't on the same team - which is an anomaly in the NBA's history. Most all time great players played with other all time great players.

In the 90s, the only two teams that had that were the Bulls and Jazz. Duncan and Robinson are the next closest thing, and their primes coincided the season after Jordan retired, and to nobodies surprise they won the NBA titles.

I don't even know what you're saying with the influx of players. Lebron James was an all-nba player by 2005. You really want me to list every great player from 2005 until 2019? I assure you if your standard for good player is Kenny Anderson and Latrell Sprewell I can make a much larger list.

How are the Celtics as bad as the Bobcats? And Minnesota was terrible during Jordan's era...you're really going to argue that a team like the Grizzlies and Raptors in the 90s weren't terrible teams?




Since Jordan's time the NBA has gotten significantly more players from Europe to come over. They also have an actual minor league that is producing rotational players. People actually practice 3 point shots. I'm really not following how people in the 90s are better than today.

In general, players nowadays are more skilled in overall terms. They are more on ball skilled, including dribbling and three point shooting. Players nowadays are softer and not as skilled in intangibles like older era players.

The 90s had two top ten players in their prime, outside of Jordan, two or three more top twenty players, two more top thirty players. The Dream Teamers, except Magic and Bird, were all in their prime in the 90s. Lebron has only been up against CP, Durant, Curry and Harden in their prime who are possibly top 30 players. Kobe was in his mid thirties when Lebron was winning championships. Garnett was well past his prime, as was Pierce and Kidd.

My point in bringing up those allstars from the 90s, a few who only made one or two allstar games, is to show that the expansion teams didn't affect the talent parity for long, as many players came from college and became stars.

These 90s great players I mentioned mostly didn't play on the same teams because that's parity, not superteams like some in Lebron's era. In the 2010s, Lebron's longest prime decade, besides the Warriors there was no other superteam. OKC were young and didn't stay together long at all.

[DCasey91]

Lebron was All NBA in 2005 he won in 2020

Why are you bringing up names like they don’t mean anything?

Kobe won when he was 30 and 31 that’s smack bang in your prime.

That’s 15 years apart that blows MJ’s era out the water alone.

Heat/Cavs won 4
GSW won 3 and were OP in 19’ of course
Spurs won 3
Lakers won 2
Mavs won 1
Wade Heat won 1
Celtics won 1
Bucks won 1

That’s called parity.

Expansion teams didn’t effect parity? The hell are you smoking?

Look at the Hawks right now that depth would smoke basically every 90’s team easily.

Physical? You mean archaic that’s the word you’re looking for.

Pull up a goddamn MJ highlights clip ffs in the 90’s you have open 3’s with 3 feet of space. They’d even give you 3+ feet defending on the wings to go inside that literally doesn’t happen at all today you’d get killed.

Outside/in harder to defend than inside/out.

Curry has been doubled/triple I reckon 4x greater than MJ ever did. MJ got a large amount of mid touches 1 one 1, Weak doubles etc.

96-01’ is the depth their questionable? Of course it is.

Take off the nostalgia hat

BIG LOL

Curry can’t even pass halfcourt without the whole defensive team sh*tting bricks. The dude has literally been swamped by 5 players once couldn’t believe it.

[falcolombardi]

This has been covered earlier, days ago, but Jordan's era was better, better players and teams. I'll go through it very quickly:

Expansion that has been beaten almost to death here, if it had much of an effect, which doubt it did, was only for three or so years. Miami made the playoffs in its fourth year I think, Orlando in its sixth. There was alot of influx of very good players in the draft in the early 90s as n throughout. Players to note; Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Payton, Kemp, Kidd, Hill, Mutombo, Webber., both Hardaways, Sprewell, Cassell, Eddie Jones. The rise and improvement of Olajuwon, Malone, KJ, Strickland, Larry Johnson, Coleman, Kenny Anderson, Richmond.

Most of the best players in history were in the 90s.

Lebron's era has had more condensed talent on fewer teams and thus more awful teams. Bobcats, Minnesota, Boston for a few years.

The truth is evident when looked at properly.

You think NBA players have only gotten worse since 30 years ago?


Most of the best players were in the 90s...?...prove that. But even if that was true, they weren't on the same team - which is an anomaly in the NBA's history. Most all time great players played with other all time great players.

In the 90s, the only two teams that had that were the Bulls and Jazz. Duncan and Robinson are the next closest thing, and their primes coincided the season after Jordan retired, and to nobodies surprise they won the NBA titles.

I don't even know what you're saying with the influx of players. Lebron James was an all-nba player by 2005. You really want me to list every great player from 2005 until 2019? I assure you if your standard for good player is Kenny Anderson and Latrell Sprewell I can make a much larger list.

How are the Celtics as bad as the Bobcats? And Minnesota was terrible during Jordan's era...you're really going to argue that a team like the Grizzlies and Raptors in the 90s weren't terrible teams?




Since Jordan's time the NBA has gotten significantly more players from Europe to come over. They also have an actual minor league that is producing rotational players. People actually practice 3 point shots. I'm really not following how people in the 90s are better than today.

In general, players nowadays are more skilled in overall terms. They are more on ball skilled, including dribbling and three point shooting. Players nowadays are softer and not as skilled in intangibles like older era players.

The 90s had two top ten players in their prime, outside of Jordan, two or three more top twenty players, two more top thirty players. The Dream Teamers, except Magic and Bird, were all in their prime in the 90s. Lebron has only been up against CP, Durant, Curry and Harden in their prime who are possibly top 30 players. Kobe was in his mid thirties when Lebron was winning championships. Garnett was well past his prime, as was Pierce and Kidd.

My point in bringing up those allstars from the 90s, a few who only made one or two allstar games, is to show that the expansion teams didn't affect the talent parity for long, as many players came from college and became stars.

These 90s great players I mentioned mostly didn't play on the same teams because that's parity, not superteams like some in Lebron's era. In the 2010s, Lebron's longest prime decade, besides the Warriors there was no other superteam. OKC were young and didn't stay together long at all.

and yo know they were so much tougher and with better intangibles because....? old player good amd tough, milenial soft and bad? i know sure as hell Charles barkley was not a intangibles god for starters

shaq was not in his his prime when jordan played in the bulls, at most he could be series to be prime shaq startimg in 98....and then jordan has much better help, jordan also had much better help overall through his prime than hakeem... of the 3 top 10 players in the 90's jordan was the one with the superteams, at least relative to them (and again shaq was not in his prime for most od it)

curry and durant are not any worse than barkley and karl malone, probably better to be honest, same with chris Paul vs clyde drexler for example i guaranteed you curry and durant will end p higher in most people all time lista than barkley or karl malone
hakeem was great but his teams didnt have so much help as jordan teams for the most part, jordan had on average the best teams of his era superstars