The Importance of Center Play

[Childs]

Watch on YouTube

[Indeed]

I notice none of the “we need a real C” crowd brings up that we are first in O rebounding AND first in limiting transition opportunities. We can crash the glass because we have a bunch of versatile defenders who can match up in transition and grind the other team into a half court game (for them).

I don’t know how you can watch this team and not see how the majority of the issues are on the offensive end. Unless our “real” center is Jokic we’re not going to fix that problem by throwing a 7ft body out there.

Birch is a real C (in terms of skill set, not size), and he was the difference on the OReb with 15.3% (Ranked 4th in the league in offensive rebound, and basically 22 of top 25 is listed as C with Barnes PF being 19th as an exception):
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_advanced.html

[Indeed]

It seems to me that there are two lines of thought going on here that aren't necessarily the same: 1. Raptors need to bring in better quality, bigger centers; 2. Raptors just need to make sure they play the bigs they already have. Both of these are attempts to push back on the idea that we should be going small as much as possible.

I'm in the 2nd camp. Precious has struggled at times but he's also showed a ton of defensive potential as VVV illustrated, and Birch is solid on both ends. I think this team really benefits from the added size, particularly in the regular season, as it helps our rebounding, defense, and even offense at times when we need a bigger body to help create space and act as an outlet. Of course, there are also times when it makes sense to go small, just not at the start of games when opposing bigs are fresher/stronger and typically do more damage.

I take issue with that VW.

I literally have had arguments over the need for a guy to be 6'11/7'. Now its become well Precious/Birch is good enough, because the other guys are too small.



None of this is factual. I present the idea that height is of little concern, what matters is are they good players who fit our system. You dont bring a drop back PnR big onto a team built to switch everything, a team that has everyone OREB and when they do, capable to pick up full court. Achiuwa and Birch can do that, and have, and its a big reason why were so elite at transition defense despite counter-intuitively going for alot of OREBs.

Theres this misnomer that just because we play small Spicy is going to be murdered by Cs or whatever. Its a shared duty in our system, no one player (incl Birch/Achiuwa) only takes on Cs or any position in this system. We dont care who defends them (FVV defended Drummond on ~6 possessions, he went 0/1).

The issue is people think using our assets to get marginally better while, pushing our 22 yr old down the order, and forcing us to change our philosophies offensively and defensively, it just sounds CRAZY esp in a developmental yr.

Maybe we shall see the next game, but so far the DRtg with Siakam/OG/Barnes play C aren't kind to them.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*12

And the total rebound is 40%, which is in the bottom 10. Unless we are scoring better (eg. better TS%), otherwise, being a bottom in rebounding, doesn't help on neither end.

[vini_vidi_vici]

It seems to me that there are two lines of thought going on here that aren't necessarily the same: 1. Raptors need to bring in better quality, bigger centers; 2. Raptors just need to make sure they play the bigs they already have. Both of these are attempts to push back on the idea that we should be going small as much as possible.

I'm in the 2nd camp. Precious has struggled at times but he's also showed a ton of defensive potential as VVV illustrated, and Birch is solid on both ends. I think this team really benefits from the added size, particularly in the regular season, as it helps our rebounding, defense, and even offense at times when we need a bigger body to help create space and act as an outlet. Of course, there are also times when it makes sense to go small, just not at the start of games when opposing bigs are fresher/stronger and typically do more damage.

I take issue with that VW.

I literally have had arguments over the need for a guy to be 6'11/7'. Now its become well Precious/Birch is good enough, because the other guys are too small.



None of this is factual. I present the idea that height is of little concern, what matters is are they good players who fit our system. You dont bring a drop back PnR big onto a team built to switch everything, a team that has everyone OREB and when they do, capable to pick up full court. Achiuwa and Birch can do that, and have, and its a big reason why were so elite at transition defense despite counter-intuitively going for alot of OREBs.

Theres this misnomer that just because we play small Spicy is going to be murdered by Cs or whatever. Its a shared duty in our system, no one player (incl Birch/Achiuwa) only takes on Cs or any position in this system. We dont care who defends them (FVV defended Drummond on ~6 possessions, he went 0/1).

The issue is people think using our assets to get marginally better while, pushing our 22 yr old down the order, and forcing us to change our philosophies offensively and defensively, it just sounds CRAZY esp in a developmental yr.

Maybe we shall see the next game, but so far the DRtg with Siakam/OG/Barnes aren't kind to them.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*12

And the total rebound is 40%, which is in the bottom 10. Unless we are scoring better (eg. better TS%), otherwise, being a bottom in rebounding, doesn't help on neither end.

They have played 27 mins together, im not sure what that means, esp considering one of those guys is a rookie, and one just missed all training camp/preseason/11 of 13 games this yr.

[VanWest82]

I

Spoiler:

t seems to me that there are two lines of thought going on here that aren't necessarily the same: 1. Raptors need to bring in better quality, bigger centers; 2. Raptors just need to make sure they play the bigs they already have. Both of these are attempts to push back on the idea that we should be going small as much as possible.

I'm in the 2nd camp. Precious has struggled at times but he's also showed a ton of defensive potential as VVV illustrated, and Birch is solid on both ends. I think this team really benefits from the added size, particularly in the regular season, as it helps our rebounding, defense, and even offense at times when we need a bigger body to help create space and act as an outlet. Of course, there are also times when it makes sense to go small, just not at the start of games when opposing bigs are fresher/stronger and typically do more damage.

I take issue with that VW.

I literally have had arguments over the need for a guy to be 6'11/7'. Now its become well Precious/Birch is good enough, because the other guys are too small.



None of this is factual. I present the idea that height is of little concern, what matters is are they good players who fit our system. You dont bring a drop back PnR big onto a team built to switch everything, a team that has everyone OREB and when they do, capable to pick up full court. Achiuwa and Birch can do that, and have, and its a big reason why were so elite at transition defense despite counter-intuitively going for alot of OREBs.

Theres this misnomer that just because we play small Spicy is going to be murdered by Cs or whatever. Its a shared duty in our system, no one player (incl Birch/Achiuwa) only takes on Cs or any position in this system. We dont care who defends them (FVV defended Drummond on ~6 possessions, he went 0/1).

The issue is people think using our assets to get marginally better while, pushing our 22 yr old down the order, and forcing us to change our philosophies offensively and defensively, it just sounds CRAZY esp in a developmental yr.

I don't think we're on that different of pages here. Precious and Birch are plenty big enough. The issue is the big man-esk skill sets they bring to the table and what that does for our main line ups. I'd argue both guys are stronger than everyone else on the team save OG, and although we do a lot of switching and play interchangeably there is still a fair amount of traditional match ups that happen throughout our games where that extra "size" makes a difference.

Precious is a lob threat who plays well above the rim and is a pretty good rim protector already. Birch is our best screener and makes great decisions on the catch in PnR. These are useful qualities that aren't all that prevelant throughout the rest of the roster and help balance out our line ups.

Fans who are advocating for selling Precious fro 13c on the dollar 13 games into his Raps career are just as out to lunch as the ones suggesting we trade Fred and Pascal so we can tank without giving this team time to breathe and grow together.

[WaltFrazier]

This is so dumb, really.

Im now refuting hypotheticals that even the one submitting the hypothetical, agrees is dumb.

Yup, and again it was only an illustration because of all the Rockets talk here.

In much simpler terms, a modest pickup of an under the radar center to move ahead of Achiuwa in the depth would improve the team. Not to mention giving us 3 centers would help, in times when one is hurt like Birch is currently.

Why are you trying to improve the team at the expense of development in a developmental yr??

1. Picking up another C comparable to the Birch acquisition last would not hurt any development. Say it cost Dragic and filler, even Boucher. Not the core. And Achiuwa can still develop between 3rd C and 905

2. Fred, OG and Pascal deserve better than a purely development season, they are prime young pros with a ring already

[Indeed]

I take issue with that VW.

I literally have had arguments over the need for a guy to be 6'11/7'. Now its become well Precious/Birch is good enough, because the other guys are too small.



None of this is factual. I present the idea that height is of little concern, what matters is are they good players who fit our system. You dont bring a drop back PnR big onto a team built to switch everything, a team that has everyone OREB and when they do, capable to pick up full court. Achiuwa and Birch can do that, and have, and its a big reason why were so elite at transition defense despite counter-intuitively going for alot of OREBs.

Theres this misnomer that just because we play small Spicy is going to be murdered by Cs or whatever. Its a shared duty in our system, no one player (incl Birch/Achiuwa) only takes on Cs or any position in this system. We dont care who defends them (FVV defended Drummond on ~6 possessions, he went 0/1).

The issue is people think using our assets to get marginally better while, pushing our 22 yr old down the order, and forcing us to change our philosophies offensively and defensively, it just sounds CRAZY esp in a developmental yr.

Maybe we shall see the next game, but so far the DRtg with Siakam/OG/Barnes aren't kind to them.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*12

And the total rebound is 40%, which is in the bottom 10. Unless we are scoring better (eg. better TS%), otherwise, being a bottom in rebounding, doesn't help on neither end.

They have played 27 mins together, im not sure what that means, esp considering one of those guys is a rookie, and one just missed all training camp/preseason/11 of 13 games this yr.

27 mins for 5 men is alot, there are only 8 lineups with 12+ mins.
And your point in "one of those guys is a rookie", then we should have a C until the rookie is ready to play that role. If it takes him 10 years to shoot the 3s (*cough* DeRozan *cough*), so we build a lineup that is expecting him to shoot 3? I think we should base on short term, not long term.

If any of them can play C and don't need a C, then we deal with the C. But if we need a C now, and probably the next 2 years, I think we should fix this problem before assuming this will resolve in few years. We do not know if this small lineup is a solution.

[ConSarnit]

Maybe we shall see the next game, but so far the DRtg with Siakam/OG/Barnes aren't kind to them.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612761&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*12

And the total rebound is 40%, which is in the bottom 10. Unless we are scoring better (eg. better TS%), otherwise, being a bottom in rebounding, doesn't help on neither end.

They have played 27 mins together, im not sure what that means, esp considering one of those guys is a rookie, and one just missed all training camp/preseason/11 of 13 games this yr.

27 mins for 5 men is alot, there are only 8 lineups with 12+ mins.
And your point in "one of those guys is a rookie", then we should have a C until the rookie is ready to play that role. If it takes him 10 years to shoot the 3s (*cough* DeRozan *cough*), so we build a lineup that is expecting him to shoot 3? I think we should base on short term, not long term.

If any of them can play C and don't need a C, then we deal with the C. But if we need a C now, and probably the next 2 years, I think we should fix this problem before assuming this will resolve in few years. We do not know if this small lineup is a solution.

What is the rush to fill the C role this season? So we can win 2 more games?

The truth is it is a problem that can be solved at almost any time and likely won’t cost much.

Ibaka
Gasol
Capela
Brook Lopez

There are always good centers on the market that can be had for role players + mediocre 1st. I just don’t see the reason to give up assets for a marginal upgrade in a development season. It’s shortsighted.

[Gold Dragon]

Drummond’s game yesterday showed us how unimportant a “traditional centre” is today.

I don’t expect us to ever give a significant role to a traditional centre as long as Masai/Bobby/nick are running the show. Eventually we will likely have a 7 footer on the roster but they will not be a traditional C, unless they also have all the perimeter skills we value.

[tecumseh18]

Drummond’s game yesterday showed us how unimportant a “traditional centre” is today.

I don’t expect us to ever give a significant role to a traditional centre as long as Masai/Bobby/nick are running the show. Eventually we will likely have a 7 footer on the roster but they will not be a traditional C, unless they also have all the perimeter skills we value.

Not just Drummond. Sabonis, Vuce, anyone I can think of so far. Of course the opposing C's are able to inflict a bit of damage against us, but not at a rate that kills us. I came into this season with a certain assumption about the need for a traditional C, hoping Masai had a plan to trade for Myles Turner, and I consider myself to have been kicked in the ass so far.

It's too early to draw any hard conclusions. Let's see Pascal fully recover. Let's see Scottie get more experience. Let's see what happens when we meet Embiid or Jokic or Ayton or AD. Raps did a great job on Embiid in the mini series last season, but at least we had Baynes in the middle. Of course, Birch is a WAY better player than Baynes, although probably not as strong. OG is surprisingly good on Jokic. AD has rarely been a factor against the Raptors.

Really, it's very exciting. The Raps are trying to do something that's never been done.

[Gold Dragon]

Drummond’s game yesterday showed us how unimportant a “traditional centre” is today.

I don’t expect us to ever give a significant role to a traditional centre as long as Masai/Bobby/nick are running the show. Eventually we will likely have a 7 footer on the roster but they will not be a traditional C, unless they also have all the perimeter skills we value.

Not just Drummond. Sabonis, Vuce, anyone I can think of so far. Of course the opposing C's are able to inflict a bit of damage against us, but not at a rate that kills us. I came into this season with a certain assumption about the need for a traditional C, hoping Masai had a plan to trade for Myles Turner, and I consider myself to have been kicked in the ass so far.

It's too early to draw any hard conclusions. Let's see Pascal fully recover. Let's see Scottie get more experience. Let's see what happens when we meet Embiid or Jokic or Ayton or AD. Raps did a great job on Embiid in the mini series last season, but at least we had Baynes in the middle. Of course, Birch is a WAY better player than Baynes, although probably not as strong. OG is surprisingly good on Jokic. AD has rarely been a factor against the Raptors.

Really, it's very exciting. The Raps are trying to do something that's never been done.

I was stanning for Jarrett Allen who I still think fits even if his perimeter game is not ideal. He also fits our timeline way better than guys like Turner and Holmes.

There will be games we will lose quite a bit inside. So far it has been against smaller or faster players using their speed and aggressiveness and not really about length or size (Harrell, Williams, Allen/Mobley).

[hsb]

Yup, and again it was only an illustration because of all the Rockets talk here.

In much simpler terms, a modest pickup of an under the radar center to move ahead of Achiuwa in the depth would improve the team. Not to mention giving us 3 centers would help, in times when one is hurt like Birch is currently.

Why are you trying to improve the team at the expense of development in a developmental yr??

1. Picking up another C comparable to the Birch acquisition last would not hurt any development. Say it cost Dragic and filler, even Boucher. Not the core. And Achiuwa can still develop between 3rd C and 905

That's true, development for Achiuwa doesn't mean providing him with x amount of minutes. I have read of the many different ways the Raptors develop and it's not only minutes played on the court for the main team.

[hsb]

Drummond’s game yesterday showed us how unimportant a “traditional centre” is today.

I don’t expect us to ever give a significant role to a traditional centre as long as Masai/Bobby/nick are running the show. Eventually we will likely have a 7 footer on the roster but they will not be a traditional C, unless they also have all the perimeter skills we value.

Not just Drummond. Sabonis, Vuce, anyone I can think of so far. Of course the opposing C's are able to inflict a bit of damage against us, but not at a rate that kills us. I came into this season with a certain assumption about the need for a traditional C, hoping Masai had a plan to trade for Myles Turner, and I consider myself to have been kicked in the ass so far.

It's too early to draw any hard conclusions. Let's see Pascal fully recover. Let's see Scottie get more experience. Let's see what happens when we meet Embiid or Jokic or Ayton or AD. Raps did a great job on Embiid in the mini series last season, but at least we had Baynes in the middle. Of course, Birch is a WAY better player than Baynes, although probably not as strong. OG is surprisingly good on Jokic. AD has rarely been a factor against the Raptors.

Really, it's very exciting. The Raps are trying to do something that's never been done.

I like the way things are headed, the one thing to consider is not about how much damage an opposing center might inflict, but the effort it takes to guard the biggest player over an 82 game season.

You want Siakam, for example, to run well not only in the first but also in the fourth quarter. The jumpshot might hit the front iron a little more often, later in the game, if you overplay him against bigger players to start the game. I like Birch, he's shown a lot of talent I didn't know he possessed. I think it was the Knicks game where he facilitated on the roll. He can guard the bigger players when needed obviously.

You are right, it's too early to draw any hard conclusions.

[Gold Dragon]

I like the way things are headed, the one thing to consider is not about how much damage an opposing center might inflict, but the effort it takes to guard the biggest player over an 82 game season.

You want Siakam, for example, to run well not only in the first but also in the fourth quarter. The jumpshot might hit the front iron a little more often, later in the game, if you overplay him against bigger players to start the game. I like Birch, he's shown a lot of talent I didn't know he possessed. I think it was the Knicks game where he facilitated on the roll. He can guard the bigger players when needed obviously.

You are right, it's too early to draw any hard conclusions.

I don’t think the plan is to have anyone guard the biggest opposing player most of the time. It will be a rotation on a game to game, quarter to quarter, play to play thing. And of course if the opposing big is someone like Embiid, we may end up starting our more traditional big in Birch or at least bring him in really early.

If you look at who matches up with who, Fred and Gary are matched up with the biggest player on the other team a lot of the time.

Our system is not meant to assign one player to guarding one position.

[Indeed]

They have played 27 mins together, im not sure what that means, esp considering one of those guys is a rookie, and one just missed all training camp/preseason/11 of 13 games this yr.

27 mins for 5 men is alot, there are only 8 lineups with 12+ mins.
And your point in "one of those guys is a rookie", then we should have a C until the rookie is ready to play that role. If it takes him 10 years to shoot the 3s (*cough* DeRozan *cough*), so we build a lineup that is expecting him to shoot 3? I think we should base on short term, not long term.

If any of them can play C and don't need a C, then we deal with the C. But if we need a C now, and probably the next 2 years, I think we should fix this problem before assuming this will resolve in few years. We do not know if this small lineup is a solution.

What is the rush to fill the C role this season? So we can win 2 more games?

The truth is it is a problem that can be solved at almost any time and likely won’t cost much.

Ibaka
Gasol
Capela
Brook Lopez

There are always good centers on the market that can be had for role players + mediocre 1st. I just don’t see the reason to give up assets for a marginal upgrade in a development season. It’s shortsighted.

You only named aging players, which young C is available?
Meanwhile, we are talking about having a real C next to Siakam-Barnes-OG, and are you suggesting we start small without a real C?
And I don't think it is 2 more wins this season, we would have 2 more wins the past few games.

[tecumseh18]

I like the way things are headed, the one thing to consider is not about how much damage an opposing center might inflict, but the effort it takes to guard the biggest player over an 82 game season.

You want Siakam, for example, to run well not only in the first but also in the fourth quarter. The jumpshot might hit the front iron a little more often, later in the game, if you overplay him against bigger players to start the game. I like Birch, he's shown a lot of talent I didn't know he possessed. I think it was the Knicks game where he facilitated on the roll. He can guard the bigger players when needed obviously.

You are right, it's too early to draw any hard conclusions.

I don’t think the plan is to have anyone guard the biggest opposing player most of the time. It will be a rotation on a game to game, quarter to quarter, play to play thing. And if course if the opposing big is someone like Embiid, we may end up starting our more traditional big in Birch or at least bring him in really early.

If you look at who matches up with who, Fred and Gary are matched up with the biggest player on the other team a lot of the time.

Our system is not meant to assign one player to guarding one position.

Certainly the small ball model franchise - GSW - always had and have 1 to 3 big lugs to take the punishment and the fouls for three quarters before Draymond took over in the fourth. And the Raptors do have Birch and Precious. Not as big, but WAY more switchable.

But against good, healthy teams, our approach hinges on Birch being available. That's the scary thing. We don't want to go into the playoffs with Birch injured. At the deadline or in the buy-out market, Masai has to bring in another comparable, serviceable big.

Fascinated to see how this plays out.

[MikeG]

Boucher Dragic for Bagley and TT

We get our big body plus a project to work on
SAC gets Dragic to help groom their young guards (or as potential trade chip) plus buying low on Boucher. All players on expiring deals. 3rd team would need to be involved.

[Basketball_Jones]

I’m actually good with our C’s. The problem is Khem is always freakin injured I really want to see him play more

[GLF]

I’m actually good with our C’s. The problem is Khem is always freakin injured I really want to see him play more

That's where I'm at with it too. On THIS team Birch means a lot to us. He just plays the game the right way and has a high basketball IQ. He doesn't make many boneheaded mistakes on either end. You see how much we miss him when he doesn't play. I think him and Precious are enough. They just can't get injured lol. Well Birch more so than Precious. I've been just fine with Precious' defence and rebounding. Our system needs C's to be at it's best, I just do not agree that that C HAS to be a traditional big man or a 6'10 and up big man. Khem has been great once he found his rhythm coming back from Covid.

[WaltFrazier]

I like the way things are headed, the one thing to consider is not about how much damage an opposing center might inflict, but the effort it takes to guard the biggest player over an 82 game season.

You want Siakam, for example, to run well not only in the first but also in the fourth quarter. The jumpshot might hit the front iron a little more often, later in the game, if you overplay him against bigger players to start the game. I like Birch, he's shown a lot of talent I didn't know he possessed. I think it was the Knicks game where he facilitated on the roll. He can guard the bigger players when needed obviously.

You are right, it's too early to draw any hard conclusions.

I don’t think the plan is to have anyone guard the biggest opposing player most of the time. It will be a rotation on a game to game, quarter to quarter, play to play thing. And if course if the opposing big is someone like Embiid, we may end up starting our more traditional big in Birch or at least bring him in really early.

If you look at who matches up with who, Fred and Gary are matched up with the biggest player on the other team a lot of the time.

Our system is not meant to assign one player to guarding one position.

Certainly the small ball model franchise - GSW - always had and have 1 to 3 big lugs to take the punishment and the fouls for three quarters before Draymond took over in the fourth. And the Raptors do have Birch and Precious. Not as big, but WAY more switchable.

But against good, healthy teams, our approach hinges on Birch being available. That's the scary thing. We don't want to go into the playoffs with Birch injured. At the deadline or in the buy-out market, Masai has to bring in another comparable, serviceable big.

Fascinated to see how this plays out.

The injury to Birch alone points out the need for one more center