2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation

[Slim Charless]

I hate to say it, but I could see D.A. thinking about pulling his "I don't want to be here" card with all the smoke of the Sarver story + how Ben Simmons has handled his multi-year max contract.

I really hope not.

But the kid has improved his game tremendously, done 95% of everything we've asked for him, and at the end of the day it's costing him tens of millions of dollars. This organization BETTED on him not getting a max from other teams. Because of HOW we played him.

Nah, I don't think so. Doesn't seem like him. Anything is possible, and if he gets courted by Pop or whoever who make him feel really valued and like he would be a big part, etc....then it's more possible...other teams are really going to sweet talk him if we don't come to terms with him quickly.

To most, the comfort of your coach, teammates, city, family, etc, FAR outweighs other stuff, and unless he has a big problem with any of those things, I don't really see it unless we simply let him visit with other teams.

He would then have to ask us not to match. At that point we would still match rather than lose him for nothing unless we could work out a S&T which is improbable. I don't think anyone would have enough or the type of stuff to make something like that worthwhile.

I think some may see a few games from Frank and feel "We don't need Ayton" but I think the playoffs showed just how important he is.

It mainly depends on what is important to us. Saving money on certain contracts or a chance for a title.

Believe this is all even more relevant with Ayton, he loves Monty, loves the team, and this is a city and state he's been living in for I think close to 6 or 7 years at this point. He's WELL established here and simply wants to get paid what he deserves. I think there is absolutely a scenario in which we have a new owner by the offseason and they sit down with DA and say "I don't care what Sarver said, you're our guy and here's your contract."

I THINK IIRC that no matter Ayton what contract Ayton signs in the upcoming offseason it will not count as a max rookie extension, so we could still target a player on one. So we kind of get the best of both worlds here.

That's what I'd hope the new owner (crosses fingers) would do. Sit down with Ayton and tell him $arver doesn't matter anymore, here's your new deal.

We do need playoff Ayton to show up sooner rather than later and Monty needs to use him more offensively as well.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I hate to say it, but I could see D.A. thinking about pulling his "I don't want to be here" card with all the smoke of the Sarver story + how Ben Simmons has handled his multi-year max contract.

I really hope not.

But the kid has improved his game tremendously, done 95% of everything we've asked for him, and at the end of the day it's costing him tens of millions of dollars. This organization BETTED on him not getting a max from other teams. Because of HOW we played him.

Nah, I don't think so. Doesn't seem like him. Anything is possible, and if he gets courted by Pop or whoever who make him feel really valued and like he would be a big part, etc....then it's more possible...other teams are really going to sweet talk him if we don't come to terms with him quickly.

To most, the comfort of your coach, teammates, city, family, etc, FAR outweighs other stuff, and unless he has a big problem with any of those things, I don't really see it unless we simply let him visit with other teams.

He would then have to ask us not to match. At that point we would still match rather than lose him for nothing unless we could work out a S&T which is improbable. I don't think anyone would have enough or the type of stuff to make something like that worthwhile.

I think some may see a few games from Frank and feel "We don't need Ayton" but I think the playoffs showed just how important he is.

It mainly depends on what is important to us. Saving money on certain contracts or a chance for a title.

Great points as usual BW. Two points that I want to look at:

1-

To most, the comfort of your coach, teammates, city, family, etc, FAR outweighs other stuff, and unless he has a big problem with any of those things, I don't really see it unless we simply let him visit with other teams.

I agree that these are huge factors in such decisions. But I would have to wonder as to how deep his loyalty might be towards Monty with him not bring much of a focal point offensively ( Monty's preference) as it correlates to his contractual value and interests in establishing that value as a max player? Again, To Aytons' credit, His easygoing and affable Personality make him much easier to possibly coach/ negotiate with outside of agent influence. As he's not by nature selfish or a malcontent.

However, as a new father, and this deal being his first opportunity at generational security and wealth, Securing a max will absolutely be a point of emphasis for him. And the lack of being a focal point affecting his numbers and ultimately percieved value, might eventually become a point of conflict. Even possibly this season? So that may effect his loyalty and influence his decision somewhat in this scenario.

2-

think some may see a few games from Frank and feel "We don't need Ayton" but I think the playoffs showed just how important he is.

This as ssd Lily as it may seem to be is a concern for me (with Saver specifically), As ignorant and arrogant as he is, He may dilude himself into actually believing/ feeling this would substantiate his perspective on not offering Ayton the max, and even additionally give him added leverage towards not paying Ayton a max next summer. Resulting in him severely lowballing Ayton, And Ayton seeking to leave the team/ force a sign 'n' trade. And again his misguided argument being that why should he pay Ayton anywhere near a max when Kaminsky has been so productive even as a minimum player! ( substantiating that big men legitimately have minimal value in today's NBA). Completely disregarding Aytons' impact in the playoffs by the way.

I would say that this is an absurd probability IF IT WASN'T SAVER MAKING THE FINAL DECISION.

[Slim Charless]

I hate to say it, but I could see D.A. thinking about pulling his "I don't want to be here" card with all the smoke of the Sarver story + how Ben Simmons has handled his multi-year max contract.

I really hope not.

But the kid has improved his game tremendously, done 95% of everything we've asked for him, and at the end of the day it's costing him tens of millions of dollars. This organization BETTED on him not getting a max from other teams. Because of HOW we played him.

Nah, I don't think so. Doesn't seem like him. Anything is possible, and if he gets courted by Pop or whoever who make him feel really valued and like he would be a big part, etc....then it's more possible...other teams are really going to sweet talk him if we don't come to terms with him quickly.

To most, the comfort of your coach, teammates, city, family, etc, FAR outweighs other stuff, and unless he has a big problem with any of those things, I don't really see it unless we simply let him visit with other teams.

He would then have to ask us not to match. At that point we would still match rather than lose him for nothing unless we could work out a S&T which is improbable. I don't think anyone would have enough or the type of stuff to make something like that worthwhile.

I think some may see a few games from Frank and feel "We don't need Ayton" but I think the playoffs showed just how important he is.

It mainly depends on what is important to us. Saving money on certain contracts or a chance for a title.

Great points as usual BW. Two points that I want to look at:

1-

To most, the comfort of your coach, teammates, city, family, etc, FAR outweighs other stuff, and unless he has a big problem with any of those things, I don't really see it unless we simply let him visit with other teams.

I agree that these are huge factors in such decisions. But I would have to wonder as to how deep his loyalty might be towards Monty with him not bring much of a focal point offensively ( Monty's preference) as it correlates to his contractual value and interests in establishing that value as a max player? Again, To Aytons' credit, His easygoing and affable Personality make him much easier to possibly coach/ negotiate with outside of agent influence. As he's not by nature selfish or a malcontent.

However, as a new father, and this deal being his first opportunity at generational security and wealth, Securing a max will absolutely be a point of emphasis for him. And the lack of being a focal point affecting his numbers and ultimately percieved value, might eventually become a point of conflict. Even possibly this season? So that may effect his loyalty and influence his decision somewhat in this scenario.

2-

think some may see a few games from Frank and feel "We don't need Ayton" but I think the playoffs showed just how important he is.

This as ssd Lily as it may seem to be is a concern for me (with Saver specifically), As ignorant and arrogant as he is, He may dilude himself into actually believing/ feeling this would substantiate his perspective on not offering Ayton the max, and even additionally give him added leverage towards not paying Ayton a max next summer. Resulting in him severely lowballing Ayton, And Ayton seeking to leave the team/ force a sign 'n' trade. And again his misguided argument being that why should he pay Ayton anywhere near a max when Kaminsky has been so productive even as a minimum player! ( substantiating that big men legitimately have minimal value in today's NBA). Completely disregarding Aytons' impact in the playoffs by the way.

I would say that this is an absurd probability IF IT WASN'T SAVER MAKING THE FINAL DECISION.

If they think that DA won't sign/will force any issues then they can move him for the much discussed KAT if it comes to it. That situation is going about how most smart people figured it would. No doubt, he hates playing with selfish chuckers like A1 and his buddy Dlo.

I'd still rather just have DA, since we don't really know his ceiling on offense since Monty doesn't believe in running plays for him. As good as KAT is on offense, our defense would be a sieve unless other guys step up.

[bwoolf2]

Any reason we shouldn't take a flier on Bagley if he's bought out? I know he's got issues but maybe under Monty and with Paul and our vets, maybe we could tap into his potential. He'd obviously be a 3rd stringer for now but perhaps he can work his way into something the following year.

Because he sucks and we already are having trouble finding minutes for guys and he doesn't seem like a culture fit among many other reasons

[bwgood77]

Any reason we shouldn't take a flier on Bagley if he's bought out? I know he's got issues but maybe under Monty and with Paul and our vets, maybe we could tap into his potential. He'd obviously be a 3rd stringer for now but perhaps he can work his way into something the following year.

Because he sucks and we already are having trouble finding minutes for guys and he doesn't seem like a culture fit among many other reasons

Yeah, I don't know why Bagley comes up. He's a bust who wants a max and always seems unhappy and that extends to his family getting involved. I read somewhere today he had blocked all Suns media after we didnt' take him #1 too.

[lilfishi22]

Any reason we shouldn't take a flier on Bagley if he's bought out? I know he's got issues but maybe under Monty and with Paul and our vets, maybe we could tap into his potential. He'd obviously be a 3rd stringer for now but perhaps he can work his way into something the following year.

He's too risky at this point. He seems to have a grudge against the Suns and he just doesn't have the right attitude or character for Jones.

[Frank Lee]

I think the plan all along is to acquire KAT.... there is something about DA that doesn’t jive with James and Monty. Furthermore.... if Book has their ear, well, you know what he’s saying.

[Slim Charless]

Any reason we shouldn't take a flier on Bagley if he's bought out? I know he's got issues but maybe under Monty and with Paul and our vets, maybe we could tap into his potential. He'd obviously be a 3rd stringer for now but perhaps he can work his way into something the following year.

Because he sucks and we already are having trouble finding minutes for guys and he doesn't seem like a culture fit among many other reasons

Yeah, I don't know why Bagley comes up. He's a bust who wants a max and always seems unhappy and that extends to his family getting involved. I read somewhere today he had blocked all Suns media after we didnt' take him #1 too.

I'd be tempted if we didn't already have 2 guys from that class-1 of which needs a big contract. Bags is also a shady locker room guy with his dad and I read somewhere that he still has us blocked since we didn't take him #1 lol.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Anyone watch/listen to the Suns JAM pod session last night?
Them talking about rumors of DA for Simmons.
Note: Nothing legit but apparently it was making the rounds and I never heard anything about this. Have a listen here:

https://youtu.be/HV35dKgCspc?t=1214

Haven't listened yet? But it definitely would be intriguing, For me personally, As I'd be curious as to who the 3rd team that receives Ayton would be??

And I'm not saying we should pursue it. Just that it was brought up and I hadn't heard it yet.
I linked where the conversation starts so you won't have to search for it.

Anyway, IF we were to do it, I am not giving them anything else. You want DA for Ben, that's it. If you want to flip DA elsewhere and take those assets for Ben, that's fine too.

But I'm really not looking at any of this (or any DA trade ideas) until I see how this season plays out.

Agree fully man! And you rock by the way! Thanks for the link.

Also agree that Simmons at best would command Ayton and nothing else ( swap). Possibly even less IF we're taking into account his non existent offense and more importantly stated mental instability issues that he apparently has! IF those things are considered, I'd honestly have to put his value ( assessment) at around maybe Johnson/ Shamet/ Crowder and 2 firsts. Or Paul/ Johnson/ 2 firsts (lottery protected) preferably! But something along those lines. And given the above mentioned factors, An Ayton swap would be generous.

Now theoretically, the teams that really want Simmons are: Minnesota/ Portland/ Boston/ *Atlanta. If we end up having to move Ayton in a sign 'n' trade deal, Could there be a beneficial 3 team trade somewhere with one of those teams, Wherein we get back maximum value with Ayton going out and Simmons going to another team under the premise of a sign 'n' trade scenario? I'm just not sure what that trade would look like, As most of those teams ( sans Boston) are already set at center. And would prefer Simmons in the deal?

[Jdiddy701]

Any reason we shouldn't take a flier on Bagley if he's bought out? I know he's got issues but maybe under Monty and with Paul and our vets, maybe we could tap into his potential. He'd obviously be a 3rd stringer for now but perhaps he can work his way into something the following year.

Because he sucks and we already are having trouble finding minutes for guys and he doesn't seem like a culture fit among many other reasons

Yeah, I don't know why Bagley comes up. He's a bust who wants a max and always seems unhappy and that extends to his family getting involved. I read somewhere today he had blocked all Suns media after we didnt' take him #1 too.

Bagley is from AZ. Think about all the people he follows on twitter from AZ. If I had to guess, he blocked the Suns to stop seeing Suns news on his feed. I would do the same lol


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[Jdiddy701]

I think the plan all along is to acquire KAT.... there is something about DA that doesn’t jive with James and Monty. Furthermore.... if Book has their ear, well, you know what he’s saying.

KAT, Mikal and Booker would make me feel so much better of the Suns direction after CP3 retires. I think MN would get a better deal elsewhere though.


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[NapoleonII]

It'd be a mistake.

KAT is 90 offense and 50 defense.

I'd take D.A.'s 75 offense and 90 defense without blinking.

No other franchise has this problem with their corner stones and I blame all the Luka fanboys, honestly.

[sunskerr]

Kat isn't a 50 on defense. This isn't 2k and stop making up stuff.

[bwgood77]

Because he sucks and we already are having trouble finding minutes for guys and he doesn't seem like a culture fit among many other reasons

Yeah, I don't know why Bagley comes up. He's a bust who wants a max and always seems unhappy and that extends to his family getting involved. I read somewhere today he had blocked all Suns media after we didnt' take him #1 too.

Bagley is from AZ. Think about all the people he follows on twitter from AZ. If I had to guess, he blocked the Suns to stop seeing Suns news on his feed. I would do the same lol

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Makes sense. I usually don't put much stock in that stuff anyway. But the primary reason is he's pretty much a bust and wants a max and seems to be full of drama along with his family.

[bwgood77]

Kat isn't a 50 on defense. This isn't 2k and stop making up stuff.

Is he closer to a 40 or a 60? Thought you'd have a bigger problem with Ayton being a 75 on offense.

[bwgood77]

I think the plan all along is to acquire KAT.... there is something about DA that doesn’t jive with James and Monty. Furthermore.... if Book has their ear, well, you know what he’s saying.

KAT seems less like what Monty and Jones would like though. Well, scratch that, I guess Jones loves 3 pt shooters. But the way Butler talked about KAT and Wiggins was that they just didn't take it seriously and didn't put in the effort. You see so many random posters on trade board and all over that watch him a lot just saying he is not a "winner" type and doesn't have that competitive type personality.

Now some seem to think that about Ayton, but he basically stepped up big on the biggest stage against the biggest competitors when it mattered and was one of, if not the major key in us advancing in the playoffs.

KAT got there once, but it was WITH Butler. KAT puts up numbers, sure, but he has never taken the team anywhere close to the playoffs except when Butler helped them get to the 8 seed.

I'm sure Booker would like to play with him though. For some reason I don't know that I see that duo taking us very far.

[sunskerr]

Kat isn't a 50 on defense. This isn't 2k and stop making up stuff.

Is he closer to a 40 or a 60? Thought you'd have a bigger problem with Ayton being a 75 on offense.

I used to play 2k so I'm sensitive to this lol. 75 is pretty average and 50 is trash. Last time I played though was 2k14 so let me know if I'm just being a 2k boomer, but my main problem is that KAT is not trash at defense. He's been hovering around league average going back 3 years now according to Def. RAPTOR. Unfortunately PIPM has dropped off the face of the Earth.

18-19: +0.0
19-20: +0.9 (this is somewhat significantly above 0.0. Not great but still solid)
20-21: -0.2

I think KAT and Booker would easily take us further than Booker + Ayton in a post Chris Paul world. We'd still need a point guard though.

[bwgood77]

Kat isn't a 50 on defense. This isn't 2k and stop making up stuff.

Is he closer to a 40 or a 60? Thought you'd have a bigger problem with Ayton being a 75 on offense.

I used to play 2k so I'm sensitive to this lol. 75 is pretty average and 50 is trash. Last time I played though was 2k14 so let me know if I'm just being a 2k boomer, but my main problem is that KAT is not trash at defense. He's been hovering around league average going back 3 years now according to Def. RAPTOR. Unfortunately PIPM has dropped off the face of the Earth.

18-19: +0.0
19-20: +0.9 (this is somewhat significantly above 0.0. Not great but still solid)
20-21: -0.2

I think KAT and Booker would easily take us further than Booker + Ayton in a post Chris Paul world. We'd still need a point guard though.

I have not played 2k, or at least not more than a couple times. Definitely wouldn't know ratings.

Anyway, current Booker/KAT would do better than current Booker/Ayton but neither would get us very far right now.

But a lot of this depends on several factors, being:

Future Ayton vs current KAT - the biggest factor at least as it relates to direct comparison
Make up of the rest of the team, particularly future PG

Booker has not looked good this season. I'm not worried but certainly hope he is and continues to work hard, especially with his 3pt shooting, ball handling under pressure and defense.

Part of me wants him to become the future PG for a couple reasons......one, I would like to see his primary focus be on getting others involved, learning where they like it, how to get the most out of them, etc, but also knows he can take over if need be...kind of like Paul does.

Two, it helps tremendously in the sense we don't have to find a PGoTF.

I like his 3 pt shooting better off of catch and shoots though, or coming off screens, though, and if he is full time ball handler it would probably mean even more pull ups.

I'd take KAT over Ayton right now but we would need to trade a lot more for him and Ayton still has enormous upside so it seems a bit premature to just flat out say "We would be better post Paul with Booker/KAT than Booker/Ayton" because Ayton has developed from year 1 to year 3 about as much as I remember a player developing over that time and he still just turned 23.

[bwgood77]

Wow I was thinking Atlanta was at least one good team we beat..didn't realize they were playing so poorly..

https://www.espn.com/nba/standings (tied for 12/13 in east, only ahead of Orlando and Detroit)

[lilfishi22]

They certainly haven't looked like themselves but they've had a pretty damn tough schedule to start the season. They were 4-3 prior to losing 5 straight but all of these 5 losses were against teams expected to be top tier playoff teams this season and only one game was at home.

There's probably a bit of a hangover from the deep run last season (similar to us) and the new defensive rules is impacting Trae more than probably 99% of NBA players because of his style but I just think they've had a really rough early schedule. We may have been in a similar situation if we didn't have a cakewalk of a schedule so far.

That makes our record so far a bit of a facade