2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 2)

[ForeverTFC]

Wagner leads rookies with 2.9 deflections per game.

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Im so glad he's balling, he looked sooooooooooo bad in summer league and preseason...ALMOST makes up for Suggs lack of a shot right now, at least I have that to look forward to.

Suggs is doing too much right now, but all Rookies on bad teams do too much.

He's proven himself on good teams. He showed at Gonzaga that he can blend with a team and make winning plays. The probability that Suggs became a star was always low imo but his floor was considered very high and it's very tough to judge a guy with his game on such a bad team.

The Magic need an undisputed scorer to put beside Suggs and Wagner along a bunch of vets and I think you see Suggs ease in a bit more. Cole Anthony is not that guy, tank one more year.

[links135]

lol, I read through the raptors game thread vs the Cavs and you guys couldn't stop complaining about Fred dominating the ball and not even looking for Scottie.

A player should only be ignored on offense when the PG thinks that player can't even be trusted to touch the ball.

Is the finger worse than we think? Or are there ego problems in Toronto? If Scottie is what you guys keep telling us it has to be something like that.

I keep trying to convince Cavs fans that we don't want our PGs to try to dominate unless they're on a roll or there's no other option left. The Cavs have been doing a good job sharing the ball and finding the hot hand - hopefully they're noticing. Garland completely deferred to Rubio today and there was nothing wrong with that.

I wouldn't bother taking the majority opinion in there as anything. Many though Masai was a joke after taking Barnes. Most thought Norm for Trent was a pathetic loss of a trade. That board is hands down the most reactionary of all rand frankly, I question how many have even been watching more than 5-8 years.

This isn't a team where people do whatever they want. Nurse runs the ship. Players respect his gameplan. Nurse has Masai's respect which the players know. There is a culture and process.

Look no further than what Trent has done this year. The coaching staff challenged him. He responded. That's buying into your coaching staff.

No rookie gets that offensive role here. Takes time. What Barnes has already gotten/done is more than any rookie has in years in TO.

Gotta remember this isn't a young growing team. There is an established chain of command. Our top 3 players were a part of a title team here not 3 years ago. Whether we like it or not that's how its been. Now eventually those guys do get the opportunities. Norm great example.

But with entrenched performers and team leaders like Fred, Siakam and OG there. Nurse won't just had Barnes a key offensive role yet. Maybe later in the year, but not now.

Just my two cents. I try not to go against Nurse usually tbh. He's incredibly respected by some of the best players in the league. He's earned the benefit of the doubt IMO.

Just gotta be patient and let things breathe.

This isn't what a smart coach or a smart PG does when a teammate is clearly ready to contribute.

Rookie Boobie Gibson (a second round pick) got us to the NBA finals because LeBron didn't hesitate to get him the ball when Detroit sold out their defense to stop him.

Let's face some facts ... Lowry, Gasol, and Leonard are gone, and Siakam fell off a cliff. The Raptors just earned the #4 pick. You've got a new bunch finding their way and learning how to win together.

Ehh the first post is a weird take, being Barnes did get 19 shots, although from 6 ORebounds alot were off his own misses or tip ins, but really Barnes has 3 teams he'll struggle with. Cavs Nets and Bucks because they all have someone on the wing that's actually super huge and he can't shoot yet.

Our last two games just happened to be against the Cavs and Nets, as well as our lineup situation forces Barnes to play the 4.

There's a weird emphasis of creating your own shot which sure, I get when you got Leonard and Lowry. It aint working this year with FVV, OG and Trent all shooting sub 30% on pull up 3's.

And Barnes scores on like 70% unassisted so yeahhhhhhhhh.

[HumbleRen]

Suggs is just a weird player to evaluate, his handles is non existent and I don't know too many PG's who suddenly develop great handles after having below average handles for their entire basketball career.

His future is clearly at the SG position, a connector like Haliburton but less talented offensively but very strong defensively.
I think people who said Orlando should give up on Cole for Suggs will be quickly changing their tune throughout the year.

I'm not too worried about Green though, he has the bag to pull out moves effortlessly, he just needs a better feel for the game and to put on some grown man muscles.

[JonFromVA]

I wouldn't bother taking the majority opinion in there as anything. Many though Masai was a joke after taking Barnes. Most thought Norm for Trent was a pathetic loss of a trade. That board is hands down the most reactionary of all rand frankly, I question how many have even been watching more than 5-8 years.

This isn't a team where people do whatever they want. Nurse runs the ship. Players respect his gameplan. Nurse has Masai's respect which the players know. There is a culture and process.

Look no further than what Trent has done this year. The coaching staff challenged him. He responded. That's buying into your coaching staff.

No rookie gets that offensive role here. Takes time. What Barnes has already gotten/done is more than any rookie has in years in TO.

Gotta remember this isn't a young growing team. There is an established chain of command. Our top 3 players were a part of a title team here not 3 years ago. Whether we like it or not that's how its been. Now eventually those guys do get the opportunities. Norm great example.

But with entrenched performers and team leaders like Fred, Siakam and OG there. Nurse won't just had Barnes a key offensive role yet. Maybe later in the year, but not now.

Just my two cents. I try not to go against Nurse usually tbh. He's incredibly respected by some of the best players in the league. He's earned the benefit of the doubt IMO.

Just gotta be patient and let things breathe.

This isn't what a smart coach or a smart PG does when a teammate is clearly ready to contribute.

Rookie Boobie Gibson (a second round pick) got us to the NBA finals because LeBron didn't hesitate to get him the ball when Detroit sold out their defense to stop him.

Let's face some facts ... Lowry, Gasol, and Leonard are gone, and Siakam fell off a cliff. The Raptors just earned the #4 pick. You've got a new bunch finding their way and learning how to win together.

Ehh the first post is a weird take, being Barnes did get 19 shots, although from 6 ORebounds alot were off his own misses or tip ins, but really Barnes has 3 teams he'll struggle with. Cavs Nets and Bucks because they all have someone on the wing that's actually super huge and he can't shoot yet.

Our last two games just happened to be against the Cavs and Nets, as well as our lineup situation forces Barnes to play the 4.

There's a weird emphasis of creating your own shot which sure, I get when you got Leonard and Lowry. It aint working this year with FVV, OG and Trent all shooting sub 30% on pull up 3's.

And Barnes scores on like 70% unassisted so yeahhhhhhhhh.

You might need to dig back deeper in the thread to understand how it got there. 10giz was claiming the Raptors may have been simply doing what Nurse wanted of them to close out that game, and that he was intentionally holding back Scottie for his own.

I would suspect something a bit more nuanced, but I don't follow the Raptors and didn't want to get in to conjecture. I just recognized many Raptors fans in the game thread felt FVV was trying to do too much on his own.

[DCasey91]

10Giz has a fair point there’s an established pecking order at the Raptors and the seniors have continuity and years playing together.

Also both can do more when asked to but both are already doing a ton as is.

These are just small things in the end. Rookies will have poor/quiet games they are young and still adjusting to it. These two seem to have played NBA for years on end which is the most impressive thing to me.

Barnes getting more comfortable in the midrange and hone it in

Mobley getting more opportunity to show of his facilitating

Learn the right way (no doubt they will they have the aptitude and appetite and then some).

I’m more concerned with other rookies on bad teams. Bad habits/flaws in their game will sustain in the future if not nipped in the bud.

Antman at the Wolves for example hasn’t actually learned and implemented much. Goes beyond just raw stats.

If a rookie goes 1/8 in game 20, hasn’t done any defending or deferring sit him for a longer period on the bench. This is far from growing pains this is consequence. Kid your not doing the right thing have a rest.

[whitehops]

big week for cade's rookie matchups.

wednesday vs. green
friday vs. mobley
saturday vs. barnes

[JonFromVA]

10Giz has a fair point there’s an established pecking order at the Raptors and the seniors have continuity and years playing together.

Also both can do more when asked to but both are already doing a ton as is.

These are just small things in the end. Rookies will have poor/quiet games they are young and still adjusting to it. These two seem to have played NBA for years on end which is the most impressive thing to me.

Barnes getting more comfortable in the midrange and hone it in

Mobley getting more opportunity to show of his facilitating

Learn the right way (no doubt they will they have the aptitude and appetite and then some).

I’m more concerned with other rookies on bad teams. Bad habits/flaws in their game will sustain in the future if not nipped in the bud.

Antman at the Wolves for example hasn’t actually learned and implemented much. Goes beyond just raw stats.

If a rookie goes 1/8 in game 20, hasn’t done any defending or deferring sit him for a longer period on the bench. This is far from growing pains this is consequence. Kid your not doing the right thing have a rest.

I don't want to beat this point to death, but with Lowry gone, I think it's fair to question how well FVV can run a team and get teammates involved .vs. playing like a combo guard.

[HiRez]

NBA Rookie tracker through Nov. 8.



- Removed FPPG
- Removed PER
- Removed WS
- Added Win Shares per 48 (WS48)
- Added Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)
- Added Box Plus-Minus (BPM)
- Sort by BPM

[gbball]

This isn't what a smart coach or a smart PG does when a teammate is clearly ready to contribute.

Rookie Boobie Gibson (a second round pick) got us to the NBA finals because LeBron didn't hesitate to get him the ball when Detroit sold out their defense to stop him.

Let's face some facts ... Lowry, Gasol, and Leonard are gone, and Siakam fell off a cliff. The Raptors just earned the #4 pick. You've got a new bunch finding their way and learning how to win together.

Ehh the first post is a weird take, being Barnes did get 19 shots, although from 6 ORebounds alot were off his own misses or tip ins, but really Barnes has 3 teams he'll struggle with. Cavs Nets and Bucks because they all have someone on the wing that's actually super huge and he can't shoot yet.

Our last two games just happened to be against the Cavs and Nets, as well as our lineup situation forces Barnes to play the 4.

There's a weird emphasis of creating your own shot which sure, I get when you got Leonard and Lowry. It aint working this year with FVV, OG and Trent all shooting sub 30% on pull up 3's.

And Barnes scores on like 70% unassisted so yeahhhhhhhhh.

You might need to dig back deeper in the thread to understand how it got there. 10giz was claiming the Raptors may have been simply doing what Nurse wanted of them to close out that game, and that he was intentionally holding back Scottie for his own.

I would suspect something a bit more nuanced, but I don't follow the Raptors and didn't want to get in to conjecture. I just recognized many Raptors fans in the game thread felt FVV was trying to do too much on his own.

I'm seeing what you're seeing. I think Fred is trying to maintain the pecking order to some degree. Scottie seems ready, but I'm cool with him having to earn the respect. I've seen the opposite where the keys were handed over to quickly, too easily. Let Scottie pay his dues for a bit...but not for too long, and not in a way that stunts his development.

I would like to see him (Barnes) take more of the decision making responsibilities eventually, because he plays with no agenda and will feed the hot hand regardless of who it is. Fred does look like he's thinking about it too much out there and he's not necessarily taking what the defense gives them.

[gbball]

10Giz has a fair point there’s an established pecking order at the Raptors and the seniors have continuity and years playing together.

Also both can do more when asked to but both are already doing a ton as is.

These are just small things in the end. Rookies will have poor/quiet games they are young and still adjusting to it. These two seem to have played NBA for years on end which is the most impressive thing to me.

Barnes getting more comfortable in the midrange and hone it in

Mobley getting more opportunity to show of his facilitating

Learn the right way (no doubt they will they have the aptitude and appetite and then some).

I’m more concerned with other rookies on bad teams. Bad habits/flaws in their game will sustain in the future if not nipped in the bud.

Antman at the Wolves for example hasn’t actually learned and implemented much. Goes beyond just raw stats.

If a rookie goes 1/8 in game 20, hasn’t done any defending or deferring sit him for a longer period on the bench. This is far from growing pains this is consequence. Kid your not doing the right thing have a rest.

I don't want to beat this point to death, but with Lowry gone, I think it's fair to question how well FVV can run a team and get teammates involved .vs. playing like a combo guard.

We also have Flynn who hasn't gotten much burn this year, but I think he can step in and share the ball. He'll bring a different look from Fred. Love Fred by the way. Big shot taker and maker, and he can run the point...and will likely get better at it. But I think there are others on the team better suited. I hope he makes me change my mind.

[basketballRob]

NBA Rookie tracker through Nov. 8.



- Removed FPPG
- Removed PER
- Removed WS
- Added Win Shares per 48 (WS48)
- Added Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)
- Added Box Plus-Minus (BPM)
- Sort by BPM

Those are from basketball reference and most people refer to NBA.com for net rating and other advanced numbers. Suggs net rating on nba.com is -0.9.

Basketball reference isn't the best indicator of advanced stats.

Nice spreadsheet tho, I know you put it some work.


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[JonFromVA]

Ehh the first post is a weird take, being Barnes did get 19 shots, although from 6 ORebounds alot were off his own misses or tip ins, but really Barnes has 3 teams he'll struggle with. Cavs Nets and Bucks because they all have someone on the wing that's actually super huge and he can't shoot yet.

Our last two games just happened to be against the Cavs and Nets, as well as our lineup situation forces Barnes to play the 4.

There's a weird emphasis of creating your own shot which sure, I get when you got Leonard and Lowry. It aint working this year with FVV, OG and Trent all shooting sub 30% on pull up 3's.

And Barnes scores on like 70% unassisted so yeahhhhhhhhh.

You might need to dig back deeper in the thread to understand how it got there. 10giz was claiming the Raptors may have been simply doing what Nurse wanted of them to close out that game, and that he was intentionally holding back Scottie for his own.

I would suspect something a bit more nuanced, but I don't follow the Raptors and didn't want to get in to conjecture. I just recognized many Raptors fans in the game thread felt FVV was trying to do too much on his own.

I'm seeing what you're seeing. I think Fred is trying to maintain the pecking order to some degree. Scottie seems ready, but I'm cool with him having to earn the respect. I've seen the opposite where the keys were handed over to quickly, too easily. Let Scottie pay his dues for a bit...but not for too long, and not in a way that stunts his development.

I would like to see him (Barnes) take more of the decision making responsibilities eventually, because he plays with no agenda and will feed the hot hand regardless of who it is. Fred does look like he's thinking about it too much out there and he's not necessarily taking what the defense gives them.

To be clear my view isn't that FVV needs to hand the keys to Scottie, its more that Fred should involve his teammates including Scottie. Barnes low astd% is good in the sense it shows he can create, but it also indicates his teammates aren't setting him up much.

I don't take all those "easy" alley-opps that Rubio and Garland create for granted. I've seen way too many bigs fail to finish and too many guards telegraph their pass or fail to draw the D first.

[JonFromVA]

NBA Rookie tracker through Nov. 8.



- Removed FPPG
- Removed PER
- Removed WS
- Added Win Shares per 48 (WS48)
- Added Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)
- Added Box Plus-Minus (BPM)
- Sort by BPM

Those are from basketball reference and most people refer to NBA.com for net rating and other advanced numbers. Suggs net rating on nba.com is -0.9.

Basketball reference isn't the best indicator of advanced stats.

Nice spreadsheet tho, I know you put it some work.


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I thought that came down to that BBR included offensive rebounds and nba doesn't? If its a case if BBR estimating things that nba is measuring I'd go with the later.

[basketballRob]

NBA Rookie tracker through Nov. 8.



- Removed FPPG
- Removed PER
- Removed WS
- Added Win Shares per 48 (WS48)
- Added Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)
- Added Box Plus-Minus (BPM)
- Sort by BPM

Those are from basketball reference and most people refer to NBA.com for net rating and other advanced numbers. Suggs net rating on nba.com is -0.9.

Basketball reference isn't the best indicator of advanced stats.

Nice spreadsheet tho, I know you put it some work.


Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app

I thought that came down to that BBR included offensive rebounds and nba doesn't? If its a case if BBR estimating things that nba is measuring I'd go with the later.

BBR uses more of a team concept to come up with net rating. I lost the argument trying to defend BBR over NBA.com.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Sphynx]

Honestly Barnes and Mobley are levels above the rest of the field right now.

Giddey has been great for my fantasy team

Him and Franz have been exceeding expectations for sure but there nowhere near as good as Barnes & Mobley thus far.

"Nowhere near"?

6 assists a game (already top 20 in the league) is good going for the second youngest player in the entire league in his first 9 games.

Is Mobley the only other in this group that is top 20 in the league in a stat class? (Blocks per game - 17th)

Giddey is also top 30 in the league in steals per game also.

Barnes has shown to be a good defender, but I'm not sure the 4 points per game elevates him levels above Giddey who arguably has as much potential physical development as anyone in the group.

[Bruin]

Giddey has been great for my fantasy team

Him and Franz have been exceeding expectations for sure but there nowhere near as good as Barnes & Mobley thus far.

"Nowhere near"?

6 assists a game (already top 20 in the league) is good going for the second youngest player in the entire league in his first 9 games.

Is Mobley the only other in this group that is top 20 in the league in a stat class? (Blocks per game - 17th)

Giddey is also top 30 in the league in steals per game also.

Barnes has shown to be a good defender, but I'm not sure the 4 points per game elevates him levels above Giddey who arguably has as much potential physical development as anyone in the group.

Giddey is actually 35th in steals and 21st in assists

[Bruin]

Tomorrow we have Cade vs Green. Matchup of the top 2 picks

Jalen Green talked a whole lot about having a chip on his shoulder being taken 2nd so it’ll be interesting to see how that game goes

[Sphynx]

Him and Franz have been exceeding expectations for sure but there nowhere near as good as Barnes & Mobley thus far.

"Nowhere near"?

6 assists a game (already top 20 in the league) is good going for the second youngest player in the entire league in his first 9 games.

Is Mobley the only other in this group that is top 20 in the league in a stat class? (Blocks per game - 17th)

Giddey is also top 30 in the league in steals per game also.

Barnes has shown to be a good defender, but I'm not sure the 4 points per game elevates him levels above Giddey who arguably has as much potential physical development as anyone in the group.

Giddey is actually 35th in steals and 21st in assists

Basketball reference has him at 19 and 30.

[Bruin]

"Nowhere near"?

6 assists a game (already top 20 in the league) is good going for the second youngest player in the entire league in his first 9 games.

Is Mobley the only other in this group that is top 20 in the league in a stat class? (Blocks per game - 17th)

Giddey is also top 30 in the league in steals per game also.

Barnes has shown to be a good defender, but I'm not sure the 4 points per game elevates him levels above Giddey who arguably has as much potential physical development as anyone in the group.

Giddey is actually 35th in steals and 21st in assists

Basketball reference has him at 19 and 30.

Interesting. NBA.com has what I said. Idk which is most updated

[God Squad]

Read on Twitter

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My boy Suggs killing it he's all by himself... a league of his own!

I'm still waiting on him to show something, other than being a good defender.