Where does Jokic's peak rank among centers all-time?

[jalengreen]

(His peak so far)

I'm guessing he would be top 10 but not top 5? What do you guys think?

[Colbinii]

I think he was behind Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson, Russell, Walton and Wilt last season.

I think this season he is going to be in that group.

[70sFan]

Yeah, I'd have him inside my top 10. Here is the order of my tiers in the top 15 for now (I've been working on this for months, by I can change some minor things later when I finish my project):

Tier 1

Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

Tier 2

Bill Russell
Bill Walton

Tier 3

Moses Malone
David Robinson
Nikola Jokic

Tier 4

Willis Reed
Patrick Ewing


Tier 5

Artis Gilmore
Dwight Howard
Joel Embiid

[HeartBreakKid]

Dont forget about European Sabonis *smirks eagerly

[Max123]

Yeah, I'd have him inside my top 10. Here is the order of my tiers in the top 15 for now (I've been working on this for months, by I can change some minor things later when I finish my project):

Tier 1

Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

Tier 2

Bill Russell
Bill Walton

Tier 3

Moses Malone
David Robinson
Nikola Jokic

Tier 4

Willis Reed
Patrick Ewing


Tier 5

Artis Gilmore
Dwight Howard
Joel Embiid

How come Russell’s not in tier 1?


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[70sFan]

Yeah, I'd have him inside my top 10. Here is the order of my tiers in the top 15 for now (I've been working on this for months, by I can change some minor things later when I finish my project):

Tier 1

Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

Tier 2

Bill Russell
Bill Walton

Tier 3

Moses Malone
David Robinson
Nikola Jokic

Tier 4

Willis Reed
Patrick Ewing


Tier 5

Artis Gilmore
Dwight Howard
Joel Embiid

How come Russell’s not in tier 1?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

It's only peak-wise, I just believe that his offensive limitations didn't allow him to reach the highest level at his peak. In terms of career, Russell is on another level (along with Kareem).

[Mogspan]

O'Neal
Abdul-Jabbar
Olajuwon
Duncan
Russell
Chamberlain
Robinson
Walton
Jokić
Malone
Howard
Mourning
Reed
Mutombo
Ewing

HM: Mikan

[ty 4191]

It's only peak-wise, I just believe that his offensive limitations didn't allow him to reach the highest level at his peak. In terms of career, Russell is on another level (along with Kareem).

He played, what 11% of his total peak playoffs games against Elite + All Time Great Defenses, and still could only muster 14.2 PPG on significantly negative true shooting %?

Russell was a tremendous offensive liability. And his teams were atrocious offensively, as a result. Worst I've ever found, by a huge margin.

[70sFan]

It's only peak-wise, I just believe that his offensive limitations didn't allow him to reach the highest level at his peak. In terms of career, Russell is on another level (along with Kareem).

He played, what 11% of his total peak playoffs games against Elite + All Time Great Defenses, and still could only muster 14.2 PPG on significantly negative true shooting %?

Russell was a tremendous offensive liability. And his teams were atrocious offensively, as a result. Worst I've ever found, by a huge margin.

Russell wasn't offensive liability, he just wasn't a great scorer. His off-ball movement, passing ability, screen setting and offensive rebounding was still a big positive for Celtics offense.

At his peak, Russell's scoring wasn't bad in the playoffs at all:

1962-63 Russell: 21.4 ppg on 51.4 TS%

No offensive liability would be able to produce these numbers on decent sample of size (that includes the series against Wilt by the way).

Also, Celtics were bad offensively not strictly because of Russell, but because they lacked any kind of efficient scorers.

[falcolombardi]

Yeah, I'd have him inside my top 10. Here is the order of my tiers in the top 15 for now (I've been working on this for months, by I can change some minor things later when I finish my project):

Tier 1

Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

Tier 2

Bill Russell
Bill Walton

Tier 3

Moses Malone
David Robinson
Nikola Jokic

Tier 4

Willis Reed
Patrick Ewing


Tier 5

Artis Gilmore
Dwight Howard
Joel Embiid

if 2021 embiid is the season considered, is not that a bit low?

he scored slightly better than jokic and was a much stronger defender (but a much worse playmaker) amd center defense is a huge deal

[Colbinii]

Yeah, I'd have him inside my top 10. Here is the order of my tiers in the top 15 for now (I've been working on this for months, by I can change some minor things later when I finish my project):

Tier 1

Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

Tier 2

Bill Russell
Bill Walton

Tier 3

Moses Malone
David Robinson
Nikola Jokic

Tier 4

Willis Reed
Patrick Ewing


Tier 5

Artis Gilmore
Dwight Howard
Joel Embiid

if 2021 embiid is the season considered, is not that a bit low?

he scored slightly better than jokic and was a much stronger defender (but a much worse playmaker) amd center defense is a huge deal

I think he is pretty easily tier 4 although he was injured in the post-season.

[jalengreen]

Yeah, I'd have him inside my top 10. Here is the order of my tiers in the top 15 for now (I've been working on this for months, by I can change some minor things later when I finish my project):
...

if 2021 embiid is the season considered, is not that a bit low?

he scored slightly better than jokic and was a much stronger defender (but a much worse playmaker) amd center defense is a huge deal

I think he is pretty easily tier 4 although he was injured in the post-season.

Yeah I'd go with tier 4 as well. I'd put him behind Jokic but he's definitely peaked higher than Howard IMO

[Colbinii]

if 2021 embiid is the season considered, is not that a bit low?

he scored slightly better than jokic and was a much stronger defender (but a much worse playmaker) amd center defense is a huge deal

I think he is pretty easily tier 4 although he was injured in the post-season.

Yeah I'd go with tier 4 as well. I'd put him behind Jokic but he's definitely peaked higher than Howard IMO

But Embiid was injured and that does matter. I dont see anything wrong with the assessment.

[70sFan]

Yeah, I'd have him inside my top 10. Here is the order of my tiers in the top 15 for now (I've been working on this for months, by I can change some minor things later when I finish my project):

Tier 1

Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

Tier 2

Bill Russell
Bill Walton

Tier 3

Moses Malone
David Robinson
Nikola Jokic

Tier 4

Willis Reed
Patrick Ewing


Tier 5

Artis Gilmore
Dwight Howard
Joel Embiid

if 2021 embiid is the season considered, is not that a bit low?

he scored slightly better than jokic and was a much stronger defender (but a much worse playmaker) amd center defense is a huge deal

I think he is pretty easily tier 4 although he was injured in the post-season.

This is my reasoning as well. Embiid's lack of durability is too big of a factor to ignore it. I'd have him in the tier 4 with healthy season, but he wasn't healthy and we're comparing him to ironman like A-Train.

[DQuinn1575]

if 2021 embiid is the season considered, is not that a bit low?

he scored slightly better than jokic and was a much stronger defender (but a much worse playmaker) amd center defense is a huge deal

I think he is pretty easily tier 4 although he was injured in the post-season.

This is my reasoning as well. Embiid's lack of durability is too big of a factor to ignore it. I'd have him in the tier 4 with healthy season, but he wasn't healthy and we're comparing him to ironman like A-Train.

Good list -
I think I'd have Cowens at either 4 or 5 (probably 4), and put Lanier and Thurmond at 5.
And then I'd have to think hard about 81-82 Parish to be level 5.

[70sFan]

I think he is pretty easily tier 4 although he was injured in the post-season.

This is my reasoning as well. Embiid's lack of durability is too big of a factor to ignore it. I'd have him in the tier 4 with healthy season, but he wasn't healthy and we're comparing him to ironman like A-Train.

Good list -
I think I'd have Cowens at either 4 or 5 (probably 4), and put Lanier and Thurmond at 5.
And then I'd have to think hard about 81-82 Parish to be level 5.

I'm not as high as you on Cowens, though he's probably in the 5.5 tier. I'd put Lanier, Thurmond and Mourning in that tier as well.

[Jaivl]

Best player ever after yesterday's events.

[feyki]

As the 2021 Jokic, KAJ,Wilt,Shaq,Mikan,Hakeem,Russell,Walton,Robinson were with higher peaks, clearly. I think he's slightly behind 82 Moses and slightly above 74 Cowens. 10th best peak.

[ty 4191]

It's only peak-wise, I just believe that his offensive limitations didn't allow him to reach the highest level at his peak.

Bill Russell also faced crap teams in the playoffs during his prime, compared to Wilt and Kareem, as you so insightfully and eruditely proved.

On top of that, look at his TS Added, career, compared to Wilt, and Kareem. It's a joke.

Bill Russell was a liability offensively throughout his career.

[70sFan]

It's only peak-wise, I just believe that his offensive limitations didn't allow him to reach the highest level at his peak.

Bill Russell also faced crap teams in the playoffs during his prime, compared to Wilt and Kareem, as you so insightfully and eruditely proved.

On top of that, look at his TS Added, career, compared to Wilt, and Kareem. It's a joke.

Bill Russell was a liability offensively throughout his career.

I never proved that Russell was a liability offensively.