Should the Magic start Okeke at the PF position and go back to a more traditional lineup?

swarlesbarkley · Post #21 » by **swarlesbarkley** » Mon Nov 8, 2021 3:42 pm

Honestly I wouldn't even consider putting Isaac in the SL right now.

11 games in and we legit have one of the best starting 5s in the league. Obviously small sample size but don't mess with it.

Bigmagicfan82 · Post #22 » by **Bigmagicfan82** » Mon Nov 8, 2021 8:28 pm

I think Okeke's future is at SF. When JI comes back and WCJ goes back to center permanently, we will have a big hole at that backup PF. We need to trade Ross and/or Harris to fill it.

basketballRob · Post #23 » by **basketballRob** » Mon Nov 8, 2021 8:42 pm

TwoStarz wrote:When is Isaac coming back? Its impossible to find any updates on the guy.

November 13th will be the next update.

The Magic send me the injury report every so often and no one else can look at it.

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RookieStar · Post #24 » by **RookieStar** » Mon Nov 8, 2021 9:08 pm

Bigmagicfan82 wrote:I think Okeke's future is at SF. When JI comes back and WCJ goes back to center permanently, we will have a big hole at that backup PF. We need to trade Ross and/or Harris to fill it.

Backup PF? I assume that spot is only good for 10-15mins right? So why a big hole?

JI, Franz, WCJ, MoWag , Chuma can all play the PF role.. add that to Mo and RoLo for the pure C position..

drsd · Post #25 » by **drsd** » Tue Nov 9, 2021 9:15 pm

Magic_Kingdom wrote:2) After a decent start to the season, Bamba is already regressing to the old Bamba.

Bamba's PER these las two weeks has actually gone up fro the first games of the season.

Over the last five games, he is on about 10/8. He had two "bad games" and neither was horrible.

In the end, I do not think the Magic can surrender Bamba's rebounding, as Okeke's numbers at PF, leading to Carter to slide to the 5, there would be a front court decline.

basketballRob · Post #26 » by **basketballRob** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:52 am

If Carter's out, Okeke will probably start.

We could always give the Kings a couple of second-round picks for Bagley and absorb him with the TPE.

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JTG_92940618 · Post #27 » by **JTG_92940618** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:56 am

basketballRob wrote:If Carter's out, Okeke will probably start.

We could always give the Kings a couple of second-round picks for Bagley and absorb him with the TPE.

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Carter is playing

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Skybox · Post #28 » by **Skybox** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:14 pm

RookieStar wrote:
Bigmagicfan82 wrote:I think Okeke's future is at SF. When JI comes back and WCJ goes back to center permanently, we will have a big hole at that backup PF. We need to trade Ross and/or Harris to fill it.

Backup PF? I assume that spot is only good for 10-15mins right? So why a big hole?

JI, Franz, WCJ, MoWag , Chuma can all play the PF role.. add that to Mo and RoLo for the pure C position..

Yep. Most teams don't go 10 deep in their meaningful rotation...especially, when the games start to matter. You don't need two legit lineups. We have some very versatile guys that can move between spots, depending on matchups or schemes...I'd really like to see some of Isaac at C, Chuma & Franz at Forward experiments...among others. I could see Franz playing 2-4, Isaac 3-5, all of our guards seem to be combo guys (or still figuring out how to play off-ball after dominating their whole lives at lower levels). However, the guard minutes are tougher to figure, I just don't know how it will look for RJ if Fultz returns strong (Please Please). Fultz, Suggs, Cole should gobble up most of the minutes, and a guy like MCW could keep it together for a few mins per game.

For example, with an eight man rotation, each player can go 30 mins...just for general consideration...platoon guys like MCW, RoLo, M. Wagner, etc shouldn't get more than 5 or 10 mins, every other game, if your core is any good...there's no long term future for TRoss and Harris here, whether they are capable or not. They will likely not be the only ones to go, ultimately.

drsd · Post #29 » by **drsd** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:41 am

swarlesbarkley wrote:Honestly I wouldn't even consider putting Isaac in the SL right now.

11 games in and we legit have one of the best starting 5s in the league. Obviously small sample size but don't mess with it.

Carter is playing well at PF and Bamba looks like a starting quality C. At this point, perhaps the Magic should just trade Isaac and move on from such a project player.

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drsd · Post #30 » by **drsd** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:44 am

Skybox wrote:Yep. Most teams don't go 10 deep in their meaningful rotation...especially, when the games start to matter. You don't need two legit lineups. We have some very versatile guys that can move between spots, depending on matchups or schemes...I'd really like to see some of Isaac at C, Chuma & Franz at Forward experiments...among others. I could see Franz playing 2-4, Isaac 3-5, all of our guards seem to be combo guys (or still figuring out how to play off-ball after dominating their whole lives at lower levels). However, the guard minutes are tougher to figure, I just don't know how it will look for RJ if Fultz returns strong (Please Please). Fultz, Suggs, Cole should gobble up most of the minutes, and a guy like MCW could keep it together for a few mins per game.

For example, with an eight man rotation, each player can go 30 mins...just for general consideration...platoon guys like MCW, RoLo, M. Wagner, etc shouldn't get more than 5 or 10 mins, every other game, if your core is any good...there's no long term future for TRoss and Harris here, whether they are capable or not. They will likely not be the only ones to go, ultimately.

And-1

Ideally a team would want a bench with i) a combo guard, a combo forward and a combo-big to set out an 8-man rotation with ii) a classic PG, a multi-skilled wing, and a classic C that set in for when there are foul-trouble issues in a game. That means that there are, game dependent, a rotation between 8 and 11 players. Everyone else on a roster should be for the practice squad.

Orlando is very, very far from this.

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zaymon · Post #31 » by **zaymon** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:20 pm

drsd wrote:
swarlesbarkley wrote:Honestly I wouldn't even consider putting Isaac in the SL right now.

11 games in and we legit have one of the best starting 5s in the league. Obviously small sample size but don't mess with it.

Carter is playing well at PF and Bamba looks like a starting quality C. At this point, perhaps the Magic should just trade Isaac and move on from such a project player.

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I dont want to rain on your parade but Bamba/Carter pairing is not doing very well. All high sample 2 man lineups with Carter are positive outside him next to Bamba, Ross and Harris.
Its Carter who makes Bamba look good (or not very bad at least). Actually i think its front office order to raise Bamba value.
Bamba doesnt look like starting C, not even close.
With Isaac there is potential at least, with Bamba there is close to none. He is so lethargic even during his contract year. I would be terrified to rely on him after he gets paid.

Post #32 » by **Knightro** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:01 pm

zaymon wrote:I dont want to rain on your parade but Bamba/Carter pairing is not doing very well. All high sample 2 man lineups with Carter are positive outside him next to Bamba, Ross and Harris.
Its Carter who makes Bamba look good (or not very bad at least). Actually i think its front office order to raise Bamba value.
Bamba doesnt look like starting C, not even close.
With Isaac there is potential at least, with Bamba there is close to none. He is so lethargic even during his contract year. I would be terrified to rely on him after he gets paid.

Bamba's impact numbers have gone into the toilet over the last handful of games.

He's a guy who's raw box score numbers are often going to look better than he actually played. Like last night he had 14 PTS, 17 REB, 3 AST, 3 BLK, but he was absolutely horrible for the most part.

NET Rating
Carter: -0.5
Bamba: -8.3

Bamba with Carter ON: -2.0
Bamba with Carter OFF: -19.2

Bamba with Suggs ON: +0.7
Bamba with Suggs OFF: -28.2

Xatticus · Post #33 » by **Xatticus** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:31 pm

Knightro wrote:
zaymon wrote:I dont want to rain on your parade but Bamba/Carter pairing is not doing very well. All high sample 2 man lineups with Carter are positive outside him next to Bamba, Ross and Harris.
Its Carter who makes Bamba look good (or not very bad at least). Actually i think its front office order to raise Bamba value.
Bamba doesnt look like starting C, not even close.
With Isaac there is potential at least, with Bamba there is close to none. He is so lethargic even during his contract year. I would be terrified to rely on him after he gets paid.

Bamba's impact numbers have gone into the toilet over the last handful of games.

He's a guy who's raw box score numbers are often going to look better than he actually played. Like last night he had 14 PTS, 17 REB, 3 AST, 3 BLK, but he was absolutely horrible for the most part.

NET Rating
Carter: -0.5
Bamba: -8.3

Bamba with Carter ON: -2.0
Bamba with Carter OFF: -19.2

Bamba with Suggs ON: +0.7
Bamba with Suggs OFF: -28.2

It's the second unit that is getting murdered though. That's where the damage has been done all year long and that's where it happened last night, including when Bamba was on the floor.

It's dismissive to say that it's the fault of Bamba. I think he benefits greatly from playing alongside WCJ, but I think WCJ also benefits from playing alongside Bamba. They have completely different strengths at the defensive end that complement one another. WCJ is a really solid defender against his man, while Bamba is a rim protector. Bamba just isn't good in man-to-man situations and WCJ doesn't really protect the rim. I see people constantly mentioning how much WCJ has benefited from playing at the four, but he hasn't been. He has pretty much always been matched up against the opposition's interior threat when both he and Bamba are out there.

I just don't think Bamba can be successful at this point in a conventional role alongside a standard four, and when WCJ is off the floor, we don't even have that. We really need Isaac back, or at the very least, we need another solid big in our rotation. I just wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Bamba because he really does alter a high number of shots. You see guys put an absurd amount of arc on their shots any time Bamba is in the vicinity. You just have to appreciate what his weaknesses are and don't put him in a position to fail. The zone seems to suit him well.

As for the shooting... I couldn't care less if he has bad shooting nights. If teams leave him open as Washington was doing last night, I want him taking those shots. I trust his shooting and it puts him in a much better situation to get back defensively.

The rest of his offensive game is a work in progress. I don't mind that they are feeding him in the post, even though he doesn't really know what he is doing at this point. He has come a long way as a passer this year, but it is still dreadful. Whenever he has tried to throw the backdoor cuts, he has telegraphed the passes so blatantly that they have turned into easy steals for the opponent. He was completely afraid to do anything but hand the ball off to teammates before this year though, so there are still signs. I think the logical next piece to unlock for Bamba is as a roll man. He had two finishes off of PnRs with Suggs last night where Bamba wasn't really open, but he simply towered over the defender after the switch. Suggs just put the ball up there for Bamba to snag and finish and he has a really soft touch around the rim.

Whether or not we keep him should come down to money. He has shown enough this year that he is worth a roster spot and worth investment, but if he wants a contract in excess of what WCJ is getting, then you have to let him go. His talent is potentially game-changing though.

Post #34 » by **Knightro** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:58 pm

Xatticus wrote:It's dismissive to say that it's the fault of Bamba. I think he benefits greatly from playing alongside WCJ, but I think WCJ also benefits from playing alongside Bamba. They have completely different strengths at the defensive end that complement one another. WCJ is a really solid defender against his man, while Bamba is a rim protector. Bamba just isn't good in man-to-man situations and WCJ doesn't really protect the rim. I see people constantly mentioning how much WCJ has benefited from playing at the four, but he hasn't been. He has pretty much always been matched up against the opposition's interior threat when both he and Bamba are out there.

It's a small sample size, but the numbers haven't really shown this to be the case for what it's worth.

Carter with Bamba ON: -2.0 NET
Carter with Bamba OFF: +3.9 NET

thelead · Post #35 » by **thelead** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:22 am

Knightro wrote:
Xatticus wrote:It's dismissive to say that it's the fault of Bamba. I think he benefits greatly from playing alongside WCJ, but I think WCJ also benefits from playing alongside Bamba. They have completely different strengths at the defensive end that complement one another. WCJ is a really solid defender against his man, while Bamba is a rim protector. Bamba just isn't good in man-to-man situations and WCJ doesn't really protect the rim. I see people constantly mentioning how much WCJ has benefited from playing at the four, but he hasn't been. He has pretty much always been matched up against the opposition's interior threat when both he and Bamba are out there.

It's a small sample size, but the numbers haven't really shown this to be the case for what it's worth.

Carter with Bamba ON: -2.0 NET
Carter with Bamba OFF: +3.9 NET

Who does Bamba play the most minutes with when Carter is off the floor and who does Carter play the most minutes with when Bamba is off the floor? Genuinely curious.

Post #36 » by **Knightro** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:38 am

thelead wrote:Who does Bamba play the most minutes with when Carter is off the floor and who does Carter play the most minutes with when Bamba is off the floor? Genuinely curious.

A lot of these lineups have tiny sample sizes, so it's hard to glean too much from them, but here's the info anyway...

Most used lineups with Bamba and NO Carter
Suggs/Harris/Ross/Okeke/Bamba: -17.0 in 18 minutes
Anthony/Hampton/Ross/F. Wagner/Bamba: -32.9 in 15 minutes
Anthony/Suggs/Ross/F. Wagner/Bamba: +11.4 in 11 minutes
Anthony/Harris/Hampton/F. Wagner/Bamba: -86.8 in 9 minutes

Most used lineups with Carter and NO Bamba
Anthony/Harris/Hampton/F. Wagner/Carter: +27.6 in 20 minutes
Anthony/Ross/F. Wagner/Okeke/Carter: +7.3 in 17 minutes
Anthony/Suggs/Ross/F. Wagner/Carter: +6.1 in 14 minutes
Anthony/Hampton/Ross/Wagner/Carter: +40.0 in 10 minutes

Post #37 » by **Knightro** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:46 am

If you want to break it into pairs...

Anthony/Carter: +3.5
Anthony/Bamba: -1.6

Suggs/Carter: +4.2
Suggs/Bamba: +0.7

Franz/Carter: +4.1
Franz/Bamba: -4.2

Ross/Carter: -9.4
Ross/Bamba: -16.9

Harris/Carter: -14.4
Harris/Bamba: -36.1

Okeke/Carter: +3.7
Okeke/Bamba: -22.5

Hampton/Carter: +4.2
Hampton/Bamba: -31.0

thelead · Post #38 » by **thelead** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:55 am

Knightro wrote:
thelead wrote:Who does Bamba play the most minutes with when Carter is off the floor and who does Carter play the most minutes with when Bamba is off the floor? Genuinely curious.

A lot of these lineups have tiny sample sizes, so it's hard to glean too much from them, but here's the info anyway...

Anthony/Harris/Hampton/F. Wagner/Bamba: -86.8 in 9 minutes

Not sure how a -86.8 is even possible in 9 minutes :lol:

Xatticus · Post #39 » by **Xatticus** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:29 am

Knightro wrote:
Xatticus wrote:It's dismissive to say that it's the fault of Bamba. I think he benefits greatly from playing alongside WCJ, but I think WCJ also benefits from playing alongside Bamba. They have completely different strengths at the defensive end that complement one another. WCJ is a really solid defender against his man, while Bamba is a rim protector. Bamba just isn't good in man-to-man situations and WCJ doesn't really protect the rim. I see people constantly mentioning how much WCJ has benefited from playing at the four, but he hasn't been. He has pretty much always been matched up against the opposition's interior threat when both he and Bamba are out there.

It's a small sample size, but the numbers haven't really shown this to be the case for what it's worth.

Carter with Bamba ON: -2.0 NET
Carter with Bamba OFF: +3.9 NET

Sure. I suppose I should clarify. I don't believe that all of the credit for the frontcourt's contributions in our starting lineup's performances should go to WCJ. I think it's obvious that WCJ is the better player between the two. I also believe it is obvious that he is the more versatile player. WCJ's value isn't as situational. When it comes to help defense though, Bamba just has a much bigger impact. I think their complementary skill sets are a significant reason why the starting lineup has been so good throughout the season.

That said, Bamba can certainly be exploited at the defensive end by teams that have the personnel to do it, so you have to protect him by putting another big on the floor.

The thing is, I never expected Bamba to be good this year, so I'm not going to condemn his performance thus far. He has essentially had his development deferred up until this season, but I think we are finally seeing some indications of improvement. That's what I want to see. I don't think anyone would've expected him to even give us as many minutes per night as he has been.

drsd · Post #40 » by **drsd** » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:27 am

zaymon wrote:I dont want to rain on your parade but Bamba/Carter pairing is not doing very well. All high sample 2 man lineups with Carter are positive outside him next to Bamba, Ross and Harris.
Its Carter who makes Bamba look good (or not very bad at least). Actually i think its front office order to raise Bamba value.
Bamba doesnt look like starting C, not even close.
With Isaac there is potential at least, with Bamba there is close to none. He is so lethargic even during his contract year. I would be terrified to rely on him after he gets paid.

Xatticus' comments really are the point. Yes the Magic starters are only mediocre. And Carter plus Bamba is not a long term solution to anything, but this team is losing games because its bench is one of the worst this team has ever had. Of course that is a reality of a team that started game-1 minus six players. But it is what it is.

I calculate that the Magic would be 5-8 right now if the bench had played to the same efficiency levels as the starters. That is, this team projects to be a tiny bit below mediocre when fully healthy.

The question of this thread though is about Okeke starting over Carter. I still don't see that. I do not see a Okeke/Carter or a Okeke/Bamba pairing as better than a Carter/Bamba pairing.

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