better peak: Charles barkley vs kawhi leonard

[falcolombardi]

which one reached higher heights as a player ?

[70sFan]

I see what you're thinking about

[Cavsfansince84]

Kawhi by just a tad imo though it was very short lived. Had Kawhi not gotten the injury in 2017 I think it becomes more apparent though the 2019 run might also be evidence of it. Kawhi at his best was a top 5 offensive player and top defender at his position.

[Dutchball97]

Offensively it is close but Kawhi's defense is leagues better. The durability concerns will always be there for Kawhi but I don't think that's enough for Barkley to come out on top in this comparison.

[mdonnelly1989]

Kawhi wasn't even to 30 and Peak Barkley was like top 20 and now all the sudden Kawhi is higher?

[LukaTheGOAT]

I take Kawhi on the basis he is a better scorer and defender. I also think we might underrate the length of time Kawhi has been torturing teams in the PS; a long enough period that we know it isn't an accident.

For example, Kawhi has some absurd 3-year PS scoring stretches.

From 15-17, Kawhi had an Inflation Adjusted Average of 27.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.1%)

From 17-19 (So really 2 years because he didn't play in 18), Kawhi had an Inflation Adjusted Average of 29.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.4%)

From 19-21, Kawhi had an Inflation Adjusted Average of 28.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 7.2%).


If we compare that to Barkely, his best 3-year PS scoring stretches

94-96, Inflation Adjusted Average of 26.3 pts per 75 (rTS% of 5.8%)

87-89, Inflation Adjusted Average of 23.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 11.5%)

89-91, Inflation Adjusted Average of 24 pts per 75 (rTS% of 7.8%)

Barkley was clearly a phenomenal scorer, but one might question if he could ramp up his volume to the extent that Kawhi did. Kawhi also beats him in the all-in-one PS metrics we have available for them.

Kawhi PS Peaks

3-year Backpicks BPM (19-21): 7.2

5-year PS BPM (15-19):8.92

I have not tried to calculate what happens if you include Kawhi's 21 PS so it could be higher than what is shown here.

Charles Barkley PS Peaks

3-year PS Backpicks BPM (92-94): 6.6

5-year PS BPM (90-94): 7.52

BPM is the type of stat you would expect to make Barkley look about as good as he possibly can since it values efficient scoring and rebounding I would say more than other models, and perhaps is not the most precise with pinpointing defensive value for man -to-man specialist defenders like Kawhi. Yet, Kawhi still looks better because he is really is that special of a PS scorer.

Also with Barkley we have the rare case of of plus-minus data of his RS' prior to 96-97 when it is widely available for every player. And his RS performance does not scream he is better than Kawhi either.

Kawhi AuPM/G

21: 4.9
20: 4.7
19: 4.1

Barkley

90: 4.1
89: 3.9
97: 3.6

When you consider Kawhi is a much better defender, and he is a perimeter defender, while Barkley plays at the 2nd most important defensive position in the game and was a negative, I have much more confidence in going with Kawhi here than Barkley from a team building standpoint. Barkley isn't outright better offensively from what I can see, and Kawhi is clearly superior as a defender. Barkley limits the ceiling of your defense in many scenarios.

I'm aware that Barkley is a better passer than Kawhi, but I am not convinced he is creating significantly more for other than Kawhi, especially with Kawhi handling the ball more than him.

[prolific passer]

Kawhi is the better defender but Barkley is pretty much better at everything else.

[penbeast0]

Although Charles was a strong playoff performer, Kawhi was better. Maybe not offensively though they are close, but certainly defensively. That's enough to make up for all the time off that Kawhi apparently needs.

Prime, I think the constant rest days and the like hurt Kawhi more; would have to think more about it but leaning Chuck.

Career, I think Charles takes it on longevity.

[Cavsfansince84]

Kawhi is the better defender but Barkley is pretty much better at everything else.

Come on. Kawhi is a really good 3 pt shooter who has shown he can consistently do it even better in the playoffs. That's a big difference just in itself. Kawhi's size at his position is also an advantage. Bigger and longer pf's gave Barkley some trouble while Kawhi can overpower most any sf in the post and get by most as well.

[70sFan]

Bigger and longer pf's gave Barkley some trouble

Did they? I don't remember Chuck struggling against any particular type of defender to be honest.

[Cavsfansince84]

Bigger and longer pf's gave Barkley some trouble

Did they? I don't remember Chuck struggling against any particular type of defender to be honest.

That's what Chuck always claimed. He's told stories about how McHale would abuse him on defense so if he's admitting it there has to be a large degree of truth to it I would think. Maybe someone could punch in the numbers for Barkley against the Celtics from 87-91 somewhere and see what comes up just to find out.

[70sFan]

Bigger and longer pf's gave Barkley some trouble

Did they? I don't remember Chuck struggling against any particular type of defender to be honest.

That's what Chuck always claimed. He's told stories about how McHale would abuse him on defense so if he's admitting it there has to be a large degree of truth to it I would think. Maybe someone could punch in the numbers for Barkley against the Celtics from 87-91 somewhere and see what comes up just to find out.

From what I've heard, Barkley said that about McHale on offense, that he was unable to guard Kevin. I haven't seen Chuck claiming that McHale could shut him down or anything, but I could be wrong of course.

[prolific passer]

Bigger and longer pf's gave Barkley some trouble

Did they? I don't remember Chuck struggling against any particular type of defender to be honest.

He didn't have any problem with 6'10" 255-260 pound Shawn Kemp in the 93 wcf.

[Cavsfansince84]

From what I've heard, Barkley said that about McHale on offense, that he was unable to guard Kevin. I haven't seen Chuck claiming that McHale could shut him down or anything, but I could be wrong of course.

3 min video

Watch on YouTube

[Cavsfansince84]

Bigger and longer pf's gave Barkley some trouble

Did they? I don't remember Chuck struggling against any particular type of defender to be honest.

He didn't have any problem with 6'10" 255-260 pound Shawn Kemp in the 93 wcf.

I don't think Kemp was close to 250lb in 1993. I mean he was still strong and whatnot but also still very young.

[prolific passer]

To be fair to McHale. He has 1 of the best 2 post games in the history of the nba. Not many people could guard him when he was in his prime.

[70sFan]

From what I've heard, Barkley said that about McHale on offense, that he was unable to guard Kevin. I haven't seen Chuck claiming that McHale could shut him down or anything, but I could be wrong of course.

3 min video

Watch on YouTube

Thanks for the video!

By the way, I checked Barkley's stats vs McHale in 1987-89 period:

40.6 mpg, 27.0 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 57.1 FG%, 74.0 FT% and 63.7 TS% in 10 games (excluding one blow-out loss when McHale played less than 20 min).

Slightly less efficient but higher volume.

[prolific passer]

From what I've heard, Barkley said that about McHale on offense, that he was unable to guard Kevin. I haven't seen Chuck claiming that McHale could shut him down or anything, but I could be wrong of course.

3 min video

Watch on YouTube

Thanks for the video!

By the way, I checked Barkley's stats vs McHale in 1987-89 period:

40.6 mpg, 27.0 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 57.1 FG%, 74.0 FT% and 63.7 TS% in 10 games (excluding one blow-out loss when McHale played less than 20 min).

Slightly less efficient but higher volume.

Seen Barkley went 17-18 against McHale. Averaged more ppg and rpg against him though. As a rookie in their only playoff matchup. Barkley and Mchale both averaged 11rpg against each other in that series.

[feyki]

I have 89/91 Barkley over 19 Kawhi, as about the half SRS. Kawhi was higher volume scorer and better defender(pre-17 Kawhi much better), Kawhi also had better shot efficiency; but Barkley was better playmaker and GOAT level rebounder compared to Kawhi's above average(lg). Barkley's rebounding gap around the 2,5/3 SRS over of Kawhi's rebounding impact over average. It's multiplying 2 times Kawhi's defensive gap over him. In other words, that gap is as high as 15/16 Kawhi's defensive impact over 94/95 Barkley's.

If Kawhi would be a player like 19 Kawhii Offence and 15 Kawhi Defence, I would take him over Peak Barkley and arguably in the top 15 peaks.

[No-more-rings]

Barkley may be the better and more consistent regular season player, but I don't think Barkley ever reached the level Kawhi did in the playoffs in 2017, 2019 or 2021. Aside from one mediocre series in the 2020, Kawhi has been pretty rock solid against almost any defense. To me the main arguments against Kawhi are health and regular season effort. I'm not saying those are small deals BTW. If you ask who's prime is better I'm taking Barkley, if you ask who I'm taking if both are healthy for a year or 3 year peak give me Kawhi.