JJ Redick: “Players from the 50s, 60s, 70s could not play in today’s NBA”

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Can a modern team beat this team
Wilt
Russell
Best of Magic, Draymond and Satch Sanderrs
Best of Tom Mcsherry, Tom Heihnson and Kurt Rambis
Best of Havlicek, Paul Arizin and Iguodala
Best of Tom Gola, Sam Jones, Klay Thompson, and Jamal Wilkes
Best of Frank Ramsy and Michael Cooper
Best of Guy Rogers, Bob Cousy, Norm Nixon and Steph Curry
Best of Al Attles an KC Jones

I gave the team 2 modern shooters Steph and Klay and 2 modern guys Draymond and Iguodala who know how to pass to Steph and Klay

I gave the team the fast break speed guys from the 1982 Lakers.
Remember the 1980s are supposed to suck.
And I gave the team the 1962 eastern conference finalists Celtics and Philadelphia Warriors.

1960s Celtics are winners.
Young Wilt racked up the stats, total domination until he faced the Celtics

Steph Curry gets the speed of Norm Nixon and Guy Rodgers and the fancy passing of Cousy.

Magic and Draymond is the ultimate point forward and Satch Sanders is a winner

[Jables]

Full of ****, give them the same training and time to adjust as modern players do and people from 50 years ago are no less talented.

Redick is ass at everything besides shooting and he's gonna act like he'd be Dr. J if he could time travel back then, he'd get his ass kicked and have zero space to do anything.

[Jables]

No duh. The pool of athletes the NBA is drawing from is significantly larger than it was back then, thus the quality/quantity of talent is greater.

There are also 4x+ the number of roster spots and 3x+ as many teams as their were in the 60's and early 70's.

Wilt Chamberlain played 69% of his total career games (828 of 1205) against 13 Hall of Fame Centers.

Bill Russell played 46% of his total games (517 of 1118) against 12 Hall of Fame Centers.

Kareem played 37% of his total games (659 of 1797) against 18 Hall of Fame Centers.

Shaq and Hakeem? Less than 15%.

Cool story. Wilt, Bill and Kareem also played against a lot of scrubs that wouldn't sniff the g-league today, let alone the NBA.

A lot of those guys made the hall of fame because of that. So many dudes in the hall from the early days would not be hall of famers today.

By this logic no one in the modern NBA has proved anything, because they didn't have to play against Wilt, Bill and Kareem. It goes both ways if you think about it for 2 seconds lmao.

[DQuinn1575]

Watch on YouTube

1964 Celtics vs Wilt and the Warriors
Tom Heihnson takes undefensible Horse shots so he has a good excuse for poor shooting percentage
The other guys just aren't good shsooters.
Guy Rodgers can push the ball up the floor quickly when he wants to.

Yes, Boston was last in the league in fg%, and if you take away Wilt the Warriors would be worse.
So the 2 worst shooting teams didn't shoot well.
But yes, shooting is better today, but part of it is the fact that with the 3 pointer, there is more of a premium on shooting
And the other part is that shooting is better.
But it would be interesting to see a Lakers vs Royals game.

[ty 4191]

Yes, Boston was last in the league in fg%, and if you take away Wilt the Warriors would be worse.
So the 2 worst shooting teams didn't shoot well.
But yes, shooting is better today, but part of it is the fact that with the 3 pointer, there is more of a premium on shooting
And the other part is that shooting is better.
But it would be interesting to see a Lakers vs Royals game.

The OTHER part is that these guys were playing on total garbage rims. Ever shoot on outdoor, plain court rims, versus breakaway or double breakaway rims?

It's night and day, folks.

The breakaway rim wasn't introduced until 1981-1982, mostly because Daryl Dawkins was shattering backboards. That helped shooting a great deal.

Then, the DOUBLE breakaway rim was introduced in 2009-2010, which helped launched this (ridiculous) Three Point Contest Era we're in, now.

[SOA]

Yes, Boston was last in the league in fg%, and if you take away Wilt the Warriors would be worse.
So the 2 worst shooting teams didn't shoot well.
But yes, shooting is better today, but part of it is the fact that with the 3 pointer, there is more of a premium on shooting
And the other part is that shooting is better.
But it would be interesting to see a Lakers vs Royals game.

The OTHER part is that these guys were playing on total garbage rims. Ever shoot on outdoor, plain court rims, versus breakaway or double breakaway rims?

It's night and day, folks.

The breakaway rim wasn't introduced until 1981-1982, mostly because Daryl Dawkins was shattering backboards. That helped shooting a great deal.

Then, the DOUBLE breakaway rim was introduced in 2009-2010, which helped launched this (ridiculous) Three Point Contest Era we're in, now.

Great point, and also throw in the fact that guys had to play in unairconditioned gyms, while also having ridden on a yellow dog type bus after having slept on a bed from Motel 6.

And some of those guys during that time literally didn't quit their day job so they weren't in the gym "practicing" 24/7. Go to work in the day, and play ball at night.

[ty 4191]

Yes, Boston was last in the league in fg%, and if you take away Wilt the Warriors would be worse.
So the 2 worst shooting teams didn't shoot well.
But yes, shooting is better today, but part of it is the fact that with the 3 pointer, there is more of a premium on shooting
And the other part is that shooting is better.
But it would be interesting to see a Lakers vs Royals game.

The OTHER part is that these guys were playing on total garbage rims. Ever shoot on outdoor, plain court rims, versus breakaway or double breakaway rims?

It's night and day, folks.

The breakaway rim wasn't introduced until 1981-1982, mostly because Daryl Dawkins was shattering backboards. That helped shooting a great deal.

Then, the DOUBLE breakaway rim was introduced in 2009-2010, which helped launched this (ridiculous) Three Point Contest Era we're in, now.

Great point, and also throw in the fact that guys had to play in unairconditioned gyms, while also having ridden on a yellow dog type bus after having slept on a bed from Motel 6.

And some of those guys during that time literally didn't quit their day job so they weren't in the gym "practicing" 24/7. Go to work in the day, and play ball at night.

Exactly! These guys are pampered to the hilt today. No modern sports medicine, no personal trainers, Converse All Star Shoes (ever try to play 40+ minutes a game in THOSE garbage shoes)? etc. etc.

TWENTY players the last 14 years have played at least 10,000 minutes after turning 32.

1960-1973? FIVE players managed to do so.

Garbage training, no sports science, garbage equipment, etc. etc.

Much tougher to play a very long time then, versus now. And, in general...

[Dmagic]

yeah jj a fool pray for him

[Dmagic]

dumb to compare eras no matter what its always been the most capable athletes making it to the pros. so stfu

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Also player in the 1960s were seriously not allowed to travel. It gives their dribbling a tentative look and reduces their scoring opportunities. I had to watch a significant amount of okd film before I could get a feel f0r the 1960s traveling rules. Traveling was not called more because the pkayers made very very sure not to travel.


I grew up overdribbling as my response to being unclear on the traveling rules. I could take the ball anywhere at high speed against any defender. But I sucked. 1 skill does not make a player. I am bad at recognizing faces. I had a hard time recognizing my teammates while dribbling fast or just remembering who was on my team. Uniforms would have helped me but I am talking playground. I could create my own shot but I was not a good shooter. One full court game I was like Gus Williams pulling up and nailing mid range shots like they were easy but normally I missed those shots.

The 1960s players rather than overdribbling seem to stop and establish a pivot.

[draftnightsuit]

Also player in the 1960s were seriously not allowed to travel. It gives their dribbling a tentative look and reduces their scoring opportunities. I had to watch a significant amount of okd film before I could get a feel f0r the 1960s traveling rules. Traveling was not called more because the pkayers made very very sure not to travel.


I grew up overdribbling as my response to being unclear on the traveling rules. I could take the ball anywhere at high speed against any defender. But I sucked. 1 skill does not make a player. I am bad at recognizing faces. I had a hard time recognizing my teammates while dribbling fast or just remembering who was on my team. Uniforms would have helped me but I am talking playground. I could create my own shot but I was not a good shooter. One full court game I was like Gus Williams pulling up and nailing mid range shots like they were easy but normally I missed those shots.

The 1960s players rather than overdribbling seem to stop and establish a pivot.

Reduces scoring opportunities? You do realize that the 60s had the highest scoring numbers in the history of the league, right? 60s NBA was just dribbling up the court and trading layups.

[twyzted]

watching games even back in the 80s the apporoach was much simpler and easier to defend than many of the modern approaches. weve literally had to change rules on both sides of the ball to compensate.

players learn these techniques at a young age and implement them. sure the older players may have adjusted and certainlyt some would have but based on the modern game some of the greats would have been less great and some guys nobody remembers would have even been better today. not everybody in this league can just "learn the euro" or "develop the step back" or "improve their range". bigs that cant shoot fts today are damn near unplayable except as chess pieces. dwight howard went from mvp candidate to bum putting up the exact same numbers with the exact same game over like just 3-4 years. think about that for a minute.

the one other thing that cant even be debated is modern players are far more dedicated professionally than previous eras generally. take bird for example. his career was shortened because he **** his back up on his mothers driveway. you cant make that up. theres a reason longevity of todays players is longer and it has more to do with beer drinking then toughness. think jordan and barkley and whoever on that one. you had to be tough in previous eras because you were far more likely to be dumb as bricks compared to th modern player and how they approach everything professionally. perhaps the money drives it but needless to say you cant just assume guys would adapt. thats not how this works. if it did then maybe roy tarpley and len bias never do drugs and remeber them instead as the greatest of their generation right?

so when i say smarter thats kind of what im talking about. its a big factor. not just bigger and faster but even as the game is played the entire board has been erased.

Yeah nba players would never drink after a game certainly not in 2020

And yes the iq sky rocketed for humanity in between 1960-2000

Im pretty certain many nba players do drugs today.

hard drug and alcohol abuse were far more prevelent in previous generations than now. not even something id be willing to debate its so well known. the league is cleaner than ever with performance enhancing drugs probably the biggest cause for concern. todays guys are fine wine sipping coffee connoiseurs as a rule. more likely to stay up late playing video games than going out. now alot of them smoke pot but with what we know about that drug now even that does them more good than harm....... obviously better than the oft reported all night drinking binges and coke use of previous gens.

Per this article drug related deaths are up by a huge ammount.

Nba players do still drink after games.

From 86-2000 4 players got bans for drug use.
From 2010 3 players have received bans for drug use.

Weed is not some magic drug that only does you good.

[dlts20]

He’s 100% correct but he should’ve added the 80s and 90s to the list.

Guys like Kareem and especially Wilt could play. Today. Wilt is a world class athlete. A ton of guys from the 80s and especially 90s could play today. MJ would still be the best player in the league

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Also player in the 1960s were seriously not allowed to travel. It gives their dribbling a tentative look and reduces their scoring opportunities. I had to watch a significant amount of old film before I could get a feel for the 1960s traveling rules. Traveling was not called more because the players made very very sure not to travel.



The 1960s players seem give up their dribble and stop and establish a pivot.

Reduces scoring opportunities? You do realize that the 60s had the highest scoring numbers in the history of the league, right? 60s NBA was just dribbling up the court and trading layups.

The pace was fast. They were flinging up shots in the fast break that they could not hit because their half court game was so bad.

1960s players in on average were really bad at shooting. Late 1960s John Havlicek was a fairly high volume shooter in the half court. He shot a lot weakly contested midrange and deep midrange. Those were not bad shots but Havlicek shot at a bad percentage relative to 1970s players including the improved shooting 1970s Havilcek.

I think expectations are an issue. 1980s players did not know that they should be shooting more 3s and higher percentages. 1980s players barely practiced the 3.

1960s players did not know that FG 42% was a bad shooting oercentage because in their time FG 42% was a mediocre shooting percentage. They did not know that they should be hitting open 18 footers at 48% or higher.

The ball players were not paid all that well. Why should they spend an extra 3 hours a day practing jump shooting.




I have no idea why the 1960s players were shooting open jump shots at 39%

1960s players did not grew up watching NBA on TV. The NBA was arround in their youth but televised games were rare.
Oscar showed a generation of youth what you could do with a hard stop pull up jump shot. By the 1970s everybody was using Oscar's moves.

If the 60s players have been allowed to travel like 2020 players maybe they couldn't get more layups. They needed more layups because they couldn't shoot jump shots. Their jump shots is so bad that you saw them taking running hook shots.

I Wish running hot shots were good shots because I like looking at at running hook shots. Modern players abandonned running hook shots because they are low percentage shots.

Just look at FG percentage in the 1960s. Horrible.scoring 130 points is meaningless if your opponant scores 140 points. I heard an interview with Satch Sanders and Frank Ramsey explaining why they were throwing up fast break garbage shots that don't go in the basket. They said that Red Auerbach told them to do that. They said that Red Auerbach that more possessions at the opposing team mentally because of the stress of having to shoot against the Celtics defense . Red wanted to get back on defense in a hurry . Just fire up some garbage and then turn up that defense and the other team will crack mentally under the defensive pressure. Sounds strange but I won't second guess Red Auerbach.

I don't think the 1960s players were so bad athletically; their dribbling made them look a little bad athletically but I blame that on the way traveling was called; but when it comes to shooting They sucked.

[DQuinn1575]

Yes, Boston was last in the league in fg%, and if you take away Wilt the Warriors would be worse.
So the 2 worst shooting teams didn't shoot well.
But yes, shooting is better today, but part of it is the fact that with the 3 pointer, there is more of a premium on shooting
And the other part is that shooting is better.
But it would be interesting to see a Lakers vs Royals game.

The OTHER part is that these guys were playing on total garbage rims. Ever shoot on outdoor, plain court rims, versus breakaway or double breakaway rims?

It's night and day, folks.

The breakaway rim wasn't introduced until 1981-1982, mostly because Daryl Dawkins was shattering backboards. That helped shooting a great deal.

Then, the DOUBLE breakaway rim was introduced in 2009-2010, which helped launched this (ridiculous) Three Point Contest Era we're in, now.

Great point, and also throw in the fact that guys had to play in unairconditioned gyms, while also having ridden on a yellow dog type bus after having slept on a bed from Motel 6.

And some of those guys during that time literally didn't quit their day job so they weren't in the gym "practicing" 24/7. Go to work in the day, and play ball at night.

I really don't think anybody in the NBA in the 60s was working a job during the day and playing in the league game at night. The average salary, although nothing like today, was still above the national average. Plus with the travel it would be impossible for anybody to do this. John Havlicek made $15k and $18k his first 2 years, while the average salary was under $5k -

So it is equivalent to a six figure salary today - not set for life money, but more than enough to not be forced to work two jobs to pay the mortgage or feed the family.


Some guys did work off season, for 2 financial reasons -
1. They did have months off, so like many other seasonal workers they did other jobs.
2. Perhaps even more importantly, they wanted to establish business relationships, because when they did retire, they were not paid enough to be set for life. Many of them went into a sales related field, to capitalize on their name, as virtually any purchasing person in a company would take an appointment from an NBA star.

And some didn't work in the off-season, or in some cases, a few toured and played games.

[SOA]

https://www.talkbasket.net/83764-jerry-west-on-what-it-was-like-to-play-in-the-60s-and-70s-in-the-nba

https://www.limaohio.com/sports/284135/pro-athletes-once-upon-a-laborious-off-deason

https://www.apbr.org/labor.html

And an excerpt from another website: https://www.legendsofbasketball.com/the-nba-biography-they-didnt-teach-you-in-history-class/

Consider those times in the 1960s: NBA players had roommates and washed their own uniforms, local medical people, often veterinarians, were hired to do the pregame taping. There were 20 or more preseason games, two teams traveling together on buses barnstorming through states, playing every night for weeks. And then starting the 80-game season. Airplane travel was, of course, coach, and players would pile into a taxi to get to the game from the hotel. No team bus like today. The team would reimburse the players. Tommy Heinsohn recalls asking for, say, $3.50 and Auerbach saying it cost him $3.25 from the same hotel, so that was all Heinsohn was getting in reimbursement. Philadelphia owner Eddie Gottlieb used to hire a bus to take players to East Coast games, like in New York. He’d sell tickets to fans for the unused seats