If Steph wins MVP, Chip & Finals MVP this year where does he rank ?

[timO]

the reality is no mvp

no chip

0/3 finals mvp

he was already exposed by KD

Interesting take....

How about:
Curry wins one final...loses in the second final but beats Durant's team on the way to that finals.
Durant joins...wins two chips on the best team to ever be assembled but was already a two time finals 73 win team.
Curry has won without Durant.
Durant as never won a finals without Curry.

And in your opinion, you place Durant above Curry?

yes KD i a tier above

[WarriorGM]

Not at all, I'm merely presenting the facts of the matter. The facts just aren't compatible with your agenda.

Regardless, the Cavs were up 2-1 with a borderline replacement level guard substituting for an all-star. Kyrie played 13 games in the 2015 playoffs before missing 5 of the 6 games of the finals. In 2016, Curry played 11 games in the playoffs before the Warriors reached the finals. Would you say the Western conference was a joke in 2016? Kyrie missed less games in the 2015 Eastern Conference playoffs than Curry missed in the 2016 Western conference playoffs.

The fact that you would even consider the Cavs losing a series without two starters a failure on Lebron indicates that you hold him to an impossible standard. I would venture a guess that is a standard you don't hold any other player to. Curry's loss against the Raptors is rarely mentioned in these types of discussions because reasonable fans don't hold it against him. Lebron haters, however, scrape to the bottom for any reason to challenge his achievements.

If Curry had Lebron's achievements this thread's premise would be null. He isn't considered a top 10 player in NBA history because he hasn't achieved anywhere close to what Lebron has.

Boo hoo hoo LeBron wasn't playing with his two all-star teammates. Every time that series is mentioned almost like clockwork one can expect one of his fans to bring it up. But here's a less mentioned fact: Golden State's highest paid and most decorated player played even less minutes than Kyrie did in the finals! Imagine that! How many teams could win a finals without its highest paid player? Can you name one team that did? And on a team that was so inexperienced as it was that no one on the roster had been to a finals before and that was coached by a rookie coach!

Those 2015 Cavaliers had a large experience advantage that they failed to take advantage of. Can you imagine if in 2007 the Spurs couldn't handle the Cavs? If the Cavaliers were a top heavy team that's on them too.

Curry's achievements are actually superior to LeBron's. Curry did it quicker and did it higher in less time in tougher conditions.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Didn't we just see Draymond a couple seasons ago helpless when left on his own as his team scraped the bottom of the league standings without Curry? Iguodala the team's seasoned vet who couldn't get past the first round of the playoffs before joining the Warriors? Klay whose TS% is 10% lower when Steph isn't on the floor with him? We're going to compare them to guys who have won championships and made All-NBA multiple times leading teams like LeBron's teammates did without LeBron?

Oh but we are slicing and dicing to cherry pick certain situations and not just looking at their overall careers are we? Still doesn't work. We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing minutes of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought? If Draymond, Andre, and Klay were forced to play that way to accommodate LeBron's pursuit of glory, no I don't think you'd get the results you think you would.

That Magic team had a defensive rating of 101.9 that was first in the league. The 2009 Cavs had a 110.6 ORTG against that Magic team. That same Magic team that had a RS rDRTG of -6.4 (top 20 defense ever). Lebron had an offensive rating of 118. The Cavs issue was not offense. But furthermore, Steph has never played against a defense that was rated out that well in the PS defensively.

As a matter of fact, that 09 Cavs team had a PS rORTG of 8.3 which is better than PS offense Steph has played on outside of the 2017 team.

We saw the Warriors take down the Thunder in 2016 who eliminated the 67-win Spurs. Are you saying that Magic team was better?

We also saw the Warriors beat LeBron in the 2015 finals. Are we going to hear the same old excuses about that Cavs team?

It would be nice if you didn't claim everything was an excuse and actually focused on what I was responding to. We don't get anywhere when you incredibly defensive, that you don't even know what I am speaking about. Your response makes no sense into context to what I was responding too.

You said "We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing minutes of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought?"

The reality is whatever you think about that those Cavs offense, I clearly presented evidence the Cavs offense was excellent against an all-time level defense like the 09 Magic. You made a statement, and I simply provided numbers of how it is ironic, because that PS offense is better than anything Steph was ever apart of outside of the 2017 Warriors.

P.S.-The 16 and 17 Cavs had in the PS a rORTG greater than any PS team Steph ever participated on.

[WarriorGM]

That Magic team had a defensive rating of 101.9 that was first in the league. The 2009 Cavs had a 110.6 ORTG against that Magic team. That same Magic team that had a RS rDRTG of -6.4 (top 20 defense ever). Lebron had an offensive rating of 118. The Cavs issue was not offense. But furthermore, Steph has never played against a defense that was rated out that well in the PS defensively.

As a matter of fact, that 09 Cavs team had a PS rORTG of 8.3 which is better than PS offense Steph has played on outside of the 2017 team.

We saw the Warriors take down the Thunder in 2016 who eliminated the 67-win Spurs. Are you saying that Magic team was better?

We also saw the Warriors beat LeBron in the 2015 finals. Are we going to hear the same old excuses about that Cavs team?

It would be nice if you didn't claim everything was an excuse and actually focused on what I was responding to. We don't get anywhere when you incredibly defensive, that you don't even know what I am speaking about. Your response makes no sense into context to what I was responding too.

You said "We saw in 2017 when Russell Westbrook dominated the ball like no other that accumulating stats at the expense of involving teammates is not winning basketball. We saw it earlier in 2009 when the Cavs were sent home. Having teammates stand around like statues until suddenly being chosen to make a play in the closing minutes of a possession is inferior to having teammates constantly involved in the action? Who would have thought?"

The reality is whatever you think about that those Cavs offense, I clearly presented evidence the Cavs offense was excellent against an all-time level defense like the 09 Magic. You made a statement, and I simply provided numbers of how it is ironic, because that PS offense is better than anything Steph was ever apart of outside of the 2017 Warriors.

P.S.-The 16 and 17 Cavs had in the PS a rORTG greater than any PS team Steph ever participated on.

What is the point of relative offensive rating in this discussion? A WWI tank probably had a higher relative offensive rating than some of the cavalries of the time but even a prior generation tank of today easily has far more firepower. Relative doesn't matter absolute does.

That you are referencing the 2009 Cavs and 2017 Cavs which were both beaten by the Magic and Warriors respectively undermines your point if I even understand what your point is. Their offense could be excellent? I guess that's why they reached the conference finals and finals but they didn't go any further. That 2017 team was also inflating its numbers in the Eastern Conference.

[The4thHorseman]

Not at all, I'm merely presenting the facts of the matter. The facts just aren't compatible with your agenda.

Regardless, the Cavs were up 2-1 with a borderline replacement level guard substituting for an all-star. Kyrie played 13 games in the 2015 playoffs before missing 5 of the 6 games of the finals. In 2016, Curry played 11 games in the playoffs before the Warriors reached the finals. Would you say the Western conference was a joke in 2016? Kyrie missed less games in the 2015 Eastern Conference playoffs than Curry missed in the 2016 Western conference playoffs.

The fact that you would even consider the Cavs losing a series without two starters a failure on Lebron indicates that you hold him to an impossible standard. I would venture a guess that is a standard you don't hold any other player to. Curry's loss against the Raptors is rarely mentioned in these types of discussions because reasonable fans don't hold it against him. Lebron haters, however, scrape to the bottom for any reason to challenge his achievements.

If Curry had Lebron's achievements this thread's premise would be null. He isn't considered a top 10 player in NBA history because he hasn't achieved anywhere close to what Lebron has.

Boo hoo hoo LeBron wasn't playing with his two all-star teammates. Every time that series is mentioned almost like clockwork one can expect one of his fans to bring it up. But here's a less mentioned fact: Golden State's highest paid and most decorated player played even less minutes than Kyrie did in the finals! Imagine that! How many teams could win a finals without its highest paid player? Can you name one team that did? And on a team that was so inexperienced as it was that no one on the roster had been to a finals before and that was coached by a rookie coach!

Those 2015 Cavaliers had a large experience advantage that they failed to take advantage of. Can you imagine if in 2007 the Spurs couldn't handle the Cavs? If the Cavaliers were a top heavy team that's on them too.

Curry's achievements are actually superior to LeBron's. Curry did it quicker and did it higher in less time in tougher conditions.

LeBron and James Jones were the only 2 Cavs that had Finals experience in 2015. Head Coach David Blatt had never coached in the NBA before. It was the first time in Finals history that featured 2 rookie head coaches.

[Edrees]

He'll cement himself as Top 12. Not sure where he'd go in there. I'd have to think about it.

[dcstanley]

Not at all, I'm merely presenting the facts of the matter. The facts just aren't compatible with your agenda.

Regardless, the Cavs were up 2-1 with a borderline replacement level guard substituting for an all-star. Kyrie played 13 games in the 2015 playoffs before missing 5 of the 6 games of the finals. In 2016, Curry played 11 games in the playoffs before the Warriors reached the finals. Would you say the Western conference was a joke in 2016? Kyrie missed less games in the 2015 Eastern Conference playoffs than Curry missed in the 2016 Western conference playoffs.

The fact that you would even consider the Cavs losing a series without two starters a failure on Lebron indicates that you hold him to an impossible standard. I would venture a guess that is a standard you don't hold any other player to. Curry's loss against the Raptors is rarely mentioned in these types of discussions because reasonable fans don't hold it against him. Lebron haters, however, scrape to the bottom for any reason to challenge his achievements.

If Curry had Lebron's achievements this thread's premise would be null. He isn't considered a top 10 player in NBA history because he hasn't achieved anywhere close to what Lebron has.

Boo hoo hoo LeBron wasn't playing with his two all-star teammates. Every time that series is mentioned almost like clockwork one can expect one of his fans to bring it up. But here's a less mentioned fact: Golden State's highest paid and most decorated player played even less minutes than Kyrie did in the finals! Imagine that! How many teams could win a finals without its highest paid player? Can you name one team that did? And on a team that was so inexperienced as it was that no one on the roster had been to a finals before and that was coached by a rookie coach!

Those 2015 Cavaliers had a large experience advantage that they failed to take advantage of. Can you imagine if in 2007 the Spurs couldn't handle the Cavs? If the Cavaliers were a top heavy team that's on them too.

Curry's achievements are actually superior to LeBron's. Curry did it quicker and did it higher in less time in tougher conditions.

This is pure delusion.

I think you know that there aren't many teams (if at all) that are winning playoff series with replacement level players substituting for second and third most important players. Jordan isn't winning in 1993 without Pippen and Grant, he certainly isn't winning in 1996 without Pippen and Rodman. Curry isn't winning in 2017 if KD and Klay are out as he didn't win in 2019 when they were out (Toronto was coached by a rookie head coach, as well). Duncan's Spurs lost in 5 games in the first round of the 2009 playoffs largely due to the fact that Manu was out for the season. Injuries are part of the game but they heavily influence outcomes.. Denying that is arguing for the sake of arguing.

[WarriorGM]

Not at all, I'm merely presenting the facts of the matter. The facts just aren't compatible with your agenda.

Regardless, the Cavs were up 2-1 with a borderline replacement level guard substituting for an all-star. Kyrie played 13 games in the 2015 playoffs before missing 5 of the 6 games of the finals. In 2016, Curry played 11 games in the playoffs before the Warriors reached the finals. Would you say the Western conference was a joke in 2016? Kyrie missed less games in the 2015 Eastern Conference playoffs than Curry missed in the 2016 Western conference playoffs.

The fact that you would even consider the Cavs losing a series without two starters a failure on Lebron indicates that you hold him to an impossible standard. I would venture a guess that is a standard you don't hold any other player to. Curry's loss against the Raptors is rarely mentioned in these types of discussions because reasonable fans don't hold it against him. Lebron haters, however, scrape to the bottom for any reason to challenge his achievements.

If Curry had Lebron's achievements this thread's premise would be null. He isn't considered a top 10 player in NBA history because he hasn't achieved anywhere close to what Lebron has.

Boo hoo hoo LeBron wasn't playing with his two all-star teammates. Every time that series is mentioned almost like clockwork one can expect one of his fans to bring it up. But here's a less mentioned fact: Golden State's highest paid and most decorated player played even less minutes than Kyrie did in the finals! Imagine that! How many teams could win a finals without its highest paid player? Can you name one team that did? And on a team that was so inexperienced as it was that no one on the roster had been to a finals before and that was coached by a rookie coach!

Those 2015 Cavaliers had a large experience advantage that they failed to take advantage of. Can you imagine if in 2007 the Spurs couldn't handle the Cavs? If the Cavaliers were a top heavy team that's on them too.

Curry's achievements are actually superior to LeBron's. Curry did it quicker and did it higher in less time in tougher conditions.

This is pure delusion.

I think you know that there aren't many teams (if at all) that are winning playoff series with replacement level players substituting for second and third most important players. Jordan isn't winning in 1993 without Pippen and Grant, he certainly isn't winning in 1996 without Pippen and Rodman. Curry isn't winning in 2017 if KD and Klay are out as he didn't win in 2019 when they were out (Toronto was coached by a rookie head coach, as well). Duncan's Spurs lost in 5 games in the first round of the 2009 playoffs largely due to the fact that Manu was out for the season. Injuries are part of the game but they heavily influence outcomes.. Denying that is arguing for the sake of arguing.

The part you bolded and you are presumably responding to has nothing to do with the majority of your post. To the your claim that it is delusional please provide your reasoning.

As for the rest the difference wasn't two star players it was one. In 2007 if Manu wasn't available against the inexperienced Cavaliers would the Cavaliers be automatically a shoe-in or would there still be some expectation that Duncan and the Spurs could pull it out?

Also while injuries are a factor so is the strength of competition in conferences. The Cavaliers easily made it into the finals despite not playing two stars. Get a bye to the finals and be at a disadvantage there or start with all your guys but go through 4 rounds? Which would be tougher?

[Raonak]

Honestly, Steph may go down as a goat.

He's the most skillful player we've seen. He transforms the game

[dickfox]

1. Steph
2. Dell
3. Seth

Although, Seth is moving into number 2.5 territory right now...

[DonaldSanders]

Who do you think he pushes out of the Top 10?

1 MJ
2 Lebron
3 Kareem
4 Russell
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Duncan
8 Shaq
9 Wilt
10 Hakeem
11 KD
12 Kobe
13 Steph

Do you really see Curry pushing Kobe and KD out?

Curry is already above both. Let me know when Durant wins a chip without Curry. Kobe has Steph on total career accomplishments, but Steph's peak is clearly higher & he does more for his teammates. Over time when Steph wins 2 more chips this will be even more obvious.

[2020]

1 MJ
2 Lebron
3 Kareem
4 Russell
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Duncan
8 Shaq
9 Wilt
10 Hakeem
11 KD
12 Kobe
13 Steph

Do you really see Curry pushing Kobe and KD out?

Curry is already above both. Let me know when Durant wins a chip without Curry. Kobe has Steph on total career accomplishments, but Steph's peak is clearly higher & he does more for his teammates. Over time when Steph wins 2 more chips this will be even more obvious.

If that's your core argument, then A VERY VALID counter argument would be - let me know when Curry wins one without Andre Iguadala (who was the FINALS MVP and or KD).

We are not talking about who has the most rings, we are talking about all-time greatest.

Curry's all time great status was clearly lacking in every finals that he has played in WITHOUT KD (2015 and 2016)

[Commodor]

I’m sorry KD gotta win one himself to be considered top 10.

[Commodor]

Do you really see Curry pushing Kobe and KD out?

Curry is already above both. Let me know when Durant wins a chip without Curry. Kobe has Steph on total career accomplishments, but Steph's peak is clearly higher & he does more for his teammates. Over time when Steph wins 2 more chips this will be even more obvious.

If that's your core argument, then A VERY VALID counter argument would be - let me know when Curry wins one without Andre Iguadala (who was the FINALS MVP and or KD).

We are not talking about who has the most rings, we are talking about all-time greatest.

Curry's all time great status was clearly lacking in every finals that he has played in WITHOUT KD (2015 and 2016)

Lol so if Curry’s credentials are up for question because Iguodala then how is KD’s not for having Iguodala & Curry? Do you even read what you are posting?

If most rings was the only criteria that mattered then Bill Russell is #1 with 11, followed by Sam Jones with 10, then Tom Heinsohn, John Havlicek, K.C Jones, Satch Sanders with 8 and so on. Clearly this thread is not “just about rings”.

There are valid arguments for why Curry is not on the list but you clearly don’t have any.