If Steph wins MVP, Chip & Finals MVP this year where does he rank ?

[art_tatum]

Because brainwash by league, media, Nike happens.

If Steph wins again, without any questionable tampering, team constuction, superstar help, it is legitimate to ask what exactly puts LeBron above him, imho. To many people Steph not Bron may be the player of this generation. Not only focussing on the player but also how the game has changed - this is Stephs' league and the game went towards his finesse / crazy shooting style, not Brons' raw force / athleticism.

If steph wins another title and mvp how can anyone put Lebron ahead of him? You give Curry a real superstar to play next to in Kd and everyone whines it’s unfair. You put a real superstar next to Lebron and you might win a title less than 50% chance any given year. Lebron has always had more talent on his teams, Curry is just able to lift his talent he plays with to greater heights. I’m fully expecting by the end of the year they’re going to call this iteration of the warriors a super team like 2015. Haha

Let's ignore the fact that he was on a team with three other top 25 players. Gift Lebron a team with KD, Klay, Draymond, and Iggy and he's winning championships. Put Curry on teams like the 2003-2009 Cavs, the 2018 Cavs, the 2019 Lakers and he's struggling to make the playoffs like last season.

Anthony Davis was a all NBA 1st teamer that year and the most important laker in the playoffs (LeBron was better in the finals only bc he froze AD out as the ball handler) Lol curry would've won the chip that year too like he easily did with KD. And yes curry would lose in 2018 just like LeBron.

He would've been better with the 2003-2009 Cavs than LeBron though, but that's only bc you're putting curry who shoots like 18 3s a game into the 2000s game. He would wreck the league with Cleveland's D and shooters. So not a fair comparison for you. But you didn't never know that. Pre-prime curry took the Spurs to 6 games with David Lee. He would wreck the 2000s. Clearly u see the rule change has no effect on him.

[dcstanley]

If steph wins another title and mvp how can anyone put Lebron ahead of him? You give Curry a real superstar to play next to in Kd and everyone whines it’s unfair. You put a real superstar next to Lebron and you might win a title less than 50% chance any given year. Lebron has always had more talent on his teams, Curry is just able to lift his talent he plays with to greater heights. I’m fully expecting by the end of the year they’re going to call this iteration of the warriors a super team like 2015. Haha

Let's ignore the fact that he was on a team with three other top 25 players. Gift Lebron a team with KD, Klay, Draymond, and Iggy and he's winning championships. Put Curry on teams like the 2003-2009 Cavs, the 2018 Cavs, the 2019 Lakers and he's struggling to make the playoffs like last season.

Anthony Davis was a all NBA 1st teamer that year and the most important laker in the playoffs (LeBron was better in the finals only bc he froze AD out as the ball handler) Lol curry would've won the chip that year too like he easily did with KD. And yes curry would lose in 2018 just like LeBron.

He would've been better with the 2003-2009 Cavs than LeBron though, but that's only bc you're putting curry who shoots like 16 3s a game into the 2000s game. He would wreck the league with Cleveland's D and shooters.

The 2019 Lakers not the 2020 Lakers. Even so, doubt Curry wins with that team. The Lakers needed Lebron's high volume playmaking and defense to win. That team didn't have the spacing and passing that the Warriors have now to truly maximize Curry. Also, Curry didn't only win a chip with KD.. He won with KD, an all-star wing, a DPOY and a 6MOTY. A supporting cast that the league has never seen before.

I doubt Curry would be allowed to take more than 8-10 3s a game in that era and so I seriously doubt he would make those teams any better. Don't want to get caught up in the era-to-era particulars though.. The point is, the last three seasons are the only seasons he's been on rosters that are comparable to Lebron's worst.

[2020]

I think it pretty obvious if he achieves all this he’ll be in the top 10 but exactly what position in that top 10 will he rank ?

Who do you think he pushes out of the Top 10?

1 MJ
2 Lebron
3 Kareem
4 Russell
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Duncan
8 Shaq
9 Wilt
10 Hakeem
11 KD
12 Kobe
13 Steph

Do you really see Curry pushing Kobe and KD out?

[art_tatum]

Let's ignore the fact that he was on a team with three other top 25 players. Gift Lebron a team with KD, Klay, Draymond, and Iggy and he's winning championships. Put Curry on teams like the 2003-2009 Cavs, the 2018 Cavs, the 2019 Lakers and he's struggling to make the playoffs like last season.

Anthony Davis was a all NBA 1st teamer that year and the most important laker in the playoffs (LeBron was better in the finals only bc he froze AD out as the ball handler) Lol curry would've won the chip that year too like he easily did with KD. And yes curry would lose in 2018 just like LeBron.

He would've been better with the 2003-2009 Cavs than LeBron though, but that's only bc you're putting curry who shoots like 16 3s a game into the 2000s game. He would wreck the league with Cleveland's D and shooters.

The 2019 Lakers not the 2020 Lakers. Even so, doubt Curry wins with that team. The Lakers needed Lebron's high volume playmaking and defense to win. That team didn't have the spacing and passing that the Warriors have now to truly maximize Curry. Also, Curry didn't only win a chip with KD.. He won with KD, an all-star wing, a DPOY and a 6MOTY. A supporting cast that the league has never seen before.

I doubt Curry would be allowed to take more than 8-10 3s a game in that era and so I seriously doubt he would make those teams any better. Don't want to get caught up in the era-to-era particulars though.. The point is, the last three seasons are the only seasons he's been on rosters that are comparable to Lebron's worst.

Well the pre- 2015 warriors weren't great either. I think 2013? Iggy wasn't there, Klay was young, Draymond didn't get play. 2nd best player was David Lee. They got to the 2nd round and took the Spurs to 6. The same Spurs who almost beat the heatless (and did the year after).
LeBron is a better floor raiser tho, curry does suffer the misconception that he can't and is only a ceiling raiser.

[Big J]

Anthony Davis was a all NBA 1st teamer that year and the most important laker in the playoffs (LeBron was better in the finals only bc he froze AD out as the ball handler) Lol curry would've won the chip that year too like he easily did with KD. And yes curry would lose in 2018 just like LeBron.

He would've been better with the 2003-2009 Cavs than LeBron though, but that's only bc you're putting curry who shoots like 16 3s a game into the 2000s game. He would wreck the league with Cleveland's D and shooters.

The 2019 Lakers not the 2020 Lakers. Even so, doubt Curry wins with that team. The Lakers needed Lebron's high volume playmaking and defense to win. That team didn't have the spacing and passing that the Warriors have now to truly maximize Curry. Also, Curry didn't only win a chip with KD.. He won with KD, an all-star wing, a DPOY and a 6MOTY. A supporting cast that the league has never seen before.

I doubt Curry would be allowed to take more than 8-10 3s a game in that era and so I seriously doubt he would make those teams any better. Don't want to get caught up in the era-to-era particulars though.. The point is, the last three seasons are the only seasons he's been on rosters that are comparable to Lebron's worst.

Well the pre- 2015 warriors weren't great either. I think 2013? Iggy wasn't there, Klay was young, Draymond didn't get play. 2nd best player was David Lee. They got to the 2nd round and took the Spurs to 6. The same Spurs who almost beat the heatless (and did the year after).
LeBron is a better floor raiser tho, curry does suffer the misconception that he can't and is only a ceiling raiser.

This team is dead last in the west without Curry on it. The only other "star" is Draymond and we saw what the team looked like 2 years ago with only him.

[duppyy]

What if he loses after being up 3-1 in the finals again?

[Ugalde]

Anyone that still thinks Curry is a pathetic defender, their opinion should just be dismissed because its obvious they dont watch the games. His team is the top defensive team in the league and has been near the top much of the time during their championship run, but somehow Curry has such pathetic defense its hurting his team.

people are just not being fair. i get why though. if lebron is at the top of the key and hunts down a switch with curry on him it really shouldn't be expected that curry can guard lebron.

at the same time though it is a good trait a guy like lebron has that he can be switched on to anyone and he can still defend well. a lot of elite players can. curry doesn't have this ability. does that make him a bad defender? no. obviously no regular sized PG can guard the bigger wings on the switch. but it is an advantage when comparing great players when the great can handle switches.

This isn't 2016 anymore.

thanks for letting me know

[WarriorGM]

Anthony Davis was a all NBA 1st teamer that year and the most important laker in the playoffs (LeBron was better in the finals only bc he froze AD out as the ball handler) Lol curry would've won the chip that year too like he easily did with KD. And yes curry would lose in 2018 just like LeBron.

He would've been better with the 2003-2009 Cavs than LeBron though, but that's only bc you're putting curry who shoots like 16 3s a game into the 2000s game. He would wreck the league with Cleveland's D and shooters.

The 2019 Lakers not the 2020 Lakers. Even so, doubt Curry wins with that team. The Lakers needed Lebron's high volume playmaking and defense to win. That team didn't have the spacing and passing that the Warriors have now to truly maximize Curry. Also, Curry didn't only win a chip with KD.. He won with KD, an all-star wing, a DPOY and a 6MOTY. A supporting cast that the league has never seen before.

I doubt Curry would be allowed to take more than 8-10 3s a game in that era and so I seriously doubt he would make those teams any better. Don't want to get caught up in the era-to-era particulars though.. The point is, the last three seasons are the only seasons he's been on rosters that are comparable to Lebron's worst.

Well the pre- 2015 warriors weren't great either. I think 2013? Iggy wasn't there, Klay was young, Draymond didn't get play. 2nd best player was David Lee. They got to the 2nd round and took the Spurs to 6. The same Spurs who almost beat the heatless (and did the year after).
LeBron is a better floor raiser tho, curry does suffer the misconception that he can't and is only a ceiling raiser.

Maybe I missed earlier instances but I only started seeing this talk about "floor raiser" vs. "ceiling raiser" when Curry came on the scene. It's a manufactured distinction because one can easily claim Curry is better at both. LeBron brought his team to the finals?
Curry's won in less time than it took for LeBron to get a ring.

Curry's teammates are portrayed as great although they don't have much of a track record without him while LeBron's are portrayed as trash despite making a name for themselves away from him.

[dcstanley]

The 2019 Lakers not the 2020 Lakers. Even so, doubt Curry wins with that team. The Lakers needed Lebron's high volume playmaking and defense to win. That team didn't have the spacing and passing that the Warriors have now to truly maximize Curry. Also, Curry didn't only win a chip with KD.. He won with KD, an all-star wing, a DPOY and a 6MOTY. A supporting cast that the league has never seen before.

I doubt Curry would be allowed to take more than 8-10 3s a game in that era and so I seriously doubt he would make those teams any better. Don't want to get caught up in the era-to-era particulars though.. The point is, the last three seasons are the only seasons he's been on rosters that are comparable to Lebron's worst.

Well the pre- 2015 warriors weren't great either. I think 2013? Iggy wasn't there, Klay was young, Draymond didn't get play. 2nd best player was David Lee. They got to the 2nd round and took the Spurs to 6. The same Spurs who almost beat the heatless (and did the year after).
LeBron is a better floor raiser tho, curry does suffer the misconception that he can't and is only a ceiling raiser.

Maybe I missed earlier instances but I only started seeing this talk about "floor raiser" vs. "ceiling raiser" when Curry came on the scene. It's a manufactured distinction because one can easily claim Curry is better at both. LeBron brought his team to the finals?
Curry's won in less time than it took for LeBron to get a ring.

Curry won in his sixth season with a great supporting cast. Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut is significantly better than the supporting cast Lebron had in any of his first six seasons. In Lebron's sixth season, he averaged 40, 9, and 9 in the conference finals and lost because Mo Williams, Zydrunas Illgauskas' corpse, Delonte West, and Anderson Varaejo all underperformed.

Lebron's playoff performance in 2009 > Curry's playoff performance in 2015. Sure, Curry won a ring earlier but you're intentionally stripping away a lot of necessary context. Why not go all the way and make some grand proclamations about MJ since he won earlier than him too?

[WarriorGM]

Well the pre- 2015 warriors weren't great either. I think 2013? Iggy wasn't there, Klay was young, Draymond didn't get play. 2nd best player was David Lee. They got to the 2nd round and took the Spurs to 6. The same Spurs who almost beat the heatless (and did the year after).
LeBron is a better floor raiser tho, curry does suffer the misconception that he can't and is only a ceiling raiser.

Maybe I missed earlier instances but I only started seeing this talk about "floor raiser" vs. "ceiling raiser" when Curry came on the scene. It's a manufactured distinction because one can easily claim Curry is better at both. LeBron brought his team to the finals?
Curry's won in less time than it took for LeBron to get a ring.

Curry won in his sixth season with a great supporting cast. Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut is significantly better than the supporting cast Lebron had in any of his first six seasons. In Lebron's sixth season, he averaged 40, 9, and 9 in the conference finals and lost because Mo Williams, Zydrunas Illgauskas' corpse, Delonte West, and Anderson Varaejo all underperformed.

Lebron's playoff performance in 2009 > Curry's playoff performance in 2015. Sure, Curry won a ring earlier but you're intentionally stripping away a lot of necessary context. Why not go all the way and make some grand proclamations about how he's better than MJ since he won earlier than him too?

Curry is a consummate team player. His style of play is designed to get his teammates easier baskets and make them look good. But his teammates haven't really done all that much away from him aside from KD and even he hasn't won a ring yet apart from Curry despite playing with other future and former MVPs. There is simply no basis to presume that Curry's teammates are better than LeBron's.

LeBron's sixth season? The one where he lost to a team led by Dwight Howard leading a similar cast?

Curry and MJ took the same amount of time to turn their respective franchises around and win a championship. MJ does look to be a better comparison. At least there will be a mutual understanding among Warriors and Bulls fans of why unnecessarily talking crap or building up Curry's and MJ's teammates is nonsense.

[dcstanley]

Maybe I missed earlier instances but I only started seeing this talk about "floor raiser" vs. "ceiling raiser" when Curry came on the scene. It's a manufactured distinction because one can easily claim Curry is better at both. LeBron brought his team to the finals?
Curry's won in less time than it took for LeBron to get a ring.

Curry won in his sixth season with a great supporting cast. Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut is significantly better than the supporting cast Lebron had in any of his first six seasons. In Lebron's sixth season, he averaged 40, 9, and 9 in the conference finals and lost because Mo Williams, Zydrunas Illgauskas' corpse, Delonte West, and Anderson Varaejo all underperformed.

Lebron's playoff performance in 2009 > Curry's playoff performance in 2015. Sure, Curry won a ring earlier but you're intentionally stripping away a lot of necessary context. Why not go all the way and make some grand proclamations about how he's better than MJ since he won earlier than him too?

Curry is a consummate team player. His style of play is designed to get his teammates easier baskets and make them look good. But his teammates haven't really done all that much away from him aside from KD and even he hasn't won a ring yet apart from Curry despite playing with other future and former MVPs. There is simply no basis to presume that Curry's teammates are better than LeBron's.

LeBron's sixth season? The one where he lost to a team led by Dwight Howard leading a similarly unspectacular cast?

No basis to suggest that Draymond is one of the greatest defensive players of all-time? Or that Iggy is the ultimate role player? Klay's shooting and defense translates on any team, if he was on a bad team he would be a higher volume scorer and if he was on another good team he would be the perfect complement to a superstar. In fact, we already saw how impactful these guys are in 2016. Curry missed most of the first two rounds and the 73-9 Warriors chugged along nicely despite an MVP sized hole in their rotation. The Warriors won their first round series without Curry and were up 2-1 in the second round before he returned. Klay averaged 31 PPG on 65 TS% and Draymond averaged 22 PPG,11 RPG, 7 APG, 2 SPG, and 3 BPG in the second round. They also won easily in the first round of the 2018 playoffs with Curry missing the entire round. Are you seriously claiming there isn't any basis to suggest that they are better than Mo Williams and Delonte West?

Yeah, Lebron utterly dominated that series and his team lost because of poor role player performance. Mo Williams, Lebron's best teammate, averaged 18 PPG on 50 TS% while Orlando's Rashard Lewis averaged 18 PPG on 64 TS%, Hedo Turkologu averaged 17, 6, and 6 on 52 TS%, and Mickael Pietrus averaged 14 PPG on 70 TS%. That's three players that outperformed the Cavs second best player. Not to mention Dwight utterly dominating Cleveland's weak interior comprised of Illgauskas and Varaejo. Lebron wins that series pretty easily if you give him an average playoff performance from Klay, Draymond, Iggy, and 2015-2017 Bogut.

[WarriorGM]

Curry won in his sixth season with a great supporting cast. Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut is significantly better than the supporting cast Lebron had in any of his first six seasons. In Lebron's sixth season, he averaged 40, 9, and 9 in the conference finals and lost because Mo Williams, Zydrunas Illgauskas' corpse, Delonte West, and Anderson Varaejo all underperformed.

Lebron's playoff performance in 2009 > Curry's playoff performance in 2015. Sure, Curry won a ring earlier but you're intentionally stripping away a lot of necessary context. Why not go all the way and make some grand proclamations about how he's better than MJ since he won earlier than him too?

Curry is a consummate team player. His style of play is designed to get his teammates easier baskets and make them look good. But his teammates haven't really done all that much away from him aside from KD and even he hasn't won a ring yet apart from Curry despite playing with other future and former MVPs. There is simply no basis to presume that Curry's teammates are better than LeBron's.

LeBron's sixth season? The one where he lost to a team led by Dwight Howard leading a similarly unspectacular cast?

No basis to suggest that Draymond is one of the greatest defensive players of all-time? Or that Iggy is the ultimate role player? Klay's shooting and defense translates on any team, if he was on a bad team he would be a higher volume scorer and if he was on another good team he would be the perfect complement to a superstar. In fact, we already saw how impactful these guys are in 2016. Curry missed most of the first two rounds and the 73-9 Warriors chugged along nicely despite an MVP sized hole in their rotation. The Warriors won their first round series without Curry and were up 2-1 in the second round before he returned. Klay averaged 31 PPG on 65 TS% and Draymond averaged 22 PPG,11 RPG, 7 APG, 2 SPG, and 3 BPG in the second round. They also won easily in the first round of the 2018 playoffs with Curry missing the entire round. Are you seriously claiming there isn't any basis to suggest that they are better than Mo Williams and Delonte West?

Yeah, Lebron utterly dominated that series and his team lost because of poor role player performance. Mo Williams, Lebron's best teammate, averaged 18 PPG on 50 TS% while Orlando's Rashard Lewis averaged 18 PPG on 64 TS%, Hedo Turkologu averaged 17, 6, and 6 on 52 TS%, and Mickael Pietrus averaged 14 PPG on 70 TS%. That's three players that outperformed the Cavs second best player. Not to mention Dwight utterly dominating Cleveland's weak interior comprised of Illgauskas and Varaejo. Lebron wins that series pretty easily if you give him an average playoff performance from Klay, Draymond, Iggy, and 2015-2017 Bogut.

Didn't we just see Draymond a couple seasons ago helpless when left on his own as his team scraped the bottom of the league standings without Curry? Iguodala the team's seasoned vet who couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs before joining the Warriors? Klay whose TS% is 10% lower when Steph isn't on the floor with him? We're going to compare them to guys who have won championships and made All-NBA multiple times leading teams like LeBron's teammates did without LeBron?

Oh but we are slicing and dicing to cherry pick certain situations and not just looking at their overall careers are we? Still doesn't work. We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing seconds of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought? If Draymond, Andre, and Klay were forced to play that way to accommodate LeBron's pursuit of glory, no I don't think you'd get the results you think you would.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Curry is a consummate team player. His style of play is designed to get his teammates easier baskets and make them look good. But his teammates haven't really done all that much away from him aside from KD and even he hasn't won a ring yet apart from Curry despite playing with other future and former MVPs. There is simply no basis to presume that Curry's teammates are better than LeBron's.

LeBron's sixth season? The one where he lost to a team led by Dwight Howard leading a similarly unspectacular cast?

No basis to suggest that Draymond is one of the greatest defensive players of all-time? Or that Iggy is the ultimate role player? Klay's shooting and defense translates on any team, if he was on a bad team he would be a higher volume scorer and if he was on another good team he would be the perfect complement to a superstar. In fact, we already saw how impactful these guys are in 2016. Curry missed most of the first two rounds and the 73-9 Warriors chugged along nicely despite an MVP sized hole in their rotation. The Warriors won their first round series without Curry and were up 2-1 in the second round before he returned. Klay averaged 31 PPG on 65 TS% and Draymond averaged 22 PPG,11 RPG, 7 APG, 2 SPG, and 3 BPG in the second round. They also won easily in the first round of the 2018 playoffs with Curry missing the entire round. Are you seriously claiming there isn't any basis to suggest that they are better than Mo Williams and Delonte West?

Yeah, Lebron utterly dominated that series and his team lost because of poor role player performance. Mo Williams, Lebron's best teammate, averaged 18 PPG on 50 TS% while Orlando's Rashard Lewis averaged 18 PPG on 64 TS%, Hedo Turkologu averaged 17, 6, and 6 on 52 TS%, and Mickael Pietrus averaged 14 PPG on 70 TS%. That's three players that outperformed the Cavs second best player. Not to mention Dwight utterly dominating Cleveland's weak interior comprised of Illgauskas and Varaejo. Lebron wins that series pretty easily if you give him an average playoff performance from Klay, Draymond, Iggy, and 2015-2017 Bogut.

Didn't we just see Draymond a couple seasons ago helpless when left on his own as his team scraped the bottom of the league standings without Curry? Iguodala the team's seasoned vet who couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs before joining the Warriors? Klay whose TS% is 10% lower when Steph isn't on the floor with him? We're going to compare them to guys who have won championships and made All-NBA multiple times leading teams like LeBron's teammates did without LeBron?

Oh but we are slicing and dicing to cherry pick certain situations and not just looking at their overall careers are we? Still doesn't work. We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing minutes of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought? If Draymond, Andre, and Klay were forced to play that way to accommodate LeBron's pursuit of glory, no I don't think you'd get the results you think you would.

That Magic team had a defensive rating of 101.9 that was first in the league. The 2009 Cavs had a 110.6 ORTG against that Magic team. That same Magic team that had a RS rDRTG of -6.4 (top 20 defense ever). Lebron had an offensive rating of 118. The Cavs issue was not offense. But furthermore, Steph has never played against a defense that was rated out that well in the PS defensively.

As a matter of fact, that 09 Cavs team had a PS rORTG of 8.3 which is better than PS offense Steph has played on outside of the 2017 team.

[WarriorGM]

No basis to suggest that Draymond is one of the greatest defensive players of all-time? Or that Iggy is the ultimate role player? Klay's shooting and defense translates on any team, if he was on a bad team he would be a higher volume scorer and if he was on another good team he would be the perfect complement to a superstar. In fact, we already saw how impactful these guys are in 2016. Curry missed most of the first two rounds and the 73-9 Warriors chugged along nicely despite an MVP sized hole in their rotation. The Warriors won their first round series without Curry and were up 2-1 in the second round before he returned. Klay averaged 31 PPG on 65 TS% and Draymond averaged 22 PPG,11 RPG, 7 APG, 2 SPG, and 3 BPG in the second round. They also won easily in the first round of the 2018 playoffs with Curry missing the entire round. Are you seriously claiming there isn't any basis to suggest that they are better than Mo Williams and Delonte West?

Yeah, Lebron utterly dominated that series and his team lost because of poor role player performance. Mo Williams, Lebron's best teammate, averaged 18 PPG on 50 TS% while Orlando's Rashard Lewis averaged 18 PPG on 64 TS%, Hedo Turkologu averaged 17, 6, and 6 on 52 TS%, and Mickael Pietrus averaged 14 PPG on 70 TS%. That's three players that outperformed the Cavs second best player. Not to mention Dwight utterly dominating Cleveland's weak interior comprised of Illgauskas and Varaejo. Lebron wins that series pretty easily if you give him an average playoff performance from Klay, Draymond, Iggy, and 2015-2017 Bogut.

Didn't we just see Draymond a couple seasons ago helpless when left on his own as his team scraped the bottom of the league standings without Curry? Iguodala the team's seasoned vet who couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs before joining the Warriors? Klay whose TS% is 10% lower when Steph isn't on the floor with him? We're going to compare them to guys who have won championships and made All-NBA multiple times leading teams like LeBron's teammates did without LeBron?

Oh but we are slicing and dicing to cherry pick certain situations and not just looking at their overall careers are we? Still doesn't work. We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing minutes of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought? If Draymond, Andre, and Klay were forced to play that way to accommodate LeBron's pursuit of glory, no I don't think you'd get the results you think you would.

That Magic team had a defensive rating of 101.9 that was first in the league. The 2009 Cavs had a 110.6 ORTG against that Magic team. That same Magic team that had a RS rDRTG of -6.4 (top 20 defense ever). Lebron had an offensive rating of 118. The Cavs issue was not offense. But furthermore, Steph has never played against a defense that was rated out that well in the PS defensively.

As a matter of fact, that 09 Cavs team had a PS rORTG of 8.3 which is better than PS offense Steph has played on outside of the 2017 team.

We saw the Warriors take down the Thunder in 2016 who eliminated the 67-win Spurs. Are you saying that Magic team was better?

We also saw the Warriors beat LeBron in the 2015 finals. Are we going to hear the same old excuses about that Cavs team?

[LesGrossman]

Because brainwash by league, media, Nike happens.

If Steph wins again, without any questionable tampering, team constuction, superstar help, it is legitimate to ask what exactly puts LeBron above him, imho. To many people Steph not Bron may be the player of this generation. Not only focussing on the player but also how the game has changed - this is Stephs' league and the game went towards his finesse / crazy shooting style, not Brons' raw force / athleticism.

If steph wins another title and mvp how can anyone put Lebron ahead of him? You give Curry a real superstar to play next to in Kd and everyone whines it’s unfair. You put a real superstar next to Lebron and you might win a title less than 50% chance any given year. Lebron has always had more talent on his teams, Curry is just able to lift his talent he plays with to greater heights. I’m fully expecting by the end of the year they’re going to call this iteration of the warriors a super team like 2015. Haha

Let's ignore the fact that he was on a team with three other top 25 players. Gift Lebron a team with KD, Klay, Draymond, and Iggy and he's winning championships. Put Curry on teams like the 2003-2009 Cavs, the 2018 Cavs, the 2019 Lakers and he's struggling to make the playoffs like last season.

Steph has played on his draft team without any superstar help other than two years KD; he still came through consistently. Bron has bailed out, built superteams and still failed. btw he failed to make the playoffs in his first Lakers year. Won a mickey mouse ring in the bubble when AD carried him; got owned by the suns when AD couldnt play. Just stop.

[LesGrossman]

If steph wins another title and mvp how can anyone put Lebron ahead of him? You give Curry a real superstar to play next to in Kd and everyone whines it’s unfair. You put a real superstar next to Lebron and you might win a title less than 50% chance any given year. Lebron has always had more talent on his teams, Curry is just able to lift his talent he plays with to greater heights. I’m fully expecting by the end of the year they’re going to call this iteration of the warriors a super team like 2015. Haha

Let's ignore the fact that he was on a team with three other top 25 players. Gift Lebron a team with KD, Klay, Draymond, and Iggy and he's winning championships. Put Curry on teams like the 2003-2009 Cavs, the 2018 Cavs, the 2019 Lakers and he's struggling to make the playoffs like last season.

Anthony Davis was a all NBA 1st teamer that year and the most important laker in the playoffs (LeBron was better in the finals only bc he froze AD out as the ball handler) Lol curry would've won the chip that year too like he easily did with KD. And yes curry would lose in 2018 just like LeBron.

He would've been better with the 2003-2009 Cavs than LeBron though, but that's only bc you're putting curry who shoots like 18 3s a game into the 2000s game. He would wreck the league with Cleveland's D and shooters. So not a fair comparison for you. But you didn't never know that. Pre-prime curry took the Spurs to 6 games with David Lee. He would wreck the 2000s. Clearly u see the rule change has no effect on him.

I believe there could be 4-5 current players in the league that could have been plugged in in that bubble lakers team next to AD and they would easily have won the ring. The whole FMVP is just another media driven BS to prop Brons legacy up, we've seen how little the results were when he had no AD.

[dcstanley]

Curry is a consummate team player. His style of play is designed to get his teammates easier baskets and make them look good. But his teammates haven't really done all that much away from him aside from KD and even he hasn't won a ring yet apart from Curry despite playing with other future and former MVPs. There is simply no basis to presume that Curry's teammates are better than LeBron's.

LeBron's sixth season? The one where he lost to a team led by Dwight Howard leading a similarly unspectacular cast?

No basis to suggest that Draymond is one of the greatest defensive players of all-time? Or that Iggy is the ultimate role player? Klay's shooting and defense translates on any team, if he was on a bad team he would be a higher volume scorer and if he was on another good team he would be the perfect complement to a superstar. In fact, we already saw how impactful these guys are in 2016. Curry missed most of the first two rounds and the 73-9 Warriors chugged along nicely despite an MVP sized hole in their rotation. The Warriors won their first round series without Curry and were up 2-1 in the second round before he returned. Klay averaged 31 PPG on 65 TS% and Draymond averaged 22 PPG,11 RPG, 7 APG, 2 SPG, and 3 BPG in the second round. They also won easily in the first round of the 2018 playoffs with Curry missing the entire round. Are you seriously claiming there isn't any basis to suggest that they are better than Mo Williams and Delonte West?

Yeah, Lebron utterly dominated that series and his team lost because of poor role player performance. Mo Williams, Lebron's best teammate, averaged 18 PPG on 50 TS% while Orlando's Rashard Lewis averaged 18 PPG on 64 TS%, Hedo Turkologu averaged 17, 6, and 6 on 52 TS%, and Mickael Pietrus averaged 14 PPG on 70 TS%. That's three players that outperformed the Cavs second best player. Not to mention Dwight utterly dominating Cleveland's weak interior comprised of Illgauskas and Varaejo. Lebron wins that series pretty easily if you give him an average playoff performance from Klay, Draymond, Iggy, and 2015-2017 Bogut.

Didn't we just see Draymond a couple seasons ago helpless when left on his own as his team scraped the bottom of the league standings without Curry? Iguodala the team's seasoned vet who couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs before joining the Warriors? Klay whose TS% is 10% lower when Steph isn't on the floor with him? We're going to compare them to guys who have won championships and made All-NBA multiple times leading teams like LeBron's teammates did without LeBron?

Oh but we are slicing and dicing to cherry pick certain situations and not just looking at their overall careers are we? Still doesn't work. We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing minutes of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought? If Draymond, Andre, and Klay were forced to play that way to accommodate LeBron's pursuit of glory, no I don't think you'd get the results you think you would.

We also saw them win critical playoff games without Curry on the floor. There aren't many supporting casts in the league that could win two playoff series in a row while their superstar is rehabbing and working his way back into shape. Iguodala has been one of the most in demand role players throughout his entire career and he's still an impact player despite being several years passed his prime. Hell, he was passed his prime when he was on the 2020 Heat and he was still an important part of their rotation during their finals run. Klay has averaged 26.5 PPG on 62 TS% in his 12 games without Curry. He struggles to maintain his efficiency playing with second units but he's proven that he's more than capable of carrying a bigger load in the playoffs when Steph isn't available. More importantly, Klay, Iggy, and especially Draymond ensure that Steph is always buttressed with an elite defense. We saw last season what happens when you replace those guys with inferior one-way players.

Not cherry-picking at all.. just pointing out that Lebron with Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut instead of the subpar supporting cast he had during his initial Cleveland stint is winning championships. Lebron has never dominated the ball to the degree that Westbrook has and he has already proven that he can win in different systems and with different types of personnel. Lebron's playoff usage rate, for example, has only eclipsed 30% (which is Curry's playoff career average) during the situations that commanded it. When he's on teams devoid of talent, like those early Cavs teams, it's only natural he increases his usage to put his team in the best position to win. Nevertheless, Mo Williams usage rate in that Magic series was the same as Klay's playoff career usage rate. I'm sure you wouldn't say Klay was playing in a way to accommodate Curry's pursuit of glory, would you?

Didn't we just see Draymond a couple seasons ago helpless when left on his own as his team scraped the bottom of the league standings without Curry? Iguodala the team's seasoned vet who couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs before joining the Warriors? Klay whose TS% is 10% lower when Steph isn't on the floor with him? We're going to compare them to guys who have won championships and made All-NBA multiple times leading teams like LeBron's teammates did without LeBron?

Oh but we are slicing and dicing to cherry pick certain situations and not just looking at their overall careers are we? Still doesn't work. We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing minutes of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought? If Draymond, Andre, and Klay were forced to play that way to accommodate LeBron's pursuit of glory, no I don't think you'd get the results you think you would.

That Magic team had a defensive rating of 101.9 that was first in the league. The 2009 Cavs had a 110.6 ORTG against that Magic team. That same Magic team that had a RS rDRTG of -6.4 (top 20 defense ever). Lebron had an offensive rating of 118. The Cavs issue was not offense. But furthermore, Steph has never played against a defense that was rated out that well in the PS defensively.

As a matter of fact, that 09 Cavs team had a PS rORTG of 8.3 which is better than PS offense Steph has played on outside of the 2017 team.

We saw the Warriors take down the Thunder in 2016 who eliminated the 67-win Spurs. Are you saying that Magic team was better?

We also saw the Warriors beat LeBron in the 2015 finals. Are we going to hear the same old excuses about that Cavs team?

The series where the Cavs were down two starters? And yet, they were an overtime away from a 3-0 lead despite missing their second and third most important players.

If injuries are excuses, what excuses do you have for the Warriors and their loss to the Raptors in 2019? Surely, they should have been able to win that series. After all, Klay was active for 5 of those games while Kyrie was active for one game and Love never even suited up.

[WarriorGM]

No basis to suggest that Draymond is one of the greatest defensive players of all-time? Or that Iggy is the ultimate role player? Klay's shooting and defense translates on any team, if he was on a bad team he would be a higher volume scorer and if he was on another good team he would be the perfect complement to a superstar. In fact, we already saw how impactful these guys are in 2016. Curry missed most of the first two rounds and the 73-9 Warriors chugged along nicely despite an MVP sized hole in their rotation. The Warriors won their first round series without Curry and were up 2-1 in the second round before he returned. Klay averaged 31 PPG on 65 TS% and Draymond averaged 22 PPG,11 RPG, 7 APG, 2 SPG, and 3 BPG in the second round. They also won easily in the first round of the 2018 playoffs with Curry missing the entire round. Are you seriously claiming there isn't any basis to suggest that they are better than Mo Williams and Delonte West?

Yeah, Lebron utterly dominated that series and his team lost because of poor role player performance. Mo Williams, Lebron's best teammate, averaged 18 PPG on 50 TS% while Orlando's Rashard Lewis averaged 18 PPG on 64 TS%, Hedo Turkologu averaged 17, 6, and 6 on 52 TS%, and Mickael Pietrus averaged 14 PPG on 70 TS%. That's three players that outperformed the Cavs second best player. Not to mention Dwight utterly dominating Cleveland's weak interior comprised of Illgauskas and Varaejo. Lebron wins that series pretty easily if you give him an average playoff performance from Klay, Draymond, Iggy, and 2015-2017 Bogut.

Didn't we just see Draymond a couple seasons ago helpless when left on his own as his team scraped the bottom of the league standings without Curry? Iguodala the team's seasoned vet who couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs before joining the Warriors? Klay whose TS% is 10% lower when Steph isn't on the floor with him? We're going to compare them to guys who have won championships and made All-NBA multiple times leading teams like LeBron's teammates did without LeBron?

Oh but we are slicing and dicing to cherry pick certain situations and not just looking at their overall careers are we? Still doesn't work. We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing minutes of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought? If Draymond, Andre, and Klay were forced to play that way to accommodate LeBron's pursuit of glory, no I don't think you'd get the results you think you would.

We also saw them win critical playoff games without Curry on the floor. There aren't many supporting casts in the league that could win two playoff series in a row while their superstar is rehabbing and working his way back into shape. Iguodala has been one of the most in demand role players throughout his entire career and he's still an impact player despite being several years passed his prime. Hell, he was passed his prime when he was on the 2020 Heat and he was still an important part of their rotation during their finals run. Klay has averaged 26.5 PPG on 62 TS% in his 12 games without Curry. He struggles to maintain his efficiency playing with second units but he's proven that he's more than capable of carrying a bigger load in the playoffs when Steph isn't available. More importantly, Klay, Iggy, and especially Draymond ensure that Steph is always buttressed with an elite defense. We saw last season what happens when you replace those guys with inferior one-way players.

Not cherry-picking at all.. just pointing out that Lebron with Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut instead of the subpar supporting cast he had during his initial Cleveland stint is winning championships. Lebron has never dominated the ball to the degree that Westbrook has and he has already proven that he can win in different systems and with different types of personnel. Lebron's playoff usage rate, for example, has only eclipsed 30% (which is Curry's playoff career average) during the situations that commanded it. When he's on teams devoid of talent, like those early Cavs teams, it's only natural he increases his usage to put his team in the best position to win. Nevertheless, Mo Williams usage rate in that Magic series was the same as Klay's playoff career usage rate. I'm sure you wouldn't say Klay was playing in a way to accommodate Curry's pursuit of glory, would you?

That Magic team had a defensive rating of 101.9 that was first in the league. The 2009 Cavs had a 110.6 ORTG against that Magic team. That same Magic team that had a RS rDRTG of -6.4 (top 20 defense ever). Lebron had an offensive rating of 118. The Cavs issue was not offense. But furthermore, Steph has never played against a defense that was rated out that well in the PS defensively.

As a matter of fact, that 09 Cavs team had a PS rORTG of 8.3 which is better than PS offense Steph has played on outside of the 2017 team.

We saw the Warriors take down the Thunder in 2016 who eliminated the 67-win Spurs. Are you saying that Magic team was better?

We also saw the Warriors beat LeBron in the 2015 finals. Are we going to hear the same old excuses about that Cavs team?

The series where the Cavs were down two starters? And yet, they were an overtime away from a 3-0 lead despite missing their second and third most important players.

If injuries are excuses, what excuses do you have for the Warriors and their loss to the Raptors in 2019? Surely, they should have been able to win that series. After all, Klay was active for 5 of those games while Kyrie was active for one game and Love never even suited up.

Ah more examples of the stretched logic used to make different situations appear the same when they are fundamentally not.

The Warriors were never in danger of going down 3-0 because that overtime was in the first game not the third. A loss in that first game would have prompted adjustments sooner not later.

Maybe for LeBron fans it is simply in their character to question the victories of others self-conscious as they are that his own achievements stand on sand, but I do not recall having used injuries as an excuse to question the worthiness of the Raptors 2019 win. If I was to compare the situations though Klay becoming injured meant the Warriors were no longer the team that won the Western Conference Finals. On the other hand even with Kyrie out the Cavaliers were still basically the same team that swept the Eastern Conference Finals. So we can either acknowledge that the Cavaliers team that was in the finals deserved to be there or that the Eastern Conference was a joke.

[dcstanley]

Didn't we just see Draymond a couple seasons ago helpless when left on his own as his team scraped the bottom of the league standings without Curry? Iguodala the team's seasoned vet who couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs before joining the Warriors? Klay whose TS% is 10% lower when Steph isn't on the floor with him? We're going to compare them to guys who have won championships and made All-NBA multiple times leading teams like LeBron's teammates did without LeBron?

Oh but we are slicing and dicing to cherry pick certain situations and not just looking at their overall careers are we? Still doesn't work. We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing minutes of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought? If Draymond, Andre, and Klay were forced to play that way to accommodate LeBron's pursuit of glory, no I don't think you'd get the results you think you would.

We also saw them win critical playoff games without Curry on the floor. There aren't many supporting casts in the league that could win two playoff series in a row while their superstar is rehabbing and working his way back into shape. Iguodala has been one of the most in demand role players throughout his entire career and he's still an impact player despite being several years passed his prime. Hell, he was passed his prime when he was on the 2020 Heat and he was still an important part of their rotation during their finals run. Klay has averaged 26.5 PPG on 62 TS% in his 12 games without Curry. He struggles to maintain his efficiency playing with second units but he's proven that he's more than capable of carrying a bigger load in the playoffs when Steph isn't available. More importantly, Klay, Iggy, and especially Draymond ensure that Steph is always buttressed with an elite defense. We saw last season what happens when you replace those guys with inferior one-way players.

Not cherry-picking at all.. just pointing out that Lebron with Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut instead of the subpar supporting cast he had during his initial Cleveland stint is winning championships. Lebron has never dominated the ball to the degree that Westbrook has and he has already proven that he can win in different systems and with different types of personnel. Lebron's playoff usage rate, for example, has only eclipsed 30% (which is Curry's playoff career average) during the situations that commanded it. When he's on teams devoid of talent, like those early Cavs teams, it's only natural he increases his usage to put his team in the best position to win. Nevertheless, Mo Williams usage rate in that Magic series was the same as Klay's playoff career usage rate. I'm sure you wouldn't say Klay was playing in a way to accommodate Curry's pursuit of glory, would you?

We saw the Warriors take down the Thunder in 2016 who eliminated the 67-win Spurs. Are you saying that Magic team was better?

We also saw the Warriors beat LeBron in the 2015 finals. Are we going to hear the same old excuses about that Cavs team?

The series where the Cavs were down two starters? And yet, they were an overtime away from a 3-0 lead despite missing their second and third most important players.

If injuries are excuses, what excuses do you have for the Warriors and their loss to the Raptors in 2019? Surely, they should have been able to win that series. After all, Klay was active for 5 of those games while Kyrie was active for one game and Love never even suited up.

Ah more examples of the stretched logic used to make different situations appear the same when they are fundamentally not.

The Warriors were never in danger of going down 3-0 because that overtime was in the first game not the third. A loss in that first game would have prompted adjustments sooner not later.

Maybe for LeBron fans it is simply in their character to question the victories of others self-conscious as they are that his own achievements stand on sand, but I do not recall having used injuries as an excuse to question the worthiness of the Raptors 2019 win. If I was to compare the situations though Klay becoming injured meant the Warriors were no longer the team that won the Western Conference Finals. On the other hand even with Kyrie out the Cavaliers were still basically the same team that swept the Eastern Conference Finals. So we can either acknowledge that the Cavaliers team that was in the finals deserved to be there or that the Eastern Conference was a joke.

Not at all, I'm merely presenting the facts of the matter. The facts just aren't compatible with your agenda.

Regardless, the Cavs were up 2-1 with a borderline replacement level guard substituting for an all-star. Kyrie played 13 games in the 2015 playoffs before missing 5 of the 6 games of the finals. In 2016, Curry played 11 games in the playoffs before the Warriors reached the finals. Would you say the Western conference was a joke in 2016? Kyrie missed less games in the 2015 Eastern Conference playoffs than Curry missed in the 2016 Western conference playoffs.

The fact that you would even consider the Cavs losing a series without two starters a failure on Lebron indicates that you hold him to an impossible standard. I would venture a guess that is a standard you don't hold any other player to. Curry's loss against the Raptors is rarely mentioned in these types of discussions because reasonable fans don't hold it against him. Lebron haters, however, scrape to the bottom for any reason to challenge his achievements.

If Curry had Lebron's achievements this thread's premise would be null. He isn't considered a top 10 player in NBA history because he hasn't achieved anywhere close to what Lebron has.

[johanliebert]

An 8 page thread over something that won’t happen. Basketball philosophers lol.