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2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET

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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#261 » by The Effect » Mon Nov 8, 2021 3:32 pm

Xatticus wrote:
Knightro wrote:I think a lot of different things, both good and bad, can be true about Cole Anthony at the same time.

There's ALWAYS going to be a place on any team, including teams with deep playoff aspirations, for someone who can score at high volume on high efficiency, which is what Cole is doing right now. 20.8 PPG on .588 TS% is very good. The league average TS% is .548.

And Cole is absolutely the Magic's best option offensively right now *and* he's only 21 and still clearly improving. So I can't fault him for wanting the lion's share of the shots or fault Mosley for sticking with him as his No. 1 guy for the time being.

There's something exciting and fun about having a guard who can really make plays at a high level off the dribble. It's something this team hasn't consistently had out of one of its guards since... Jameer in 2009? That's modern basketball and something the Magic just haven't had in so long. I definitely get a rush when Cole's clearly on a heater and fires a stepback 3 that you just know is going in.

Where things start to get dicey is when you take a step backward and start to look at this more broadly over the long-term.

Cole's ability to be an efficient scorer does NOT mean that he is no questions asked going to be a long-term starter for this team or any other team. Let's face some realities.

-He's a one position defender (PG's only) who is not very good at defending that one position.
-He's made some improvements from year 1 to year 2, but he's still not a natural point guard.
-He's not very useful in a pure SG role either since he is far less effective and more uncomfortable off the ball.

So what is he?

For all intents and purposes he's a 6'2" on-ball player who wants to either ISO and look for his own shot or run pick and roll and look for his own shot. If he beats his man and draws help, he'll pass it, but that's clearly secondary to his own offense.

I don't want to speak for him, but based on his remarks I would imagine that Xatticus' primary concern is that the longer the Magic let Anthony have free reign of the offense, the more difficult it's going to be to wrestle it away from him when that time inevitably comes. And because of his other limitations as a defender and passer, the odds are pretty likely that the Magic are going to have to eventually place Cole into a lesser role.


It's more than that though. I just didn't think he had a very good night outside of the shooting. He was much better against Minnesota. The ball wasn't moving last night. If a QB throws for 350 yards and 3 TDs by constantly throwing into triple coverage, he didn't have a good night. I thought Cole missed a lot of obvious reads to get his own shots up and I thought a lot of those shots were very sketchy. He took a bunch of heat checks before the offense even had a chance to do anything. He had this incredible finish when he drove into two defenders and tossed up an off balance flick to evade the defender's arm. It went in. Good. It was a bone-headed shot. You can say all you want about trusting your teammates, but your play reflects what you actually believe.

Our best possession of the night was probably our first possession. Suggs ran a sloppy pick and roll with WCJ. He was about to kick it back out to WCJ who popped out to the three point line, but he saw the weakside defender rotating over and instead tossed a skip pass to Wagner. Wagner drove into the paint and kicked it back out to an open Suggs, who then immediately flicked it to Anthony whose defender was already rotating over to Suggs. That's good basketball.

Some positives... he did find WCJ in the paint in the fourth quarter when WCJ charged down low and demanded the ball after O'Neale got switched onto him. He had a nice block when Mitchell tried to Eurostep him in the paint. He has demonstrated a proclivity to give up his body in an effort to draw charges. He didn't draw a charge last night, but he did step up on the baseline to try to cut someone off. He probably should've been called for a block, but he wasn't and the shot was missed. When you are ineffectual as an on-ball defender, you have to find ways to contribute off the ball.

I understand that people get worked up about good shooting nights, but bad decision-making doesn't lead to sustainable success. Utah was a much better team than us last night. Their ball movement is terrific. They just couldn't shoot. I thought we worked hard at the defensive end all night long and I'm glad that it paid off, but as well as we played, we benefited substantially from Utah's tired legs. If Conley plays, we lose that game. If Utah didn't have a battle with Miami the night before, we probably get run right off the court. I'm not going to hypocritically praise bad basketball simply because we got the desired result. You have to hold guys accountable. I was every bit as critical of Clifford for bashing the team after a loss when I thought we played well. I want a team that plays as though they have no idea what the score is and I want Mosley to coach as though he has no idea what the outcome of the game was.


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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#262 » by VFX » Mon Nov 8, 2021 3:37 pm

Knightro wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:No because height means nothing if the will isn’t there. Forgot positions and heights. That has very limited of importance and is basically something that you see on paper. Cole is playing bigger than his height and while his weakness is defense he’s made some strides there. Every player has weaknesses. Even the greats. With that said, I think it’s better to focus on what he’s doing what right now and remind yourself he’s not a finished product.

He’s playing as close as an all star than other player on this roster right now (21 years old in only his second season mind you) and doing it efficiently. Will it come back down to earth? Why even focus on that? How about we we hope not? Why not we just give him time and see what he becomes and enjoy the fact we for once have a player who’s showing no fear, who’s taking the role of a leader, and is playing with his heart while also showing a commitment to be great and improve?

Enjoy the moment. What will happen will happen regardless.


I'm not hating on the kid. I enjoy the hell out of watching him when he's cooking. I just know that for the most part he's has unfettered run of the Magic's offense and they're 3-8.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't expect the team to be any good, so I'm not knocking Cole or any of the other kids for the team's record. But at the same time, I'm trying to not get lost in the box scores too much either when they aren't winning much.

Cole right now has shown that he can score efficiently which is a valuable skill. But for all intents and purposes, he's nothing more than a short scorer. He's not really a good distributor. He's not really a good defender. He can't really play SG because he's not very good without the ball in his hands.

They are obviously going to keep letting him do his thing the rest of this season and see what happens with his development (as they should), but there's a reason why guys like Jordan Clarkson and Lou Williams have never been starters for the good teams they've been on. Their skill sets, while valuable, are not the best suited for a starting guard role on a winning team.

And personally, I think if Cole plays out these next couple of years and puts up an efficient 20-7-5 and the Magic go 25-57, it's going to be really difficult to tell him "hey we know you've been our best player and want a contract extension, but we think it's best for the team overall if you go from being a 35 MPG starter to being a 25 MPG 6th man."


Thanks for posting this so I didn’t have to.

The initial criticism of Cole Anthony wasn’t that people didn’t believe he couldn’t score on volume. He’s obviously capable. He fills the role that Orlando has been missing since forever.

My concern with drafting Cole Anthony was everything else about his game without Orlando having a competent starting point guard to initiate an offense. Suggs is that guy. I still believe that the rookie will eventually settle in to build a more sustainable system. It’s going to take time.

There’s not really a downside to Cole going out and putting up numbers. The other guys have to eventually step up and he will come back down to earth as the player we all know.

Your last paragraph is what bothered me about drafting him and what I predict will happen. He’s fitting a glaring need right now and I can already see the arguments about his role and upside in the future. I don’t care how well Cole is scoring the basketball right now. He’s not one of the 30 best point guards qualified to be a starter on a sustainable winning nba team. That doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate what he’s been doing recently.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#263 » by Knightro » Mon Nov 8, 2021 3:44 pm

If you're looking for a very comparable situation that's also happening right now, check out the Cleveland Cavaliers and Collin Sexton.

Sexton in year 2 averaged 20.8 PPG on .560 TS%
Sexton in year 3 averaged 24.3 PPG on .573 TS%

Those are both really good numbers! But they weren't winning and his deficiencies are also very similar to Cole's. Sexton can't defend. He can't play SG because he needs to on the ball to be most effective. But he also does not really have enough fleshed out PG skills to be on the ball all the time as a starter on a winning team.

The Cavs opted not to extend him and let him hit RFA, which was smart. But now they've run into issues here in his 4th season because they're actually trying to win games and they're playing much better when Sexton isn't on the court. The best thing for their team is for Sexton to NOT be their main guy offensively, but because he's been their top usage guy the previous three years, it's proving to not be an easy adjustment for him or for the team.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#264 » by zaymon » Mon Nov 8, 2021 4:23 pm

Knightro wrote:If you're looking for a very comparable situation that's also happening right now, check out the Cleveland Cavaliers and Collin Sexton.

Sexton in year 2 averaged 20.8 PPG on .560 TS%
Sexton in year 3 averaged 24.3 PPG on .573 TS%

Those are both really good numbers! But they weren't winning and his deficiencies are also very similar to Cole's. Sexton can't defend. He can't play SG because he needs to on the ball to be most effective. But he also does not really have enough fleshed out PG skills to be on the ball all the time as a starter on a winning team.

The Cavs opted not to extend him and let him hit RFA, which was smart. But now they've run into issues here in his 4th season because they're actually trying to win games and they're playing much better when Sexton isn't on the court. The best thing for their team is for Sexton to NOT be their main guy offensively, but because he's been their top usage guy the previous three years, it's proving to not be an easy adjustment for him or for the team.


I dont know if Sexton comparison is fair. I doubt Cole numbers will remain that good but right now he is making our team better which you cant say about Sexton. Anthony is bigger and much better defensively than Collin. He rebounds, he takes charges and most importantly he passes the ball a lot more than Sexton.(this year its 61vs 28 per game so the difference is big)
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#265 » by jezzerinho » Mon Nov 8, 2021 4:27 pm

Knightro wrote:If you're looking for a very comparable situation that's also happening right now, check out the Cleveland Cavaliers and Collin Sexton.

Sexton in year 2 averaged 20.8 PPG on .560 TS%
Sexton in year 3 averaged 24.3 PPG on .573 TS%

Those are both really good numbers! But they weren't winning and his deficiencies are also very similar to Cole's. Sexton can't defend. He can't play SG because he needs to on the ball to be most effective. But he also does not really have enough fleshed out PG skills to be on the ball all the time as a starter on a winning team.

The Cavs opted not to extend him and let him hit RFA, which was smart. But now they've run into issues here in his 4th season because they're actually trying to win games and they're playing much better when Sexton isn't on the court. The best thing for their team is for Sexton to NOT be their main guy offensively, but because he's been their top usage guy the previous three years, it's proving to not be an easy adjustment for him or for the team.


Yes and no. I agree with the overall premise but Sexton's reluctance to share the ball is way more marked than Anthony's. You also only really find out if your PG is not prepared to take a subordinate scoring role when you have other players to step up and provide enough offense to allow you to compare differences on/off court. That has happened in Cleveland to a degree. It hasn't yet in Orlando.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#266 » by Knightro » Mon Nov 8, 2021 4:47 pm

zaymon wrote:I dont know if Sexton comparison is fair. I doubt Cole numbers will remain that good but right now he is making our team better which you cant say about Sexton. Anthony is bigger and much better defensively than Collin. He rebounds, he takes charges and most importantly he passes the ball a lot more than Sexton.(this year its 61vs 28 per game so the difference is big)


That's fair.

I do think it's worth noting that Sexton does not play point guard for the Cavaliers at all anymore. He's pretty much been forced to only play off the ball with Garland making significant improvements and the Cavs acquiring Rubio to take on a big share of the playmaking duties as well. That's a big reason why Sexton's also struggled a lot this year IMO. He just doesn't have the ball and get to initiate possessions nearly as much as he did previously.

When you look at passes received, which includes possession starting passes after made baskets and defensive rebounds, Sexton's only receiving 41.2 passes a game. Last year he received 68.3 a game.

Anthony's all way up at 69.7 passes received a game this year. That ranks top 10 in the entire league on a per game basis.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#267 » by Last Guardian » Mon Nov 8, 2021 5:11 pm

jezzerinho wrote:
Last Guardian wrote: Personally, I don't see him hijacking the offense that much unless it is the 4th quarter or the Magic are massively struggling to score. Franz and Suggs get the ball plenty, only Franz is actually good with it though at the moment.


Until we reach a point where the offensive production of Suggs, Franz, Chuma et al makes It a no-brainer that Cole is not sharing the ball enough, then it's harder to insist Anthony involve his teammates more than he is. Ideally, he'd go into ISO mode a little less than he does, but it's not an egregious case of ball-hogging at all - both because he's shooting efficiently for now and because the others aren't yet picking up the slack.



It would be a problem if we didn't get a look at what the other young players are capable of in a season like this because Cole is taking all the shots. But that really hasn't been the case. Suggs is getting plenty of opportunities to show something he's just struggling badly. Franz has had many good games so far and he gets the ball quite a bit to make a play. Chuma even has been aggressive this season but hasn't capitalized yet. When RJ is in he is handling the ball a decent amount as well just can't finish at the rim.

4th quarter is definitely "Cole time" but he kind of deserves it. He's ruthless at the end (ignoring the end of the Toronto game, though if Trent Jr doesn't poke the ball away I think Cole probably ends up making a shot).
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#268 » by zaymon » Mon Nov 8, 2021 5:13 pm

Knightro wrote:
zaymon wrote:I dont know if Sexton comparison is fair. I doubt Cole numbers will remain that good but right now he is making our team better which you cant say about Sexton. Anthony is bigger and much better defensively than Collin. He rebounds, he takes charges and most importantly he passes the ball a lot more than Sexton.(this year its 61vs 28 per game so the difference is big)


That's fair.

I do think it's worth noting that Sexton does not play point guard for the Cavaliers at all anymore. He's pretty much been forced to only play off the ball with Garland making significant improvements and the Cavs acquiring Rubio to take on a big share of the playmaking duties as well. That's a big reason why Sexton's also struggled a lot this year IMO. He just doesn't have the ball and get to initiate possessions nearly as much as he did previously.

When you look at passes received, which includes possession starting passes after made baskets and defensive rebounds, Sexton's only receiving 41.2 passes a game. Last year he received 68.3 a game.

Anthony's all way up at 69.7 passes received a game this year. That ranks top 10 in the entire league on a per game basis.


Struggling to play off ball could be the common thing between Sexton and Anthony. We saw how Anthony looked off the ball during summer league and it was not pretty. I think Anthony could be offensive engine which is propably not possible for Sexton. He seems more bright than Collinn.I dont know how good he could be though. He doesnt have natural instincts so he will need to depend even more on his knowledge. He will need to memorize every play of every team if he wants to be a good lead ball handler, no other way around it.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#269 » by PrimeThyme » Mon Nov 8, 2021 6:30 pm

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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#270 » by Duradero » Mon Nov 8, 2021 6:55 pm

fendilim wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:
drsd wrote:
Are you arguing that Anthony's upside is to become the Next Jameer Nelson?



..



No because it’s not up to me to determine his upside. That’s up to him.

Personally I don’t see Jameer.

He already shooting better than Jameer


Meer was a better facilitator but you never saw him tomahawk it on the break like Cole. Pretty different players imo
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#271 » by penny_nz » Mon Nov 8, 2021 7:57 pm

I think we can all agree Coles exact role is TBD

What I'm personally not worried about is that him looking for his shot is through any selfish, got to get mine, don't trust my teammates, kind of mindset. Dude is a caricature and a Tasmanian devil, but he seems to GENUINELY care about the team and his teammates. That makes him good in my book.

I really believe right now, WORST case is he's best suited as a 6th man (and a very good one), and truly worst case is he doesn't want to take that role here and we need to move him. In that situation, it means something BETTER has happened in our backcourt, which is awesome! I also don't see him demanding the ball or injecting himself into plays not designed for him, so I don't think he will stop other players growing if those plays and roles are called by coach.

Growing pains at the start of the rebuild, hopefully by end of season we're discussing how to fit a Kelle with a fixed shot, a Suggs who's found his form and a still hot Cole into a rotation! That would be a nice problem to have :D

Until then, enjoyed the heck out of this game!
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#272 » by p0peye » Mon Nov 8, 2021 8:11 pm

I find Cole developing into best case scenario we can hope for him. If he doesn't turn into volume scorer, what other option is there?
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#273 » by zaymon » Mon Nov 8, 2021 10:12 pm

To me Anthony's game looks more like Donovan Mitchell than Collin Sexton. He is better passer than Mitchell was in his second year and only slightly worse than Mitchell last year. He is also taller and propably a better shooter. He is much worse defensively but i wouldnt say he is terrible. I am first one to critic Anthony but he really has some skills. Passing is great but what really changed Utah offense last year was off the dribble 3 point shooting, you can check it.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#274 » by Ducklett » Tue Nov 9, 2021 12:00 am

I am totally fine with the criticism of Cole and most of it I have seen here is valid. But, as usual with this board, we have essays and pages of criticism of Cole as if it is the worst thing/most negative thing on the team. Call me when we have these vast write ups on Suggs, Dell's short game, Okeke, Wagner when he is not aggressive, Gary Harris, T Ross, and Mo Wagner. All of those things are more negative/worse than Cole's negatives.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#275 » by BadMofoPimp » Tue Nov 9, 2021 2:44 am

Chris Paul is only 6'0". Cole will be fine and I think he will become a much better PG in his career. Hope it is here. Having a 2 PG backcourt if they hit 3's fairly well could be absolutely dangerous.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#276 » by fendilim » Tue Nov 9, 2021 5:55 am

Duradero wrote:
fendilim wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:

No because it’s not up to me to determine his upside. That’s up to him.

Personally I don’t see Jameer.

He already shooting better than Jameer


Meer was a better facilitator but you never saw him tomahawk it on the break like Cole. Pretty different players imo

I beg to disagree. Cole has for worse scoring teammates and their assists numbers arent that far, imo.

But Jameer is a far more willing passer, if that makes sense.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 11: Utah Jazz (7-2) at Orlando Magic (2-8) - 11/7/21 at 6pm ET 

Post#277 » by pepe1991 » Tue Nov 9, 2021 7:54 am

Cole is entertaining thing during bad season.
That doesn't change fact that there is zero chance he will sustain high shooting given type of shots he takes. And he will never be positive defender because his defensive awarness isn't there and he does not physical atributes to make it up for mistakes.

Devonte Graham, much like Cole, started second year of his career shooting lights out, on some epic shooting ( +60% TS) and 7,6 assists. Ofc over time that fizzled out. I think Cole can be bit more effective scorer ( Graham career 53,3% TS for career) but not by much.

Graham /Sexston imo, is best Cole comp.

Nobody gives a damn today that he highjacks offense because ,frankly, there isn't much better alternative. But will you like him if team drafts star and you have 4th quaters where he takes away shots from your young Ingram -Tatum type player ? Probably not.
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