WOJ: NBA investigating possible tampering: Update Bulls forfeit 2nd Round Pick pg. 31

[League Circles]

I'm slightly surprised at how many posters are basically fine with tampering. It deeply sickens me and I want the NBA to make major moves to reduce or eliminate it. Starting with next year lol.

It depends on the tampering.

Tampering with impending FAs because the official negotiation period starts on July 1st, but from a practical perspective they are no longer under contract with their team because the season is over is a farce and should be gotten rid of.

Tampering by execs or players answering innocuous questions on the air or to the media about players on other teams should be removed as a problem because it is also a farce. At a minimum, the comment should have to be viewed as actively inducing or repetitive.

The actual only tampering that is really harmful are players or execs convincing other players to demand out of contracts that are in force and even worse demanding a trade to a specific team (Harden to Brooklyn as an example, Kawhi being wooed during the season by the Clippers as another, LeBron/Davis as another).

None of the fines for tampering have ever been for tampering that actually ever made a difference.

I've always viewed this game as sort of an epic drama. I experience it very much in the way that people might experience a movie like Gladiator, etc.

For that reason, it disgusts me to even see the casual and normal human behavior of a player or exec complimenting (or even acknowledging the existence of lol) an opposing player. I basically like this one little part of life, and this part alone, to be childishly tribal and warlike. That's why I don't even want trades allowed at all, period, let alone tampering and recruiting. So for me, even if it doesn't result in improper player movement, it still can easily leave a bad taste in the mouth of immature fans like me. That's the best I can explain it. I don't like the soap operaization of this league and sports in general, and I think even the functionally trivial types of tampering that you describe can contribute to that. I think that at least marginally hurts entertainment value to me. Fortunately nobody ever really wants to leave the Bulls.

[dougthonus]

Well according to wiretap, still on-going:
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264475/NBAs-Tampering-Investigations-Into-Bulls-Heat-Remain-Ongoing

[dougthonus]

I've always viewed this game as sort of an epic drama. I experience it very much in the way that people might experience a movie like Gladiator, etc.

For that reason, it disgusts me to even see the casual and normal human behavior of a player or exec complimenting (or even acknowledging the existence of lol) an opposing player. I basically like this one little part of life, and this part alone, to be childishly tribal and warlike.

I suspect that gladiators were allowed to talk about other gladiators and tribes were allowed to talk about other tribes

That's why I don't even want trades allowed at all, period, let alone tampering and recruiting. So for me, even if it doesn't result in improper player movement, it still can easily leave a bad taste in the mouth of immature fans like me. That's the best I can explain it. I don't like the soap operaization of this league and sports in general, and I think even the functionally trivial types of tampering that you describe can contribute to that. I think that at least marginally hurts entertainment value to me. Fortunately nobody ever really wants to leave the Bulls.

I can see why you would want the us against them days where many players/teams disliked each other and it wasn't a big friendly everyone is buddy buddy and hugging and exchanging jerseys after the game etc.. The rivalry's felt like they were between players rather than fans (or at least the players participated more). That seems less common these days, and there is something lost there.

I don't think that's really related to tampering in this sense of did an organization contact a guy who's season is over and will be a FA on June 10th instead of July 1st. Those to me seem like different things. Maybe it matters a little more with comments in the press, but again, I think those things are pretty separate issues and certainly that reason isn't along the lines of why tampering rules exist.

The tampering rules are funny in general, because literally in every single post game interview players are commenting on other players and complimenting their performances in some way or another, but the Warriors GM says "We're not interested in trading for a top defensive player from Philly as we don't think he's a good fit" and it's tampering? It's just nonsensical.

[League Circles]

I've always viewed this game as sort of an epic drama. I experience it very much in the way that people might experience a movie like Gladiator, etc.

For that reason, it disgusts me to even see the casual and normal human behavior of a player or exec complimenting (or even acknowledging the existence of lol) an opposing player. I basically like this one little part of life, and this part alone, to be childishly tribal and warlike.

I suspect that gladiators were allowed to talk about other gladiators and tribes were allowed to talk about other tribes

That's why I don't even want trades allowed at all, period, let alone tampering and recruiting. So for me, even if it doesn't result in improper player movement, it still can easily leave a bad taste in the mouth of immature fans like me. That's the best I can explain it. I don't like the soap operaization of this league and sports in general, and I think even the functionally trivial types of tampering that you describe can contribute to that. I think that at least marginally hurts entertainment value to me. Fortunately nobody ever really wants to leave the Bulls.

I can see why you would want the us against them days where many players/teams disliked each other and it wasn't a big friendly everyone is buddy buddy and hugging and exchanging jerseys after the game etc.. The rivalry's felt like they were between players rather than fans (or at least the players participated more). That seems less common these days, and there is something lost there.

I don't think that's really related to tampering in this sense of did an organization contact a guy who's season is over and will be a FA on June 10th instead of July 1st. Those to me seem like different things. Maybe it matters a little more with comments in the press, but again, I think those things are pretty separate issues and certainly that reason isn't along the lines of why tampering rules exist.

The tampering rules are funny in general, because literally in every single post game interview players are commenting on other players and complimenting their performances in some way or another, but the Warriors GM says "We're not interested in trading for a top defensive player from Philly as we don't think he's a good fit" and it's tampering? It's just nonsensical.

One hair to split on the insignificant nature of tampering after season end before FA:

IMO, this notably penalizes teams that play by the rules, because the player and his agent don't know about their interest until they've already been seduced by rule breaking teams potentially for weeks. I suspect this may have been an issue for the Bulls under Paxson, where waiting like good boy scouts cost us Lebron, Wade, Bosh or something like that. Obviously I'm speculating and we may have been tampering with the worst of them. Gar was a known rule breaker in college.

It's also a big help to get early word on FA interest, because it gives you more time to make associated moves that you might otherwise not have made. For example, assume we tampered at least for Lonzo Ball........ Are we so sure that the ways we handled the contracts of Thad, Sato, etc would have been the same if we didn't get early word on the likelihood that we could trade them? Here I was, looking like a naive child in retrospect lol, demanding just ahead of FA that we stretch waive these guys, which would basically have left us with a very different team this year.

Tampering can have a big impact on things like waiving non guaranteed guys just in time, etc.

[superdave]

Apologies if it’s already been mentioned. This delay has less to do with official rules and more to do with the nuanced interplay between the league and Klutch (proxy Lebron). Coming down hard on the Bulls and Rich Paul sends a stink across the league. Especially given the reach of Klutch across so many channels

[sco]

I'm wondering if it has to do with impeded access to phone/email records.

[dougthonus]

One hair to split on the insignificant nature of tampering after season end before FA:

IMO, this notably penalizes teams that play by the rules, because the player and his agent don't know about their interest until they've already been seduced by rule breaking teams potentially for weeks. I suspect this may have been an issue for the Bulls under Paxson, where waiting like good boy scouts cost us Lebron, Wade, Bosh or something like that. Obviously I'm speculating and we may have been tampering with the worst of them. Gar was a known rule breaker in college.

I think your speculation is incorrect based on what I have seen of FA every year. It seems pretty clear to me that everyone is doing this.

It's also a big help to get early word on FA interest, because it gives you more time to make associated moves that you might otherwise not have made. For example, assume we tampered at least for Lonzo Ball........ Are we so sure that the ways we handled the contracts of Thad, Sato, etc would have been the same if we didn't get early word on the likelihood that we could trade them? Here I was, looking like a naive child in retrospect lol, demanding just ahead of FA that we stretch waive these guys, which would basically have left us with a very different team this year.

Tampering can have a big impact on things like waiving non guaranteed guys just in time, etc.

I agree, it's just all of these things are better for the league to allow vs not allow. Why wouldn't you want a team to have certainty before they have to guarantee or not guarantee a player or do a trade?

What would be way more rational is to allow everyone to talk as soon as their season ends, and any players on PO/TO/NG deals are also allowed to talk until their option is picked up or guarantee is met.

[League Circles]

One hair to split on the insignificant nature of tampering after season end before FA:

IMO, this notably penalizes teams that play by the rules, because the player and his agent don't know about their interest until they've already been seduced by rule breaking teams potentially for weeks. I suspect this may have been an issue for the Bulls under Paxson, where waiting like good boy scouts cost us Lebron, Wade, Bosh or something like that. Obviously I'm speculating and we may have been tampering with the worst of them. Gar was a known rule breaker in college.

I think your speculation is incorrect based on what I have seen of FA every year. It seems pretty clear to me that everyone is doing this.

It's also a big help to get early word on FA interest, because it gives you more time to make associated moves that you might otherwise not have made. For example, assume we tampered at least for Lonzo Ball........ Are we so sure that the ways we handled the contracts of Thad, Sato, etc would have been the same if we didn't get early word on the likelihood that we could trade them? Here I was, looking like a naive child in retrospect lol, demanding just ahead of FA that we stretch waive these guys, which would basically have left us with a very different team this year.

Tampering can have a big impact on things like waiving non guaranteed guys just in time, etc.

I agree, it's just all of these things are better for the league to allow vs not allow. Why wouldn't you want a team to have certainty before they have to guarantee or not guarantee a player or do a trade?

What would be way more rational is to allow everyone to talk as soon as their season ends, and any players on PO/TO/NG deals are also allowed to talk until their option is picked up or guarantee is met.

As I said, it puts a team trying to follow the rules at a competitive disadvantage. But for discussion sake, and because you may very well be correct, let's assume everyone is doing it. It still undermines players who have non or partial guaranteed deals (and/or the teams that sign them to those deals), because those, along with team options, etc, are all negotiated with respect to the FA dates in question. When Thad's agent negotiated a partial guarantee, it was done with the intention that the team would have to make the decision BEFORE they knew their FA propsects. With tampering, those contractual terms are manipulated in an unfair way.

Yes, if everyone did it all at the same time as you suggest after the season, this issue would go away, but IMO it's likely that that would just make tampering common during the playoffs and regular season, because frankly people can't help themselves. It's a fundamental problem IMO that is extremely difficult to address, other than by eliminating trades and free agency entirely, which is what I advocate. Sounds crazy but I think it would be a perfectly fair system that would improve entertainment experience for fans. At least this fan.

[kodo]

IMO, this notably penalizes teams that play by the rules, because the player and his agent don't know about their interest until they've already been seduced by rule breaking teams potentially for weeks. I suspect this may have been an issue for the Bulls under Paxson, where waiting like good boy scouts cost us Lebron, Wade, Bosh or something like that. Obviously I'm speculating and we may have been tampering with the worst of them. Gar was a known rule breaker in college.

Nobody is playing by the rules. Marks said that the league found all 30 teams were guilty of tampering.

The discontent from everyone is the league is selectively dealing out punishments, when all 30 teams should be punished. But you can't penalize all 30 first round picks, can you.

It's the equivalent of the City of Chicago handing out $500 fines to anyone going 1 mph over the speed limit. But since everyone does it, they are selectively picking random people to pay the fine. This would cause a major uproar. Because everyone knows the randomness will eventually hit them.

[BeKuK]

I almost forgot that this was still going on. I hope the NBA will be able to decide how to punish the Bulls soon and not later than summer 2024 or autumn 2026 ^^

[MrSparkle]

Baseless speculation.. but could this actually be the cloudy area of it being more Lonzo's/agent's fault than Chicago's?

Bulls were obviously linked with strong interest via media/leaks, but that doesn't necessarily mean AKME were talking directly to Lonzo's camp. I also still find it hard to believe that AK would be responsible for such a blunder, given his tight-lipped and professional approach.

It seems more logical that Lonzo's camp was like "Bulls are my dream fit - get me out of here," and they maneuvered ahead of time to hint they want to be in CHI before NOP had a chance to think about it. That could've just been the cue to be like "okay 85/4 S&T offer the moment FA opens..." Which honestly didn't take a rocket scientist to think up that number. I was quite confident that $15m would be a low-ball, $25m+ would be quite a risky overpay, and $20m ballpark was just about the perfect offer for an up-and-down #2 pick with high-ceiling potential but some notable flaws. So if a amateur speculative fool like me knew the ballpark he was gonna get, why in god's name would some of the most successful front office NBA heads of the past 5-6 years violate common protocol and try to nail down a salary number via text or whatever communication they had? Especially it being a freaking S&T/RFA situation where there is no pressing reason to get it done urgently unless the home team and RFA are really leaning towards a resign/extension.

He was the RFA stuck on a team with a coach and roster that didn't suit his game at all. First thing he said was he's excited to play his natural point guard position again, since he became a kind of secondary play-maker to Zion and spot-up SF under SVG... and there were 8 small guards who couldn't shoot on that roster.

Anyway, this really goes back to me thinking the RFA and Draft systems are both stupid and outdated for today's climate. I don't see the point of wasting 4-6 years on developing a star, even if they're a rookie stud, only to have them get really tired of carrying a tank job (85% of the time) and a small town and demanding to pair with stars or go to the big market. In all honesty, just be able to offer the max to a hyped rookie, and let all that high risk fall on the team willing to pay a fortune to a 19yo. Most contenders and vet star teams are already over the cap, so it's not like the Warriors or Nets could just offer Evan Mobley more money than the Cavs could.

I just feel like there are way too many young players stuck on teams they don't really fit, and by the time they develop into pro vets, the franchise has spend a lot of assets on trying to build a clunker anyway.

There should still be a draft, but it should basically be for long-shot prospects who couldn't command FA money. A 2nd round of sorts. With a small salary structure that doesn't really hit the cap. This means the draft should be AFTER free agency.

All seems more logical to me than this game of charades that teams and players are "supposed to play," when it's obvious that some teams are having under-the-table feelers and some rookies/teams even position and maneuver their ways around in the draft. Do we really want to keep playing these GM games or just simplify the process, and make players and teams target and sign the best mutual fits each year?

[dougthonus]

Yes, if everyone did it all at the same time as you suggest after the season, this issue would go away, but IMO it's likely that that would just make tampering common during the playoffs and regular season, because frankly people can't help themselves. It's a fundamental problem IMO that is extremely difficult to address, other than by eliminating trades and free agency entirely, which is what I advocate. Sounds crazy but I think it would be a perfectly fair system that would improve entertainment experience for fans. At least this fan.

I think if you have a 3 month period where you can talk but cannot agree and you explicitly disallow verbal/handshake deals, then there isn't an incentive to go earlier.

[Pax for Prez]

Silver, just close the issue and move on already !! Nothing to see here.

[Clocian]

Silver, just close the issue and move on already !! Nothing to see here.

[Wingy]

Silver, just close the issue and move on already !! Nothing to see here.

It would be gone already, but y’all keep bumping this damn thread!!

[Repeat 3-peat]

I honestly can't believe this is still ongoing.

[panthermark]

I'm irritated that this is still going. This impacts trades and such. I'm not sure what new information can come to light at this point in time.

[jnrjr79]

I'm irritated that this is still going. This impacts trades and such. I'm not sure what new information can come to light at this point in time.

I would imagine the league thinks that it is a feature and not a bug if its tampering investigations make tampering suspects gun-shy to make trades, because they aren't sure what assets the league may take from then when the investigation is done.

[Jcool0]

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[Michael Jackson]

I'm irritated that this is still going. This impacts trades and such. I'm not sure what new information can come to light at this point in time.

I don’t think it impacts trades, we can’t trade our pick right now anyway and can only trade the Portland one iirc.