The Importance of Center Play

[OakleyDokely]

Among C's, Precious ranks:

6th Defensive Rebounding %
8th Total Rebounding %

Damn I see why Nurse believes in him and plays him, aside from development reasons.

Want another reason??




Thats insane PnR numbers.

AMong guys who have faced >= 4 FGAs at the rim (Rim Protection).


The guy has been arguably the best big defender in the L.

I can only imagine the numbers the Raps have access to.

There's no way Precious would be playing as much as he has if he wasn't impacting the defense and the rebounding in a big way. The Raps will put up with the bad finishing.

[Tor_Raps]

You know whats funny about these threads, is how the narrative changes over time.

It used to be we cant have 6'9 guys as bigs (thus the 7 footer thread/arguments), now its okay to have them, its just we have play one of Precious/Birch.

You're mistaking listed height with how the player actually plays. There are guys like Draymond Green who can be undersized but can make up for it with their strength/skill/smarts. Until one of Siakam/OG/Barnes can show they are better manning the paint than causing havoc on the perimeter, this team will need a center like Birch for both ends of the court.

How many teams in the NBA are succeeding without a legit paint presence on either side of the court? This has been a basic requirement for almost every successful team since the beginning of time and yet you want to roll with Siakam at C because his listed height is the same as others. This conversation is done man lol.

[Tor_Raps]

Damn I see why Nurse believes in him and plays him, aside from development reasons.

Want another reason??




Thats insane PnR numbers.

AMong guys who have faced >= 4 FGAs at the rim (Rim Protection).


The guy has been arguably the best big defender in the L.

I can only imagine the numbers the Raps have access to.

There's no way Precious would be playing as much as he has if he wasn't impacting the defense and the rebounding in a big way. The Raps will put up with the bad finishing.

Precious was AMAZING defensively yesterday. He was also pathetic offensively. You see the flashes but dude is raw as hell.

I actually trust our staff to work with him to get him where he'll be an impact C in the future. I just wish this started at the G League level but unfortunately we don't have any better options at the big club so we'll have to live with his mistakes.

[WaltFrazier]

You know whats funny about these threads, is how the narrative changes over time.

It used to be we cant have 6'9 guys as bigs (thus the 7 footer thread/arguments), now its okay to have them, its just we have play one of Precious/Birch.

7 footer was not a narrative just one man's thread title. The need is for another center who has center skills, whether 6'9 or taller.

All these Rockets posts are beside the point but let's use them to make a point. Hypothetical, you can trade Dragic and Boucher or whoever for Capela or PJ Tucker. Who would you take?

Capela, because he's a center.

[vini_vidi_vici]

You know whats funny about these threads, is how the narrative changes over time.

It used to be we cant have 6'9 guys as bigs (thus the 7 footer thread/arguments), now its okay to have them, its just we have play one of Precious/Birch.

7 footer was not a narrative just one man's thread title. The need is for another center who has center skills, whether 6'9 or taller.

All these Rockets posts are beside the point but let's use them to make a point. Hypothetical, you can trade Dragic and Boucher or whoever for Capela or PJ Tucker. Who would you take?

Capela, because he's a center.

It wasnt just the narrative in one title. I have had these arguments since before the start of the season.

No. Hes 27. Locked up until '25, 20 milly at 29 yrs old, 22 milly at 30.

Hes trash at defense.


But hey, hes tall lol.

[Madhouse]

Best thing would be a real C, Birch his backup and Precious G League this year. Then Precious backup next year. But considering we don't have one, that G League year is not happening now and we will have to develop Precious in the big leagues even though it looks ugly this year. It will likely pay off years down the road. He is 22 but in terms of basketball experience he is 17 or 18. So really the play here is to have a good player at age 25/26.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Best thing would be a real C, Birch his backup and Precious G League this year. Then Precious backup next year. But considering we don't have one, that G League year is not happening now and we will have to develop Precious in the big leagues even though it looks ugly this year. It will likely pay off years down the road. He is 22 but in terms of basketball experience he is 17 or 18. So really the play here is to have a good player at age 25/26.

This is a......
D
E
V
E
L
O
P
M
E
N
T
year.

When are people going to accept that??

This is the yr to try this new offense, to try this hybrid defense, to play the **** out of the youth to see what we have. All I read is people wanting to win a round and cap out.

[Madhouse]

Best thing would be a real C, Birch his backup and Precious G League this year. Then Precious backup next year. But considering we don't have one, that G League year is not happening now and we will have to develop Precious in the big leagues even though it looks ugly this year. It will likely pay off years down the road. He is 22 but in terms of basketball experience he is 17 or 18. So really the play here is to have a good player at age 25/26.

This is a......
D
E
V
E
L
O
P
M
E
N
T
year.

When are people going to accept that??

This is the yr to try this new offense, to try this hybrid defense, to play the **** out of the youth to see what we have. All I read is people wanting to win a round and cap out.

I have fully accepted it, I'm team TWO.

[ConSarnit]

I notice none of the “we need a real C” crowd brings up that we are first in O rebounding AND first in limiting transition opportunities. We can crash the glass because we have a bunch of versatile defenders who can match up in transition and grind the other team into a half court game (for them).

I don’t know how you can watch this team and not see how the majority of the issues are on the offensive end. Unless our “real” center is Jokic we’re not going to fix that problem by throwing a 7ft body out there.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Best thing would be a real C, Birch his backup and Precious G League this year. Then Precious backup next year. But considering we don't have one, that G League year is not happening now and we will have to develop Precious in the big leagues even though it looks ugly this year. It will likely pay off years down the road. He is 22 but in terms of basketball experience he is 17 or 18. So really the play here is to have a good player at age 25/26.

This is a......
D
E
V
E
L
O
P
M
E
N
T
year.

When are people going to accept that??

This is the yr to try this new offense, to try this hybrid defense, to play the **** out of the youth to see what we have. All I read is people wanting to win a round and cap out.

I have fully accepted it, I'm team TWO.

So youre a tanker, another dumb premise but ill concede this line of thinking, and your plan is to get a big (using presumably, assets) and put a position block on a 22 yr old who is arguably the best defensive big in the game right now (by the data, yes theres likely to regression, but thats besides the point)?? To do what?? Win more games?? I must be going insane dealing with these logic jumps. I dont even understand from your (tWo) perspective.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I notice none of the “we need a real C” crowd brings up that we are first in O rebounding AND first in limiting transition opportunities. We can crash the glass because we have a bunch of versatile defenders who can match up in transition and grind the other team into a half court game (for them).

I don’t know how you can watch this team and not see how the majority of the issues are on the offensive end. Unless our “real” center is Jokic we’re not going to fix that problem by throwing a 7ft body out there.

Bro, we havent even gotten into how they dont understand our system (which is another argument altogether), its just hey we need tall guys, because there are... *checks notes*.., other tall guys in the L.

[WaltFrazier]

You know whats funny about these threads, is how the narrative changes over time.

It used to be we cant have 6'9 guys as bigs (thus the 7 footer thread/arguments), now its okay to have them, its just we have play one of Precious/Birch.

7 footer was not a narrative just one man's thread title. The need is for another center who has center skills, whether 6'9 or taller.

All these Rockets posts are beside the point but let's use them to make a point. Hypothetical, you can trade Dragic and Boucher or whoever for Capela or PJ Tucker. Who would you take?

Capela, because he's a center.

It wasnt just the narrative in one title. I have had these arguments since before the start of the season.

No. Hes 27. Locked up until '25, 20 milly at 29 yrs old, 22 milly at 30.

Hes trash at defense.


But hey, hes tall lol.

It was a total hypothetical, nothing to do with contract or cap. Rockets got rid of center Capela and went with 6'6 Tucker. Capela was starting center on Hawks in Eastern final.

I just used those 2 as an example because of all the debate about Morey's Rockets. Capela is not a guy we could get, I know. But he'd be an upgrade to this Raptors team over Achiuwa.

Currently 12th in rebounds and 13th in blocks

[vini_vidi_vici]

7 footer was not a narrative just one man's thread title. The need is for another center who has center skills, whether 6'9 or taller.

All these Rockets posts are beside the point but let's use them to make a point. Hypothetical, you can trade Dragic and Boucher or whoever for Capela or PJ Tucker. Who would you take?

Capela, because he's a center.

It wasnt just the narrative in one title. I have had these arguments since before the start of the season.

No. Hes 27. Locked up until '25, 20 milly at 29 yrs old, 22 milly at 30.

Hes trash at defense.


But hey, hes tall lol.

It was a total hypothetical, nothing to do with contract or cap. Rockets got rid of center Capela and went with 6'6 Tucker. Capela was starting center on Hawks in Eastern final.

I just used those 2 as an example because of all the debate about Morey's Rockets. Capela is not a guy we could get, I know. But he'd be an upgrade to this Raptors team over Achiuwa.

This is so dumb, really.

Im now refuting hypotheticals that even the one submitting the hypothetical, agrees is dumb.

[Madhouse]

This is a......
D
E
V
E
L
O
P
M
E
N
T
year.

When are people going to accept that??

This is the yr to try this new offense, to try this hybrid defense, to play the **** out of the youth to see what we have. All I read is people wanting to win a round and cap out.

I have fully accepted it, I'm team TWO.

So youre a tanker, another dumb premise but ill concede this line of thinking, and your plan is to get a big (using presumably, assets) and put a position block on a 22 yr old who is arguably the best defensive big in the game right now (by the data, yes theres likely to regression, but thats besides the point)?? To do what?? Win more games?? I must be going insane dealing with these logic jumps. I dont even understand from your (tWo) perspective.

Not a tanker, I would just be in favor of another lottery talent to add to the core.

[WaltFrazier]

It wasnt just the narrative in one title. I have had these arguments since before the start of the season.

No. Hes 27. Locked up until '25, 20 milly at 29 yrs old, 22 milly at 30.

Hes trash at defense.


But hey, hes tall lol.

It was a total hypothetical, nothing to do with contract or cap. Rockets got rid of center Capela and went with 6'6 Tucker. Capela was starting center on Hawks in Eastern final.

I just used those 2 as an example because of all the debate about Morey's Rockets. Capela is not a guy we could get, I know. But he'd be an upgrade to this Raptors team over Achiuwa.

This is so dumb, really.

Im now refuting hypotheticals that even the one submitting the hypothetical, agrees is dumb.

Yup, and again it was only an illustration because of all the Rockets talk here.

In much simpler terms, a modest pickup of an under the radar center to move ahead of Achiuwa in the depth would improve the team. Not to mention giving us 3 centers would help, in times when one is hurt like Birch is currently.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I have fully accepted it, I'm team TWO.

So youre a tanker, another dumb premise but ill concede this line of thinking, and your plan is to get a big (using presumably, assets) and put a position block on a 22 yr old who is arguably the best defensive big in the game right now (by the data, yes theres likely to regression, but thats besides the point)?? To do what?? Win more games?? I must be going insane dealing with these logic jumps. I dont even understand from your (tWo) perspective.

Not a tanker, I would just be in favor of another lottery talent to add to the core.

What does the T in tWo stand for??

I think im done here, the ****.

[asuran]

Obviously having a big body/center type player would be useful but I think Masai/Webster have this vision and is intent on seeing it thru at least for a good part of the season if not the whole season.

They will at least give this style of play a good chance to see if it works.

[vini_vidi_vici]

It was a total hypothetical, nothing to do with contract or cap. Rockets got rid of center Capela and went with 6'6 Tucker. Capela was starting center on Hawks in Eastern final.

I just used those 2 as an example because of all the debate about Morey's Rockets. Capela is not a guy we could get, I know. But he'd be an upgrade to this Raptors team over Achiuwa.

This is so dumb, really.

Im now refuting hypotheticals that even the one submitting the hypothetical, agrees is dumb.

Yup, and again it was only an illustration because of all the Rockets talk here.

In much simpler terms, a modest pickup of an under the radar center to move ahead of Achiuwa in the depth would improve the team. Not to mention giving us 3 centers would help, in times when one is hurt like Birch is currently.

Why are you trying to improve the team at the expense of development in a developmental yr??

[VanWest82]

It seems to me that there are two lines of thought going on here that aren't necessarily the same: 1. Raptors need to bring in better quality, bigger centers; 2. Raptors just need to make sure they play the bigs they already have. Both of these are attempts to push back on the idea that we should be going small as much as possible.

I'm in the 2nd camp. Precious has struggled at times but he's also shown a ton of defensive potential as VVV illustrated, and Birch is solid on both ends. I think this team really benefits from the added size, particularly in the regular season, as it helps our rebounding, defense, and even offense at times when we need a bigger body to help create space and act as an outlet. Of course, there are also times when it makes sense to go small, just not at the start of games when opposing bigs are fresher/stronger and typically do more damage.

[vini_vidi_vici]

It seems to me that there are two lines of thought going on here that aren't necessarily the same: 1. Raptors need to bring in better quality, bigger centers; 2. Raptors just need to make sure they play the bigs they already have. Both of these are attempts to push back on the idea that we should be going small as much as possible.

I'm in the 2nd camp. Precious has struggled at times but he's also showed a ton of defensive potential as VVV illustrated, and Birch is solid on both ends. I think this team really benefits from the added size, particularly in the regular season, as it helps our rebounding, defense, and even offense at times when we need a bigger body to help create space and act as an outlet. Of course, there are also times when it makes sense to go small, just not at the start of games when opposing bigs are fresher/stronger and typically do more damage.

I take issue with that VW.

I literally have had arguments over the need for a guy to be 6'11/7'. Now its become well Precious/Birch is good enough, because the other guys are too small.



None of this is factual. I present the idea that height is of little concern, what matters is are they good players who fit our system. You dont bring a drop back PnR big onto a team built to switch everything, a team that has everyone OREB and when they do, capable to pick up full court. Achiuwa and Birch can do that, and have, and its a big reason why were so elite at transition defense despite counter-intuitively going for alot of OREBs.

Theres this misnomer that just because we play small Spicy is going to be murdered by Cs or whatever. Its a shared duty in our system, no one player (incl Birch/Achiuwa) only takes on Cs or any position in this system. We dont care who defends them (FVV defended Drummond on ~6 possessions, he went 0/1).

The issue is people think using our assets to get marginally better while, pushing our 22 yr old down the order, and forcing us to change our philosophies offensively and defensively, it just sounds CRAZY esp in a developmental yr.