LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

[G35]

The only "agenda" I have is figuring out who had better teammates, and who faced better teams, overall, in the Finals, for the sake of this discussion.

In other words, Veritas. Period.

Jordan played in a league decimated by expansion. Very weak/imbalanced league totally lacking parity, for 10 seasons.

Lebron's leagues never expanded, but he played in a total joke conference for 15 years. Weakest ever, historically, when compared to the other Conference.

I wasn't accusing you in particular of having a one sided agenda, I can generally see for myself who is doing what by what they write. LeBron's east was weak though idk about it being that much weaker than the west from 1980-1988 or comparing the teams he faced compared to the ones which Magic did during that run.

I agree, I hate agendas...its why mainstream media is trash because they cannot acknowledge certain truths. It always has to be framed to fit an agenda.

- Jordan did not have the toughest competition coming out of the East in the 90's
- expansion did dilute the talent in the NBA...they took two players from each team in an expansion draft...that is to be expected
- The East after Jordan retired in 98 became a wasteland with only the superteams holding it together
- The West in the 2000's and 2010's was a gauntlet many years just to get through the RS

You can't be anal retentive over favorable points and then brush aside unfavorable points...it comes off as disingenuous.

Just make strong points and let your argument hang off that. We all have our opinions and we can agree to disagree but being obtuse just has these things go in circles......

[ty 4191]

That’s called parity.

Expansion teams didn’t effect parity? The hell are you smoking?

Exactly.

Let's look at the last 10 years of Jordan's Bulls run (1989-1998) compared to the last 10 (full) years for Lebron James. All 29 or 30 teams. Overall team winning percentages tell the story of how deep and balanced the leagues were...

1989-1998:
Standard Deviation, σ: 0.131

Count, N: 29
Sum, Σx: 14.111
Mean, μ: 0.48658620689655
Variance, σ2: 0.017146449464923

10 out of 30 teams (33%) were below a .400 winning percentage, overall, those years. Three teams were over .650, overall. Three teams were below a .300 winning percentage.

2012-2021:
Standard Deviation, σ: 0.084

Count, N: 30
Sum, Σx: 14.997
Mean, μ: 0.4999
Variance, σ2: 0.0070713566666667


3 out of 30 teams (10%) were below a .400 winning percentage overall, those years. Zero teams below .300 overall. No teams were over. .655.

[conrad510]

[HeartBreakKid]

This is rating all their playoff opponents though - which isn't really relevant to why James did not win more rings. Lebron James hit a roadblock because of opponents from the West. So it would make more sense to see how his Western opponents rank against Jordan's. If Lebron James overall playoff competition is weaker, it would be because he faced more weak teams in his conference, but that that was not really the main reason why he did not have a better finals record then (which is the premise of the thread).


Lebron going to 10 finals means that he did better in the East than Jordan did. This is pretty much true if we look at how their careers went. Lebron being 4-6 in the finals means he did worse than Jordan did. That is pretty much true if we look at how their careers look.

Coincidentally, or not - Lebron James had easier competition in the East, and won the Eastern Conference more than Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan had easier competition in the NBA finals, and won the NBA Championship more than Lebron James.


I feel like this is not contradictory. Now I am not saying that this is the causation of why Lebron made more finals or why Jordan won more championships, but the statement sounds factually correct.




I also think the article uses manipulative language in the "Lebronian" paragraph, as they only cite one comparison (13 Pacers vs 15 Hawks) to make it seem like the gap between Jordan and James competition is large.

[conrad510]

How exactly does this particular season (2015) support your theory that Lebron teams underperform their talent level?

The 2015 Cavs were the preseason favorite because Love was all-nba and Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014, so they were considered a superior cast to Klay & Dray, who weren't even all-stars heading into the 2015 season.

But the Cavs only won 53 games despite having the most talent in the league, while the Warriors' won 67 games with lesser talent due to their superior strategy of ball movement..

A weaker brand of ball has always caused Lebron's teams to underperform their talent - his super-teams were the preseason favorite every year from 2011-2016, but fell to Finals underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle - if that isn't underachieving talent and expectation, then I don't know what is..

And Lebron is the only guy where all his sidekicks outplay the league MVP like Kyrie in the 2016 Finals or Bosh in 2011 ECF, or AD outplayed future MVP Jokic in the 2020 WCF (complete domination).. Ultimately, Lebron's super-teams from 2011-2016 were so unfair that KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.

[HeartBreakKid]

How exactly does this particular season (2015) support your theory that Lebron teams underperform their talent level?

The 2015 Cavs were the preseason favorite because Love was all-nba and Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014, so they were considered a superior cast to Klay & Dray, who weren't even all-stars heading into the 2015 season.

But the Cavs only won 53 games despite having the most talent in the league, while the Warriors' won 67 games with lesser talent due to their superior strategy of ball movement.. Lebron's super-teams were the preseason favorite every year from 2011-2016, but fell to Finals underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle - if that isn't underachieving talent and expectation, then I don't know what is..

And Lebron is the only guy where all his sidekicks outplay the league MVP like Kyrie in the 2016 Finals or Bosh in 2011 ECF, or AD outplayed future MVP Jokic in the 2020 WCF (complete domination).. Ultimately, Lebron's super-teams from 2011-2016 were so unfair that KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.

Oh, I thought you were actually trying to be objective until I read this.

[ty 4191]

That’s called parity.

Expansion teams didn’t effect parity? The hell are you smoking?

Exactly.

Let's look at the last 10 years of Jordan's Bulls run (1989-1998) compared to the last 10 (full) years for Lebron James. All 29 or 30 teams. Overall team winning percentages tell the story of how deep and balanced the leagues were...

1989-1998:
Standard Deviation, σ: 0.131

Count, N: 29
Sum, Σx: 14.111
Mean, μ: 0.48658620689655
Variance, σ2: 0.017146449464923

10 out of 30 teams (33%) were below a .400 winning percentage, overall, those years. Three teams were over .650, overall. Three teams were below a .300 winning percentage.

2012-2021:
Standard Deviation, σ: 0.084

Count, N: 30
Sum, Σx: 14.997
Mean, μ: 0.4999
Variance, σ2: 0.0070713566666667


3 out of 30 teams (10%) were below a .400 winning percentage overall, those years. Zero teams below .300 overall. No teams were over. .655.

[conrad510]

Lebron going to 10 finals means that he did better in the East than Jordan did.

Lebron couldn't make the Finals as the league favorite in 2009 and 2010 - when did Lebron start making multiple Finals? Only after "the decision" to form super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning

Lebron had 1 Finals run like Iverson, Kidd or Dwight until he formed super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.

But I'm not being objective, yet you're ignoring that Lebron teamed up to start making Finals - I'm sure Dwight would've made a bunch of Finals with Wade/Bosh since he was already making the Finals without them

[Djoker]

Obviously this is a simplistic way of looking at things but the numbers do tell a story.

Based on preseason odds, Lebron's teams were title favorites 7 times (2011-2016, 2021) and walked away with 4 rings.
Based on preseason odds, Jordan's teams were title favorites 5 times (1992-1993, 1996-1998) and walked away with 6 rings.

Lebron clearly underachieved. Even if we give him a pass for 2015 for his teammate's injuries his record still leaves a lot to be desired. 2011 he lost as a favorite going into the series and had one of the most horrible performances ever. In 2014, he came into the series as a very slight underdog at +135 and got annihilated while putting up a lot of empty numbers. And even in 2017 where he almost universally gets a pass, the Cavs weren't even huge underdogs going into the finals at +250. That's the thing about Lebron... even in years where he should have lost and wasn't the title favorite like 2007, 2017 and 2018 he didn't just lose but his teams got obliterated.

So yes 6-0 is a lot more impressive than 4-6 in this case. Not from the standpoint of winning 2 more rings but just from Jordan overachieving vs. Lebron underachieving.

[conrad510]

How exactly does this particular season (2015) support your theory that Lebron teams underperform their talent level?

The 2015 Cavs were the preseason favorite because Love was all-nba and Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014, so they were considered a superior cast to Klay & Dray, who weren't even all-stars heading into the 2015 season.

But the Cavs only won 53 games despite having the most talent in the league, while the Warriors' won 67 games with lesser talent due to their superior strategy of ball movement..

A weaker brand of ball has always caused Lebron's teams to underperform their talent - his super-teams were the preseason favorite every year from 2011-2016, but fell to Finals underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle - if that isn't underachieving talent and expectation, then I don't know what is..

And Lebron is the only guy where all his sidekicks outplay the league MVP like Kyrie in the 2016 Finals or Bosh in 2011 ECF, or AD outplayed future MVP Jokic in the 2020 WCF (complete domination).. Ultimately, Lebron's super-teams from 2011-2016 were so unfair that KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.
.

Oh, I thought you were actually trying to be objective until I read this.

Lebron literally hand-picked the preseason favorite every year from 2011-2016

How is that not unfair and lording over the league?

Of course somebody did something about it and KD should be applauded for fighting fire with fire

[conrad510]

The 2009 Cavs had the #3 defense in the league, compared to #19 for the 90' Bulls, while Mo Williams was superior to Pippen across the board offensively (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).

This matters because it means that Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 1991, while Lebron lost in 2010 after Jamison/Shaq were added to his 66-win league juggernaut.. Then Lebron lost again in 2011 before finally winning in 2012.

People forget that In 2005, Gilbert Arenas and Larry Hughes made the 2nd Round (Hughes averaged 22/5/5), but then Lebron stole Hughes to beat Arenas in 2006.. So Lebron almost always had better casts than his Eastern opponents.. He infact failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low seeds in 04', 05', or 19', and therefore only had high seeds/good teams in the playoffs.. Lebron infact got 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, while MJ was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 and forced to carry 8 seeds..

[falcolombardi]

i think you guys dont realize that a single super opponent is a bigger obstacle to winning a ring than 3 very good ones

playing a 50 win team in first round two 55 win teams later then a 60 win team in the finals is easier and would be prefered by any Gm vs playing 3 45 win teams then a 70 win team in the finals

the 98 bulls won a ring in the 98 east, they wouldnt win a ring in the 2017 east... or maybe not the 2016 east for that matter either

focusing in average srs of the whole run majes you miss the forest for the trees

[falcolombardi]

Obviously this is a simplistic way of looking at things but the numbers do tell a story.

Based on preseason odds, Lebron's teams were title favorites 7 times (2011-2016, 2021) and walked away with 4 rings.
Based on preseason odds, Jordan's teams were title favorites 5 times (1992-1993, 1996-1998) and walked away with 6 rings.

Lebron clearly underachieved. Even if we give him a pass for 2015 for his teammate's injuries his record still leaves a lot to be desired. 2011 he lost as a favorite going into the series and had one of the most horrible performances ever. In 2014, he came into the series as a very slight underdog at +135 and got annihilated while putting up a lot of empty numbers. And even in 2017 where he almost universally gets a pass, the Cavs weren't even huge underdogs going into the finals at +250. That's the thing about Lebron... even in years where he should have lost and wasn't the title favorite like 2007, 2017 and 2018 he didn't just lose but his teams got obliterated.

So yes 6-0 is a lot more impressive than 4-6 in this case. Not from the standpoint of winning 2 more rings but just from Jordan overachieving vs. Lebron underachieving.

vegas preseason odds are not the ultimate way of evaluating talent but even if they were you wouldnt be telling the whole story here

for starters 2015 imjuries are definitely somethingh to consider unless you think jordan could have lost pippen and rodman and still beat the 97 jazz (who was not even quite as good as the actual 2015 warriors)

for 2021 i would argue lebron playing hurt and davis missing half a series (that lakers were winnin) against a near champion is hardly a exampe of underachieving anymmore than 95 is for jordan, to say nothing of how we have no idea how well would 36 years old jordan body woould have held up in a real life compressed season like 2021 was (since jordan literally was retired at that age)

2016 warriors were definietely not the underdog in 2016 finals.....

and 2014 spurs had the much stronger season and health than 2014 heat so the heatles didnt go there as favorites by actual numbers and analysis

when healthy lebron went 4 of 5 meaning his only great underachievement was 2011 which is a black mark for sure but even without that season lebron has more prime seasons as jordan anyway, if that whole season had been lost to injury lebron actually would look better in people minds and woud¿ld still have a comparable prime to jordan

you say that 2014 was empty stats which sounds like saying that any series that was a big loss was empty stats (85-88 jordan for example) or that 2017 was a underperformance because for some reason he was given good odds against a 73 win team plus durant....the fact people looked at that super juggernaut and still gave lebron decent odds is fairly impressive if anythingh

[falcolombardi]

The 2009 Cavs had the #3 defense in the league, compared to #19 for the 90' Bulls, while Mo Williams was superior to Pippen across the board offensively (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).

This matters because it means that Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 1991, while Lebron lost in 2010 after Jamison/Shaq were added to his 66-win league juggernaut.. Then Lebron lost again in 2011 before finally winning in 2012.

People forget that In 2005, Gilbert Arenas and Larry Hughes made the 2nd Round (Hughes averaged 22/5/5), but then Lebron stole Hughes to beat Arenas in 2006.. So Lebron almost always had better casts than his Eastern opponents.. He infact failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low seeds in 04', 05', or 19', and therefore only had high seeds/good teams in the playoffs.. Lebron infact got 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, while MJ was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 and forced to carry 8 seeds..

nobody is gonna agree with mo williams over scottie pippen, literally nobody, scottie improvement trhough the 90 seasons is why the bulls became a real peer to pistons that year, chicago carried pippen and grant improvement trhough the 90 season (which can be seen by comparing both halves of the season for chicago, their second half of the season offense was as good as their 91 offense) towards a dominating 91 season, that same year detroit got significatively worse by a good margin (visible in srs and win record) which helped bulls get a easy win

you also act like jamison and specially shaq were in their primes and not a shadow of themselves and arguably net negative in shaq case, may as well say jordan in 97 had a big 4 of jordan, pippen, rodman and parish

lebron didnt carry bad seed teams because he joined the league 3 years younger than jordan, by the time he made a leap in 2006 he was too good to take the cavs only to a low seed, jordan also made the playoffs with 30 win record once....that easy was to make the playoffs in a era where 16 of 23 teams made the playoffs

[conrad510]

empty stats (85-88 jordan for example)

It's hard to knock Jordan's career because you have to attack the first few years of his career, when nearly everyone loses - Durant, Lebron, Giannis and Curry were lottery in their first few years - so people like to weaponize a coincidence - the only time Jordan didn't win is the time period that no one wins for the most part.

Btw, Jordan carried an 8 ppg rookie to 50 wins and the 2nd Round in 1988, while Lebron couldn't make the 2006 playoffs without the East all-star center and a 22/6/5 acquisition plus the future Coach of the Year.. Lebron actually had 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'..

And he never really "toned it down" to win because he was scoring champ for every title and he averaged 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs and 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals - so he was scoring more than ever to win (41 ppg in the 93' Finals).. Otoh, guys like Lebron or Kobe must tone it down to win and can't win with super-high scoring.. Jordan was a big assist target off-ball, so his high scoring still elevated teammates, while Kobe and Lebron were a little more ball-dominant (reduce teammates to spot-up roles).

[falcolombardi]

empty stats (85-88 jordan for example)

It's hard to knock Jordan's career because you have to attack the first few years of his career, when nearly everyone loses - Durant, Lebron, Giannis and Curry were lottery in their first few years - so people like to weaponize a coincidence - the only time Jordan didn't win is the time period that no one wins for the most part.

Btw, Jordan carried an 8 ppg rookie to 50 wins and the 2nd Round in 1988, while Lebron couldn't make the 2006 playoffs without the East all-star center and a 22/6/5 acquisition plus the future Coach of the Year.. Lebron actually had 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'..

i would be thankful if you quoted me with context, i didnt accuse young jordan of empty stats, rather made a commment that it seemed like djoker was equaling any great series that reulted in a big series loss as empty stats, hence the comparision with younger jordan

2006 lebron had the same age as jordan in his last season with north carolina, the 88 comparision would be actually 2010, a 61 win season

[thebigbird]

empty stats (85-88 jordan for example)

It's hard to knock Jordan's career because you have to attack the first few years of his career, when nearly everyone loses - Durant, Lebron, Giannis and Curry were lottery in their first few years - so people like to weaponize a coincidence - the only time Jordan didn't win is the time period that no one wins for the most part.

Btw, Jordan carried an 8 ppg rookie to 50 wins and the 2nd Round in 1988, while Lebron couldn't make the 2006 playoffs without the East all-star center and a 22/6/5 acquisition plus the future Coach of the Year.. Lebron actually had 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'..

What are you even talking about? LeBron made the playoffs in his third season. He carried his team to a winning record in his second season. It took Jordan four years to have a winning record. In LeBron’s second season, his team went 42-40. Sorry that he didn’t play in such a weak NBA that a 30-52 record got you into the playoffs like it did during Jordan’s second year.

LeBron’s fourth season in the NBA he carried a bunch of scrubs to the NBA finals. In Jordan’s fourth season he won 50 games and lost in the second round.

[cpower]

LeBron James led the 2015 Cavaliers to 2 wins against the Warriors ..

i dont understand what you said here, are you saying Curry is a better player than Lebron and Lebron pulled some upset?
you realized 15 Warriors had no experience and Klay basically did not do anything in the finals and they still beat the cavs right?

[conrad510]

empty stats (85-88 jordan for example)

It's hard to knock Jordan's career because you have to attack the first few years of his career, when nearly everyone loses - Durant, Lebron, Giannis and Curry were lottery in their first few years - so people like to weaponize a coincidence - the only time Jordan didn't win is the time period that no one wins for the most part.

Btw, Jordan carried an 8 ppg rookie to 50 wins and the 2nd Round in 1988, while Lebron couldn't make the 2006 playoffs without the East all-star center and a 22/6/5 acquisition plus the future Coach of the Year.. Lebron actually had 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'..

i would be thankful if you quoted me with context, i didnt accuse young jordan of empty stats, rather made a commment that it seemed like djoker was equaling any great series that reulted in a big series loss as empty stats, hence the comparision with younger jordan

2006 lebron had the same age as jordan in his last season with north carolina, the 88 comparision would be actually 2010, a 61 win season

2004 Cavs.... 0 all-stars
2005 Cavs.... 2 all-stars
2006 Cavs.... added a 22/5/5 acquisition and the future COY


^^^ that's a lot of improvement over 3 years

Accordingly, years of experience matters more than age because Lebron was lottery in 04' and 05', which gave him 3 seasons to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the playoffs for the first time in 2006.. Otoh, Jordan was a couple years older but didn't get any time to develop his teams - his teams were thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 as 8 seeds, and therefore underperformed Lebron's veteran high seeds.

But when Jordan had 3 healthy seasons to develop the Bulls (1988), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron....

The difference is that Jordan was carrying rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win it, while Lebron had the East all-star center and a high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.

Btw, the 2009 Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo Williams was superior to Pippen across the board offensively (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, scoring, efficiency).. This matters because it shows that Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.. Then he lost again in 2011 before finally winning in 2012.. So the facts clearly show Jordan's superiority.

[falcolombardi]

LeBron James led the 2015 Cavaliers to 2 wins against the Warriors ..

i dont understand what you said here, are you saying Curry is a better player than Lebron and Lebron pulled some upset?
you realized 15 Warriors had no experience and Klay basically did not do anything in the finals and they still beat the cavs right?

there is a exponential difference between draymond, klay and iguodala vs mozgov, dellavedova and jr smith, the latter 3 not exactly with tons of finals experience either

to say nothing of it being a season riddle with back issues and a down year for lebron