If Steph wins MVP, Chip & Finals MVP this year where does he rank ?

[Cubbies2120]

What if he does this and does it for 3 years straight?

Let's slow our roll here...the only award he's favored for right now is MVP.

he would be in the goat conversation top 3 minimum

Ah but not if Tim Duncan unretired right after that and won a few more rings and finally got the DPOY he's been robbed of!

Since we're talking extremely unlikely hypotheticals I thought I'd add my own

[Onus]

Because brainwash by league, media, Nike happens.

If Steph wins again, without any questionable tampering, team constuction, superstar help, it is legitimate to ask what exactly puts LeBron above him, imho. To many people Steph not Bron may be the player of this generation. Not only focussing on the player but also how the game has changed - this is Stephs' league and the game went towards his finesse / crazy shooting style, not Brons' raw force / athleticism.

If steph wins another title and mvp how can anyone put Lebron ahead of him? You give Curry a real superstar to play next to in Kd and everyone whines it’s unfair. You put a real superstar next to Lebron and you might win a title less than 50% chance any given year. Lebron has always had more talent on his teams, Curry is just able to lift his talent he plays with to greater heights. I’m fully expecting by the end of the year they’re going to call this iteration of the warriors a super team like 2015. Haha

Context is the key and posts like this is why other people pounce on Curry like last year, when healthy in his prime he failed to lead his team to the playoff.

You’d have to apply context as to why we missed the playoffs last year. But I’m sure you don’t actually care about context.

[Danny1616]

Steph is already arguably in the top 10.

I would put him ahead of Kobe.

[nikster]

Probably because Wiggins has played better than Harden? On top of that Durant has played significantly better than Curry.

Doesn't look like it, Warriors are up 11-1 in the league right and were projected as a 6 seed. Your clear vindictive and salty attitude makes me laugh at you every time a Warriors topic on here shows up, you can't help yourself.

Yet once again you can't deny anything I said. Durant is playing heads and shoulders above Curry right now who is playing bellow his own standards. Nobody cares about few game difference at this point of the season especially when warriors have had easiest or 2nd easiest schedule so far.

Head and shoulders? Averaging one more point slightly more effectively while Curry averages 1 more assists with similar turnovers. You dont care about a couple wins this early but a couple bounces on jump shots either way places Durant way ahead of Curry?

[Plain Old Josh]

I did not think I had to explain using minutes played and a catch all stat like WS that goes all the way back to the 50s to include the likes of Wilt and Russell is only a part of the equation and mainly just a way to show how Curry hasn't played as much/contributed as much yet as the usual suspect top 11. Nobody in their right mind would argue Stockton ahead of Curry because of longevity. Longevity only really being a factor when comparing players of a similar level is another thing I thought I didn't have to explain.

I also hope you're not just using Curry's 3 championships as an argument for why he should be top 10 when 2 of those came with the most stacked team ever after you just tried to argue against rewarding playing on stacked teams with the play-off WS part.

The main thing I'm arguing is that when a player has significantly less minutes played than another player, the player with significantly less minutes would have to be a clearly better player to justify putting them ahead of the player with more minutes on an all-time list. Curry currently has a lot less time on the court than just about any other top 10 candidate and is even quite a bit behind Bird and Magic still. So how many of the usual suspect top 11 (MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Hakeem) do you think Curry is significantly better than to justify overcoming the longevity disadvantage as of now? Or do you not think this is a productive way of ranking players and after a certain threshold of longevity has been reached, the only thing that should matter is peak/prime?

If Curry wins a championship this year I would clearly put him ahead of Magic. I'd actually put him ahead right now but I can understand hesitance from others. Magic got to play on a stacked team his entire career in a weaker conference. Despite that that team did not reach the peak the Warriors did. Magic never really convincingly showed he could win with a team without all-time great teammates. Curry if he wins this year would be doing it twice.

I agree Magic vs Curry is starting to become a discussion worth having in a career sense but I'm not sure you can confidently say Curry's supporting cast in 2015 with Klay, Dray and Iggy was significantly worse than what Magic had in 87 and 88 with Worthy and a 40 year old Kareem.

Agree. Below is the playoffs Value over Replacement Player rankings of the 2015 Warriors and the 1988 Lakers.





As the numbers show, Kareem was just a shadow of his former greatness during the 1988 playoffs. Although he did hit two of the clutchest free throws in NBA history to keep the Lakers alive in the finals.

Watch on YouTube

[WarriorGM]

If Curry wins a championship this year I would clearly put him ahead of Magic. I'd actually put him ahead right now but I can understand hesitance from others. Magic got to play on a stacked team his entire career in a weaker conference. Despite that that team did not reach the peak the Warriors did. Magic never really convincingly showed he could win with a team without all-time great teammates. Curry if he wins this year would be doing it twice.

I agree Magic vs Curry is starting to become a discussion worth having in a career sense but I'm not sure you can confidently say Curry's supporting cast in 2015 with Klay, Dray and Iggy was significantly worse than what Magic had in 87 and 88 with Worthy and a 40 year old Kareem.

Agree. Below is the playoffs Value over Replacement Player rankings of the 2015 Warriors and the 1988 Lakers.





As the numbers show, Kareem was just a shadow of his former greatness during the 1988 playoffs. Although he did hit two of the clutchest free throws in NBA history to keep the Lakers alive in the finals.

Watch on YouTube

I'm always a little leery of using these advanced metrics that require a lot of calculation because one can lose one's grasp of their meaning relatively easily. In the above case for example Curry has a clear BPM advantage over Magic but the same VORP. VORP is mainly based on BPM but adjusted for something called % of possessions. From what I can gather what those numbers mean in this particular case is that Curry was better with possession but his % of possession was less so VORP evened out. Looking at the relationship between BPM and VORP for the other players on the team I get the impression the playstyle of the team has a significant effect on how these numbers are computed and distributed among the team's players. BPM assigns different coefficients to players at different positions so a block made by a point guard is given more value than a block by a center for example. If a team plays positionless style that would seem to bump up the BPM values in comparison with a team that plays more traditionally. The more I look into it the more I'm unsure what to make of these numbers.

[Doctor MJ]

I understand why you say that as KD is playing like an MVP (as is Jokic), but still strongly disagree.

If the Warriors keep up what they’re doing, the narrative will consolidate around Curry, and justifiably so given that with him on the court they are currently better than they were in the KD years and better than what KD has ever seen anywhere.

Of course, if the Warriors come back down to earth, that will open the door for others, and there will likely be a lot of momentum for KD.

Is there a reason why KD playing with Harden isn't a thing?

Probably because Wiggins has played better than Harden? On top of that Durant has played significantly better than Curry.

I’ll second that Wiggins has played better than Harden so far, though will say that there’s an argument to be made that when you rip teams apart to make own roster, you’re on the hook for that roster. I’m sure you’d disagree though and that’s reasonable.

I think the more significant point though in terms of “most valuable” is that the way defenses play against Curry, he adds massive value just by stepping in the court.

The Warriors aren’t where they are because Wiggins or Poole look like Top 25 level talents out there. They are where they are because players who get used to playing with Curry realize how many gaps in tbe defense are left.

While KD has some impact along these lines, to this point it’s never been to anywhere near the same degree.

None of this is to say that Curry should win the MVP regardless of how well he’s actually shooting. But when your are the focal point of opponent defensive strategy, your direct scoring volume/efficiency is elite, and you’re leading the league in plus minus by a wide margin, that’s the essence of value creation right there.

In the end the MVP itself is heavily shaped by narrative of course so I’m not saying gauges of impact will determine who wins the award, but right now the positive story of the year by far is that the Warriors are the best team in the league again with no secondary scorer anywhere near as good as Klay, let alone KD.

Add in that Curry had a ton of narrative momentum after last season - which granted KD did as well - and we’re talking about massive resonance in his MVP narrative while KD is trapped inside of the “What went wrong in Brooklyn?” narrative.

Unless things flip, MVP history sides with the winners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dutchball97]

I agree Magic vs Curry is starting to become a discussion worth having in a career sense but I'm not sure you can confidently say Curry's supporting cast in 2015 with Klay, Dray and Iggy was significantly worse than what Magic had in 87 and 88 with Worthy and a 40 year old Kareem.

Agree. Below is the playoffs Value over Replacement Player rankings of the 2015 Warriors and the 1988 Lakers.





As the numbers show, Kareem was just a shadow of his former greatness during the 1988 playoffs. Although he did hit two of the clutchest free throws in NBA history to keep the Lakers alive in the finals.

Watch on YouTube

I'm always a little leery of using these advanced metrics that require a lot of calculation because one can lose one's grasp of their meaning relatively easily. In the above case for example Curry has a clear BPM advantage over Magic but the same VORP. VORP is mainly based on BPM but adjusted for something called % of possessions. From what I can gather what those numbers mean in this particular case is that Curry was better with possession but his % of possession was less so VORP evened out. Looking at the relationship between BPM and VORP for the other players on the team I get the impression the playstyle of the team has a significant effect on how these numbers are computed and distributed among the team's players. BPM assigns different coefficients to players at different positions so a block made by a point guard is given more value than a block by a center for example. If a team plays positionless style that would seem to bump up the BPM values in comparison with a team that plays more traditionally. The more I look into it the more I'm unsure what to make of these numbers.

VORP is mainly BPM adjusted for games played with the possession % being used to account for high usage players contributing more than roleplayers with high BPM numbers. So the main reason Curry has a higher BPM but equal VORP to Magic is because of Magic playing more minutes. One thing to take into account is 3PM being heavily taken into account in the formula, which heavily favors Curry in this comparison and is important for Curry having a higher BPM in the first place.

The key thing is BPM probably being the best and most "accurate" stat available before the mid 90s. It isn't perfect but it tells enough to show the quality of their respective teams in the discussed seasons were similar. Neither Worthy nor a Kareem at the tail end of their career were impactful enough to claim Magic had way more help than Curry did in 2015.

[formula 400]

better than bird at least

[Peregrine01]

Another thing that deserves mention: Curry is playing the best defense I've ever seen from him. Along with Jokic, the change in rules have allowed him to be more aggressive on defense whereas previously they were afraid of getting into foul trouble. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that he's been one of the best defensive guards this year.

[WarriorGM]

Agree. Below is the playoffs Value over Replacement Player rankings of the 2015 Warriors and the 1988 Lakers.





As the numbers show, Kareem was just a shadow of his former greatness during the 1988 playoffs. Although he did hit two of the clutchest free throws in NBA history to keep the Lakers alive in the finals.

Watch on YouTube

I'm always a little leery of using these advanced metrics that require a lot of calculation because one can lose one's grasp of their meaning relatively easily. In the above case for example Curry has a clear BPM advantage over Magic but the same VORP. VORP is mainly based on BPM but adjusted for something called % of possessions. From what I can gather what those numbers mean in this particular case is that Curry was better with possession but his % of possession was less so VORP evened out. Looking at the relationship between BPM and VORP for the other players on the team I get the impression the playstyle of the team has a significant effect on how these numbers are computed and distributed among the team's players. BPM assigns different coefficients to players at different positions so a block made by a point guard is given more value than a block by a center for example. If a team plays positionless style that would seem to bump up the BPM values in comparison with a team that plays more traditionally. The more I look into it the more I'm unsure what to make of these numbers.

VORP is mainly BPM adjusted for games played with the possession % being used to account for high usage players contributing more than roleplayers with high BPM numbers. So the main reason Curry has a higher BPM but equal VORP to Magic is because of Magic playing more minutes. One thing to take into account is 3PM being heavily taken into account in the formula, which heavily favors Curry in this comparison and is important for Curry having a higher BPM in the first place.

The key thing is BPM probably being the best and most "accurate" stat available before the mid 90s. It isn't perfect but it tells enough to show the quality of their respective teams in the discussed seasons were similar. Neither Worthy nor a Kareem at the tail end of their career were impactful enough to claim Magic had way more help than Curry did in 2015.

The main point of separation in the BPM numbers is in the DBPM which is something that's always been of questionable value. Without a more detailed breakdown I have issues identifying what is actually contributing to the Warriors teammates having better numbers. Is it really innate talent or is it something like better spacing? It's been observed that Curry has a tendency to help raise the TS% of his teammates. In such cases that would be correctly considered a Curry effect not teammates being better players. It could be better coaching or a flattering playstyle. Too many variables in play to make a conclusion.

[Dutchball97]

I'm always a little leery of using these advanced metrics that require a lot of calculation because one can lose one's grasp of their meaning relatively easily. In the above case for example Curry has a clear BPM advantage over Magic but the same VORP. VORP is mainly based on BPM but adjusted for something called % of possessions. From what I can gather what those numbers mean in this particular case is that Curry was better with possession but his % of possession was less so VORP evened out. Looking at the relationship between BPM and VORP for the other players on the team I get the impression the playstyle of the team has a significant effect on how these numbers are computed and distributed among the team's players. BPM assigns different coefficients to players at different positions so a block made by a point guard is given more value than a block by a center for example. If a team plays positionless style that would seem to bump up the BPM values in comparison with a team that plays more traditionally. The more I look into it the more I'm unsure what to make of these numbers.

VORP is mainly BPM adjusted for games played with the possession % being used to account for high usage players contributing more than roleplayers with high BPM numbers. So the main reason Curry has a higher BPM but equal VORP to Magic is because of Magic playing more minutes. One thing to take into account is 3PM being heavily taken into account in the formula, which heavily favors Curry in this comparison and is important for Curry having a higher BPM in the first place.

The key thing is BPM probably being the best and most "accurate" stat available before the mid 90s. It isn't perfect but it tells enough to show the quality of their respective teams in the discussed seasons were similar. Neither Worthy nor a Kareem at the tail end of their career were impactful enough to claim Magic had way more help than Curry did in 2015.

The main point of separation in the BPM numbers is in the DBPM which is something that's always been of questionable value. Without a more detailed breakdown I have issues identifying what is actually contributing to the Warriors teammates having better numbers. Is it really innate talent or is it something like better spacing? It's been observed that Curry has a tendency to help raise the TS% of his teammates. In such cases that would be correctly considered a Curry effect not teammates being better players.

DBPM is a very questionable stat but the Warriors were the best defense in the league and that is rightfully attributed to the likes of Dray and Iggy. It isn't like Curry's gravity makes them significantly better on the defensive end. While Curry definitely makes his teammates better the same can be said of Magic. Curry's ability to make his teammates better is more relevant in a comparison against an ISO scorer like KD than it is against arguably the greatest floor general ever in Magic.

[Dutchball97]

As to the last two edited in sentences, if there are too many variables to make conclusions on who had better teammates, how can you say Curry won a ring without all-time great help while Magic didn't?

[WarriorGM]

DBPM is a very questionable stat but the Warriors were the best defense in the league and that is rightfully attributed to the likes of Dray and Iggy. It isn't like Curry's gravity makes them significantly better on the defensive end. While Curry definitely makes his teammates better the same can be said of Magic. Curry's ability to make his teammates better is more relevant in a comparison against an ISO scorer like KD than it is against arguably the greatest floor general ever in Magic.

Frankly I wonder if we aren't missing some deeper connection. What makes me question the above logic is the experience of the 2020 and 2021 Warriors. They went from a defensive rating of 26th to 5th. That's a far larger improvement than the offensive rating improvement they experienced. Main change Wiggins and Steph.

I'm not sure if there are biases in the way BPM handles spacing advantages vs. passing advantages so cannot really say.

I guess what I'm really saying here is I'm not going to accept conclusions on metrics I don't understand and will not accept interpretation by others as sufficient when I know their complexity makes clear understanding difficult.

As to the last two edited in sentences, if there are too many variables to make conclusions on who had better teammates, how can you say Curry won a ring without all-time great help while Magic didn't?

I'd prefer to look at on/off and WOWY data. Along the same lines player performance on a different team. I think I saw WOWY data somewhere showing the Lakers trucked on fine without Magic when Worthy took over.

[Lalouie]

I think it pretty obvious if he achieves all this he’ll be in the top 10 but exactly what position in that top 10 will he rank ?

russell
wilt
kareem
bird
magic
mj
shaq
lebron
kobe
tim
drJ - not by stats but maybe close to the most important player of the group

makes curry not so "obvious". curry certainly has the trappings of a seminal player but again,,,,it AIN'T obvious. but to answer you specifically if curry were to be in the top10 he'd be at the back end. i might take tim and shaq out.

[HiRez]

Another thing that deserves mention: Curry is playing the best defense I've ever seen from him. Along with Jokic, the change in rules have allowed him to be more aggressive on defense whereas previously they were afraid of getting into foul trouble. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that he's been one of the best defensive guards this year.

His block rate so far is higher than it's ever been in his career, by a huge margin, and his steal rate is as high as it's been since 2017. So yes, I think there is something to that. He's not getting called on those ticky-tack reach-in fouls that plagued him for so many years.

As a fan, I love that they're now allowing defenders to actually play some defense with their hands instead of constant "he breathed on him" fouls that made for a terrible viewing experience. This works both ways for Curry, by the way, he's getting a lot fewer foul calls from defenders getting handsy with him too (but many of these were never called anyway), but overall I think it's a good trade-off for the players and the fans.

[Strepbacter]

Top 15.

[DroseReturnChi]

top 15

[zero2hero]

Above Kobe

[michaelm]

Discussing hypotheticals is meaningless/pointless.