The Importance of Center Play

[Tor_Raps]

Wtf. I have to wonder how you watch that game, where they play the same size centre as we do, and this is what people complain about.

Pretty easy to see we didn't shoot well, turned it over too much and our bench was absolute garbage. Even with the first two we might even have found a way to win if the bench didn't just completely stink.

I'm wondering what the hell you're watching if you think Williams and Horford are the same size as Siakam and Barnes. It was clear as hell that they totally dominated us inside with their size. Williams had several putbacks and offensive rebounds where he didn't even have to jump.

Oh and newsflash, the things you said we didn't do well, we haven't done well practically all season. We've had our rebounding and defense allow us to take several more shots per game than the opposing teams. This is what has kept us in games.

So please actually watch the games before you accuse others of not doing so. Or maybe you just struggle to understand basketball...

How many?

I posted this elsewhere, but I have screen caps of every OREB in the first 7 of the 8. In all of them, a C could do 0.

OREB#1

Spoiler:

Scottie cheats too much on Horford, despite OG getting a good contest on the PostUp. Balls bounces weakside, Williams dunks.

OREB#2

Spoiler:

PnR, Spicy gets lost, leaving a 2v1 on Socttie down low. Spicy instead of going to the other big as Scottie picks up Horford, leaves FVV alone trying to crack down, and hes on Williams back hopoing SPicy gets a body on him, he doesnt. Pass out the 3, FVV forced to contest, Spicy with the worst boxout in NBA history, easy OREB.

OREB#3

Spoiler:

4v2 (with GTJ in a light jog geting back) in transition. Achiuwa makes the right read to contest it leaves FVV boxing out Williams. Easy 2.

OREB#4

Spoiler:

FVV with some pathetic D on a slip screen, forces Boucher to crack down to contest Smart, and Scottie slides over. Pass to the cutter, and Boucher contests, which leaves FVV boxing out Williams. Another easy 2.

OREB#5

Spoiler:

Drive by Grant, hits the corner, were rotating, ball find Tatum guarded by Spicy, he bites on the stutter step and contests the 3. Boucher doesnt put a body on him, long board strong side.

OREB#6

Spoiler:

Shot from the 3, Scottie boxing out, but we need GTJ to be tighter on the crackdown so Williams has nowhere to go, he doesnt it bounces over Scottie, easy OREB.

OREB#7

Spoiler:

Same play, off the OREB, scramble ensues, Tatum finds the ball and again SPicy with 0 defense. Scottie comes over to help and contest, beautifully. Williams who was looking for the lob had GTJ on his back and the bad miss by Tatum (doesnt touch the rim, shouldnt have been an OREB), falls into WIlliams hands, another easy 2.

And thats 7 OREBs in the first half, we did much better at containing that in the second half (only 3 OREBs). We have a system that is reliant on guys covering the dunkers position (esp smalls), because we always help on penetration. Youre going to give up alot of Iverson ASTs, if guys like Spicy plays that bad defensively on the perimeter.

Maybe you should watch the game?? Or understand/identify what you are seeing??

Dude, I'm not going over every offensive rebound but if you think using Siakam at Center instead of a real Center didn't have much to do with Williams feasting on us then I don't know what to say to you. We have a full sample size of Siakam at Center that led us to being one of the worst rebounding teams last year and yet you want to go down this road.

Not only does it kill you on the boards but it also throws your defense out of whack when you're constantly having to over help because of mismatches. Then even if you can rotate, you might get outmatched by the player you end up having to switch to.

The whole point is that we were the 2nd best regular season team when we had good center play with Ibaka/Gasol and every time we go away from that, we become abysmal. Birch even an average NBA player makes our team look amazing. This is all not a coincidence.

[Tor_Raps]

Lot of posters needed a reality check with Achiuwa. Guy is still a raw prospect. In MLB or NHL, he'd be in the minors 100%. Overhyped and he's got clear selfish tendencies.

It's totally because Masai traded the best player in our franchise for him all while picking up a 19.5M tab on Dragic so he can sit on the bench.

People just assume that Precious has to be a star in the making because that's one stupidly expensive prospect, and more often than not Masai has been right.

would you have preferred nothing in exchange for KLow? Precious was a first round draft pick & is definitely outperforming his pick (#20). he's not ready yet - we're prioritizing giving the young guys run so he can be ready when we need him to be

the focus this year is not winning games by all means. it's winning games WHILE prioritizing development

I'm mentioning why people were high on Precious coming into this season. Masai clearly values Precious a lot for him picking up a 19.5M tab of a player who initially didn't want to be here and then we don't care to have any longer. You can buy draft picks for a lot cheaper.

Like I said, Masai deserves the benefit of the doubt so I'm not writing Precious off at all in the long term. He should clearly be in the G League learning the fundamentals of basketball since he makes a lot of really dumb plays. But because our center depth is extremely bad, Precious is learning with the big club while costing our team in the present.

I've always felt the right time to trade Lowry was the same time we decided to let Ibaka walk. We clearly weren't trying to win last year and even if we wanted to go after Giannis, we were not going to be able to re-sign Lowry anyways. This was just poorly executed by Masai/Webster to the point we had to accept peanuts for Lowry.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Dude, I'm not going over every offensive rebound but if you think using Siakam at Center instead of a real Center didn't have much to do with Williams feasting on us then I don't know what to say to you. We have a full sample size of Siakam at Center that led us to being one of the worst rebounding teams last year and yet you want to go down this road.

Not only does it kill you on the boards but it also throws your defense out of whack when you're constantly having to over help because of mismatches. Then even if you can rotate, you might get outmatched by the player you end up having to switch to.

The whole point is that we were the 2nd best regular season team when we had good center play with Ibaka/Gasol and every time we go away from that, we become abysmal. Birch even an average NBA player makes our team look amazing. This is all not a coincidence.

I appreciate you admitting you were wrong, thank you.

[Tor_Raps]

Dude, I'm not going over every offensive rebound but if you think using Siakam at Center instead of a real Center didn't have much to do with Williams feasting on us then I don't know what to say to you. We have a full sample size of Siakam at Center that led us to being one of the worst rebounding teams last year and yet you want to go down this road.

Not only does it kill you on the boards but it also throws your defense out of whack when you're constantly having to over help because of mismatches. Then even if you can rotate, you might get outmatched by the player you end up having to switch to.

The whole point is that we were the 2nd best regular season team when we had good center play with Ibaka/Gasol and every time we go away from that, we become abysmal. Birch even an average NBA player makes our team look amazing. This is all not a coincidence.

I appreciate you admitting you were wrong, thank you.

LOL difference between being wrong and not wanting to go through play by play on a message board via your phone. It's too hard to have that type of conversation especially when I already have TONS of data backing up my points rather than a few isolated plays with your interpretation of how the play broke down.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Dude, I'm not going over every offensive rebound but if you think using Siakam at Center instead of a real Center didn't have much to do with Williams feasting on us then I don't know what to say to you. We have a full sample size of Siakam at Center that led us to being one of the worst rebounding teams last year and yet you want to go down this road.

Not only does it kill you on the boards but it also throws your defense out of whack when you're constantly having to over help because of mismatches. Then even if you can rotate, you might get outmatched by the player you end up having to switch to.

The whole point is that we were the 2nd best regular season team when we had good center play with Ibaka/Gasol and every time we go away from that, we become abysmal. Birch even an average NBA player makes our team look amazing. This is all not a coincidence.

I appreciate you admitting you were wrong, thank you.

LOL difference between being wrong and not wanting to go through play by play on a message board via your phone. It's too hard to have that type of conversation especially when I already have TONS of data backing up my points rather than a few isolated plays with your interpretation of how the play broke down.

Ohhh data points, well lets dig deeper shall we??

Last yr....
with Baynes (6'10, 260) , the team REB% was 48.4% while on the court.
with Len (7'0, 270), the team REB% was 45.9% while on the court.
with Birch (6'9, 233), the team REB% was 49.1% while on the court.

This yr....
The team REB% is 7th in the L, at 51.4%.

But its just Birch you say??
with Precious on the court its +50.8%.

People can make these statements it just doesnt bear out.

Also, I get it, no matter how it changes our newly installed offense/defensive philosophies, you want some traditional big rather than some innovative team who in their DEVELOPMENTAL years tries news things.

Look, this team has alot to clean up in terms of sloppy execution, but this team has yet to be fully healthy, is integrating a former allstar who missed camp and has been back 2 days, a bunch of rooks and 2-3 yr players, and we should just be great.

Our Cs or bigs as we call them in modern NBA, are fine. Precious needs to stop missing bunnies, because hes been ELITE defensively. Birch has been great too, but in a more positional way. What we need has little to do with going back to an old era of basketball, and more to do with effort and execution, as I showed in the OREBs ppl are complaining about.

[WaltFrazier]

Ibaka was about Giannis, Gasol was washed. It always comes down to Who could we have realistically acquired to replace them? Otherwise this is just wishful thinking. Im sure Masai and Webster would love a good centre to fill out this rotaiton

Birch is solid, he fills the role well enough for now.

Agree about Birch but he's not a 40 minute player. We need another Birch to always have a solid center on the floor.

Boston has 2 actual centers in Horford and Williams, not to mention a 3rd C in Kanter as insurance. Horford can shoot and block shots, Williams is only 6'9 but plays bigger because he can jump. He is what we wish Achiuwa was. They have a balanced roster.

No one in Boston is saying Tatum is 6'10, let's play him at center. But so many posters here say let OG or Siakam or Barnes do it.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Ibaka was about Giannis, Gasol was washed. It always comes down to Who could we have realistically acquired to replace them? Otherwise this is just wishful thinking. Im sure Masai and Webster would love a good centre to fill out this rotaiton

Birch is solid, he fills the role well enough for now.

Agree about Birch but he's not a 40 minute player. We need another Birch to always have a solid center on the floor.

Boston has 2 actual centers in Horford and Williams, not to mention a 3rd C in Kanter as insurance. Horford can shoot and block shots, Williams is only 6'9 but plays bigger because he can jump. He is what we wish Achiuwa was. They have a balanced roster.

No one in Boston is saying Tatum is 6'10, let's play him at center. But so many posters here say let OG or Siakam or Barnes do it.

Tatum is 210. OG is 235. Scottie/Pascal are 230.

Which one is not like the others??

[WaltFrazier]

Current solution is to take out Trent or Barnes to put Birch in.

I think it’s safe to say that that unpopular opinion is to put Barnes on the bench but it shouldn’t matter as long as cohesion is rock solid for the bench and the starters. It’s who ends the game rather than start the game.

Birch is probably the glue guy now who does everything no one wants to do. Cut to the middle of the paint for east baskets/push shots/floaters

I'd probably say Barnes because he can more easily get shots that way, plus he'd be playing against the other bench which should make it even easier for him.

Plus it should provide better shooting for the starting lineup, and he can still get 30 minutes.

I'd prefer to see the lineup of Fred-OG-Barnes-Siakam-Birch before I decide to take out our best player thus far from the starting lineup. I understand the shooting is ugly but the defense/rebounding potential is insane.

Yes and we haven't seen the effectiveness of our D since Pascal came back because the three of Pascal OG and Barnes are never on with a center. I hope they play those 3 with Birch when Khem returns.. Then we will see the full effect of all our length on D

[Yeezus_]

Wtf. I have to wonder how you watch that game, where they play the same size centre as we do, and this is what people complain about.

Pretty easy to see we didn't shoot well, turned it over too much and our bench was absolute garbage. Even with the first two we might even have found a way to win if the bench didn't just completely stink.

Honestly have the same thoughts. It has nothing to do with having some sort of traditional centre.

[Los_29]

Lot of posters needed a reality check with Achiuwa. Guy is still a raw prospect. In MLB or NHL, he'd be in the minors 100%. Overhyped and he's got clear selfish tendencies.

It's totally because Masai traded the best player in our franchise for him all while picking up a 19.5M tab on Dragic so he can sit on the bench.

People just assume that Precious has to be a star in the making because that's one stupidly expensive prospect, and more often than not Masai has been right.

Lowry was a free agent.

[WaltFrazier]

Ibaka was about Giannis, Gasol was washed. It always comes down to Who could we have realistically acquired to replace them? Otherwise this is just wishful thinking. Im sure Masai and Webster would love a good centre to fill out this rotaiton

Birch is solid, he fills the role well enough for now.

Agree about Birch but he's not a 40 minute player. We need another Birch to always have a solid center on the floor.

Boston has 2 actual centers in Horford and Williams, not to mention a 3rd C in Kanter as insurance. Horford can shoot and block shots, Williams is only 6'9 but plays bigger because he can jump. He is what we wish Achiuwa was. They have a balanced roster.

No one in Boston is saying Tatum is 6'10, let's play him at center. But so many posters here say let OG or Siakam or Barnes do it.

Tatum is 210. OG is 235. Scottie/Pascal are 230.

Which one is not like the others??

They are still not centers, period. Watch OG guard Randle vs Knicks, that's what he's elite at not post defense

[Kurtz]

I'm mentioning why people were high on Precious coming into this season. Masai clearly values Precious a lot for him picking up a 19.5M tab of a player who initially didn't want to be here and then we don't care to have any longer. You can buy draft picks for a lot cheaper.

Not really. First rounders aren't available for cash anymore. The last time a first was sold for cash was in 2013 (27th overall, some really tall French guy).

Best you can do is occasionally buy a 2nd rounder, usually in the second half of the 2nd round.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Agree about Birch but he's not a 40 minute player. We need another Birch to always have a solid center on the floor.

Boston has 2 actual centers in Horford and Williams, not to mention a 3rd C in Kanter as insurance. Horford can shoot and block shots, Williams is only 6'9 but plays bigger because he can jump. He is what we wish Achiuwa was. They have a balanced roster.

No one in Boston is saying Tatum is 6'10, let's play him at center. But so many posters here say let OG or Siakam or Barnes do it.

Tatum is 210. OG is 235. Scottie/Pascal are 230.

Which one is not like the others??

They are still not centers, period. Watch OG guard Randle vs Knicks, that's what he's elite at not post defense

who cares about "centers", they are bigs.

OG is holding PostUps to 60 points per 100 possessions. Define elite??

[Tor_Raps]

I'm mentioning why people were high on Precious coming into this season. Masai clearly values Precious a lot for him picking up a 19.5M tab of a player who initially didn't want to be here and then we don't care to have any longer. You can buy draft picks for a lot cheaper.

Not really. First rounders aren't available for cash anymore. The last time a first was sold for cash was in 2013 (27th overall, some really tall French guy).

Best you can do is occasionally buy a 2nd rounder, usually in the second half of the 2nd round.

There have been teams who have traded their pick at the bottom of the 1st round to avoid the luxury tax. You are right that this is more often done with 2nd round picks though.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I'm mentioning why people were high on Precious coming into this season. Masai clearly values Precious a lot for him picking up a 19.5M tab of a player who initially didn't want to be here and then we don't care to have any longer. You can buy draft picks for a lot cheaper.

Not really. First rounders aren't available for cash anymore. The last time a first was sold for cash was in 2013 (27th overall, some really tall French guy).

Best you can do is occasionally buy a 2nd rounder, usually in the second half of the 2nd round.

There have been teams who have traded their pick at the bottom of the 1st round to avoid the luxury tax. You are right that this is more often done with 2nd round picks though.

Name them?

[Tor_Raps]

Tatum is 210. OG is 235. Scottie/Pascal are 230.

Which one is not like the others??

They are still not centers, period. Watch OG guard Randle vs Knicks, that's what he's elite at not post defense

who cares about "centers", they are bigs.

OG is holding PostUps to 60 points per 100 possessions. Define elite??

Siakam is extremely skinny and probably weighs the exact same as Tatum. There is no chance there's a 25 pound difference between the two.

OG is 60 points per 100 possessions because he's been guarding centers or wings all season? What does that have to do with anything here?

Regardless, OG/Siakam/Barnes are all better when they are on the perimeter where they can use size/length/speed. Sticking them in the paint full time is a horrible idea and has not worked whatsoever. We've seen Siakam at C for over a year and it just doesn't work.

We have the horses to be truly elite defensively but having them over compensate regularly because they are undersized in the paint makes them look worse than they are. And the crazy part is that we're only talking about the regular season here. Imagine the playoffs when the pace slows down completely and half court offense/defense matters more. Teams would wreck us even more.

[Tor_Raps]

Not really. First rounders aren't available for cash anymore. The last time a first was sold for cash was in 2013 (27th overall, some really tall French guy).

Best you can do is occasionally buy a 2nd rounder, usually in the second half of the 2nd round.

There have been teams who have traded their pick at the bottom of the 1st round to avoid the luxury tax. You are right that this is more often done with 2nd round picks though.

Name them?

Quick check and I am wrong on this. There were rumours of teams selling 1st round picks but it hasn't actually happened since Gobert in 2013. Other trades just involve trading of picks to later drafts or for a couple of 2nd round picks.

[vini_vidi_vici]

They are still not centers, period. Watch OG guard Randle vs Knicks, that's what he's elite at not post defense

who cares about "centers", they are bigs.

OG is holding PostUps to 60 points per 100 possessions. Define elite??

Siakam is extremely skinny and probably weighs the exact same as Tatum. There is no chance there's a 25 pound difference between the two.

OG is 60 points per 100 possessions because he's been guarding centers or wings all season? What does that have to do with anything here?

Regardless, OG/Siakam/Barnes are all better when they are on the perimeter where they can use size/length/speed. Sticking them in the paint full time is a horrible idea and has not worked whatsoever. We've seen Siakam at C for over a year and it just doesn't work.

We have the horses to be truly elite defensively but having them over compensate regularly because they are undersized in the paint makes them look worse than they are. And the crazy part is that we're only talking about the regular season here. Imagine the playoffs when the pace slows down completely and half court offense/defense matters more. Teams would wreck us even more.

So your argument is, the listed measurements are wrong. That OG is elite defensively at PostUps, but holding "bigs" to 72 points per 100 is bad? And regardless youre going to inject some conjecture, because now instead of asking for data points, you provide 0.

Who said anything about sticking anyone in the paint?

We havent seen Siakam at the C for a full yr, nor will we ever.

Who cares about the Ws/Ls/POs with such a young team in a developmental yr.

Your points are conjecture/strawmen, and not worth my time. If you arent going to address my points (backed by data, as YOU requested), then im done here.

[ItsDanger]

I recall Cleveland paying Detroit (via Bucks) for Kevin Porter Jr plus 2nd round picks, 30th overall which requires 1st round contract. Im sure there are other examples.

[Tor_Raps]

who cares about "centers", they are bigs.

OG is holding PostUps to 60 points per 100 possessions. Define elite??

Siakam is extremely skinny and probably weighs the exact same as Tatum. There is no chance there's a 25 pound difference between the two.

OG is 60 points per 100 possessions because he's been guarding centers or wings all season? What does that have to do with anything here?

Regardless, OG/Siakam/Barnes are all better when they are on the perimeter where they can use size/length/speed. Sticking them in the paint full time is a horrible idea and has not worked whatsoever. We've seen Siakam at C for over a year and it just doesn't work.

We have the horses to be truly elite defensively but having them over compensate regularly because they are undersized in the paint makes them look worse than they are. And the crazy part is that we're only talking about the regular season here. Imagine the playoffs when the pace slows down completely and half court offense/defense matters more. Teams would wreck us even more.

So your argument is, the listed measurements are wrong. That OG is elite defensively at PostUps, but holding "bigs" to 72 points per 100 is bad? And regardless youre going to inject some conjecture, because now instead of asking for data points, you provide 0.

Who said anything about sticking anyone in the paint?

We havent seen Siakam at the C for a full yr, nor will we ever.

Who cares about the Ws/Ls/POs with such a young team in a developmental yr.

Your points are conjecture/strawmen, and not worth my time. If you arent going to address my points (backed by data, as YOU requested), then im done here.

Are the numbers you provided considering OG only going against Centers? OG is elite defensively overall against SF/PF, which is what he's been doing this season. You cannot extrapolate that and assume it will be the same against all centers. Yes, hes done well against Jokic in that one matchup but I would not consider this a long term solution since there's more to defense at the center spot than 1 on 1 defense. Help side defense is probably the most important attribute for a center and that is not something OG can do in the paint effectively.

All this doesn't even take into consideration that other defenders have to sag off their defenders more to help OG in the paint if he were guarding Centers. This leaves more open shots for the opponent and causes more defensive rotations that mess up our alignment.

My whole argument has been that we need to play with another traditional center like Birch since he can't play 48 minutes. Precious may get there one day but he is clearly not up to par for the time being. Using Siakam at C other than desperate situations should be forbidden.