Is Jokic the most complete offensive player ever?

[Peregrine01]

His athletic limitations still puts a ceiling on his ability to score off the bounce, which is something I'm surprised people are ignoring. I don't think it's "ridiculous" to ask at all, but that's something that still prevents him from ever reaching the volume scoring capability of the Jordan/Lebron tier. "Dirk with much better passing" is still a bit too hyperbolic for me (prime Dirk was a much better athlete), but if Jokic continues to be a 38-39% 3PT shooter, then maybe this is just who he is now?

Jokic is slow end to end but he can be very quick in spots. He routinely beats guys in the mid post and once he gets those hips into you, it's basically over. Moreover, he doesn't need to take guys off the bounce when he can just power his way to the rim like Shaq does.

Of course, he doesn't have the shooting of Dirk...no big has but if he does high-30s, that'd be elite as a floor stretching big.

[CobraCommander]

His athletic limitations still puts a ceiling on his ability to score off the bounce, which is something I'm surprised people are ignoring. I don't think it's "ridiculous" to ask at all, but that's something that still prevents him from ever reaching the volume scoring capability of the Jordan/Lebron tier. "Dirk with much better passing" is still a bit too hyperbolic for me (prime Dirk was a much better athlete), but if Jokic continues to be a 38-39% 3PT shooter, then maybe this is just who he is now?

But he does get his shot off OFF the dribble. And it goes in the bucket....so Who cares how he looks doing it?

The rim is only 10 ‘ and he puts the ball in the hole from every spot on the floor—-

If Jokic could run the 40 in 4 seconds and had a 60” vert would he be better....maybe?

[Ron Swanson]

His athletic limitations still puts a ceiling on his ability to score off the bounce, which is something I'm surprised people are ignoring. I don't think it's "ridiculous" to ask at all, but that's something that still prevents him from ever reaching the volume scoring capability of the Jordan/Lebron tier. "Dirk with much better passing" is still a bit too hyperbolic for me (prime Dirk was a much better athlete), but if Jokic continues to be a 38-39% 3PT shooter, then maybe this is just who he is now?

Jokic is slow end to end but he can be very quick in spots. He routinely beats guys in the mid post and once he gets those hips into you, it's basically over. Moreover, he doesn't need to take guys off the bounce when he can just power his way to the rim like Shaq does.

Of course, he doesn't have the shooting of Dirk...no big has but if he does high-30s, that'd be elite as a floor stretching big.

But again, stuff like this is a bit hyperbolic. No, he can't bully his way to the rim like Shaq could. Shaq was one of the 3 strongest players in the history of basketball and a once-in-a-generation type athlete. What Jokic is great at is leveraging his size and maximizing what little vertical athleticism he has, and he obviously has elite footwork in the post. He's not Shaq or Giannis though, he just can't finish through traffic at that kind of level, and he's basically a zero when it comes to being a rim-running/lob threat.

[HoopsterJones]

Jokic is certainly putting up some staggering numbers. Even better than last season when he was the MVP. He’s definitely in the conversation as one of the most skilled offensive Big Man to ever play in the NBA.

[Liam_Gallagher]

No. Michael Jordan was.

[cupcakesnake]

It's easy to think of players who are better than Jokic in individual categories, but it is definitely a challenge to find someone who ticks all the boxes like he does. The most versatile offensive players ever are Lebron James and Larry Bird, but Lebron was a poor shooter for most of his career, and Bird did not pressure the rim like Jokic can, while Joker matches these guys in most categories (obviously Lebron is a much better defender).

I'm fairly positive that Jokic ticks the most boxes and has the least glaring holes. He's not on a level athletically with lots of players, but I can't name an offensive category of the game where this affects him. Like he's slow and therefore there's some stuff he can't do in transition, but he's clearly a player who generates transition points with his passing (and he's not that bad end to end filling in lanes).

[Petergrifindor]

Is Jordan.

[Peregrine01]

His athletic limitations still puts a ceiling on his ability to score off the bounce, which is something I'm surprised people are ignoring. I don't think it's "ridiculous" to ask at all, but that's something that still prevents him from ever reaching the volume scoring capability of the Jordan/Lebron tier. "Dirk with much better passing" is still a bit too hyperbolic for me (prime Dirk was a much better athlete), but if Jokic continues to be a 38-39% 3PT shooter, then maybe this is just who he is now?

Jokic is slow end to end but he can be very quick in spots. He routinely beats guys in the mid post and once he gets those hips into you, it's basically over. Moreover, he doesn't need to take guys off the bounce when he can just power his way to the rim like Shaq does.

Of course, he doesn't have the shooting of Dirk...no big has but if he does high-30s, that'd be elite as a floor stretching big.

But again, stuff like this is a bit hyperbolic. No, he can't bully his way to the rim like Shaq could. Shaq was one of the 3 strongest players in the history of basketball and a once-in-a-generation type athlete. What Jokic is great at is leveraging his size and maximizing what little vertical athleticism he has, and he obviously has elite footwork in the post. He's not Shaq or Giannis though, he just can't finish through traffic at that kind of level, and he's basically a zero when it comes to being a rim-running/lob threat.

It really isn't.

Jokic over the last 3 seasons has been in the 72-76% FG% range from 0-3 feet and an incredible 57-60% from 3-10 feet. Shaq was 73-79% from 0-3 feet and 40-45% from 3-10 feet in his prime. Giannis is 76-84% from 0-3 feet but just 33-40% from 3-10 over the last 3 seasons. I suspect that Jokic's percentages from 0-3 feet are also depressed a bit because of how often he tries to tip the ball in on the offensive glass.

[sisibilio]

Jordan could pass if he wanted to. Shooting the 3 he could do it if he was born a little later
Bird had an all around game.

jordan could pass but he was nowhere near the playmaker Jokic is. Bird is a better comparison.

[Warriorfan]

Arvydas Sabonis.

Great passer, great on the high or low post, great shooter, he had it all.

Good choice
NBA never got young Sabonis who 7'3 with the athleticism of David Robinson

[vagelis]

Jokic over Jordan, over Durant and over all the great players who have played the game?
These opinions are strange for me

[Ron Swanson]

Jokic is slow end to end but he can be very quick in spots. He routinely beats guys in the mid post and once he gets those hips into you, it's basically over. Moreover, he doesn't need to take guys off the bounce when he can just power his way to the rim like Shaq does.

Of course, he doesn't have the shooting of Dirk...no big has but if he does high-30s, that'd be elite as a floor stretching big.

But again, stuff like this is a bit hyperbolic. No, he can't bully his way to the rim like Shaq could. Shaq was one of the 3 strongest players in the history of basketball and a once-in-a-generation type athlete. What Jokic is great at is leveraging his size and maximizing what little vertical athleticism he has, and he obviously has elite footwork in the post. He's not Shaq or Giannis though, he just can't finish through traffic at that kind of level, and he's basically a zero when it comes to being a rim-running/lob threat.

It really isn't.

Jokic over the last 3 seasons has been in the 72-76% FG% range from 0-3 feet and an incredible 57-60% from 3-10 feet. Shaq was 73-79% from 0-3 feet and 40-45% from 3-10 feet in his prime. Giannis is 76-84% from 0-3 feet but just 33-40% from 3-10 over the last 3 seasons. I suspect that Jokic's percentages from 0-3 feet are also depressed a bit because of how often he tries to tip the ball in on the offensive glass.

Yes, it is. Volume my man. Volume

Giannis 0-3 feet last season: 83.7% on 45% of his FGA's
Jokic 0-3 feet last season: 75% on 24% of his FGA's

[Peregrine01]

But again, stuff like this is a bit hyperbolic. No, he can't bully his way to the rim like Shaq could. Shaq was one of the 3 strongest players in the history of basketball and a once-in-a-generation type athlete. What Jokic is great at is leveraging his size and maximizing what little vertical athleticism he has, and he obviously has elite footwork in the post. He's not Shaq or Giannis though, he just can't finish through traffic at that kind of level, and he's basically a zero when it comes to being a rim-running/lob threat.

It really isn't.

Jokic over the last 3 seasons has been in the 72-76% FG% range from 0-3 feet and an incredible 57-60% from 3-10 feet. Shaq was 73-79% from 0-3 feet and 40-45% from 3-10 feet in his prime. Giannis is 76-84% from 0-3 feet but just 33-40% from 3-10 over the last 3 seasons. I suspect that Jokic's percentages from 0-3 feet are also depressed a bit because of how often he tries to tip the ball in on the offensive glass.

Yes, it is. Volume my man. Volume

Giannis 0-3 feet last season: 83.7% on 45% of his FGA's
Jokic 0-3 feet last season: 75% on 24% of his FGA's

A lot of Giannis's 0-3 feet volume is off transition buckets, so it's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison. If we're talking about finishing in traffic, Jokic has got to be among the best in the league.

[cupcakesnake]

Arvydas Sabonis.

Great passer, great on the high or low post, great shooter, he had it all.

Good choice
NBA never got young Sabonis who 7'3 with the athleticism of David Robinson

I feel like I've watched all the accessible film there is on pre-injury Sabonis and I think some of his game is overstated due to the mystique. He was definitely a monster athlete. He was absurdly fast for a man that large, and monstrously strong. Most of us have seen his matchup with David Robinson... Sabonis made Robinson look like a skinny little power forward.

But the skillset wasn't quite what people make it out to be. I've heard people call him a 7'3 Larry Bird with hops and that's not true. He was definitely an aggressive and creative passer, but he forced the issue so much that he was a turnover machine in every game I've watched. Threw nice passes but wasn't crazy effective at it (kind of reminds me of how Towns is playing right now, whipping the ball around the court but getting more turnover than assists). All assist to turnover number on young Arvydas, are pretty bad (negative for the international stats we have available. Even in his NBA career he turned it over almost as much as he dimed guys up. The highlights look better than the game tape for this one. He was equally erratic as a jump shooter from what I've seen. He had good but not great touch.

He was a never-before-seen kind of player in his day, but after watching what there is to watch, I no longer thing of Arvydas Sabonis as the mythical beast. He would have been a monster in the NBA, but I don't think we'd be talking about him as one of the most complete offensive players. He reminded me more of Wilt than Jokic or Bill Walton or Dirk or Larry Bird.

[K3nny Pow3rs]

Bird mastered every move in the book, and is more coordinated than Jokic, and made it look a lot easier than Jokic.
Bird is the greatest passer I've ever seen, and the most entertaining post-up player.

[DCasey91]

7”1” Dirk + Bird so yes yes he is. Offense isn’t about scoring, nor it’s about playmaking it’s about the whole thing.

Won’t be long before the consensus is he joins the Kareem/Wilt/Shaq trio of the greatest offensive center of all time.

Loved Dirk and watched a heap (mate at high school was his biggest fan, me young Wade at the Heat).

Dirk is top 20 all time but honestly he wasn’t doing what Jokic is right now.

Give respect this is one of the best carry jobs this century.

Him
Barton +
Gordon neutral
Rookie has been great

That’s it the rest is lower than average or downright G League bad.

3rd in the West, 2nd in defense. KD or Jokic can raffle this years MVP imho.

[DCasey91]

Jokic over Jordan, over Durant and over all the great players who have played the game?
These opinions are strange for me

Read the OP thread it’s about complete.

KD/MJ can’t playmake like Jokic can. MJ was never a great 3ball shooter (wouldn’t be if he honed in on it but that’s not the point). They have volume on scoring but even then Jokic has risen in the playoffs.

[Pharmcat]

Carmelo says hi

[audiosway]

Jordan could pass if he wanted to. Shooting the 3 he could do it if he was born a little later
Bird had an all around game.

Bird, IMO, might be the best contender. But Bird didn't have the isolation scoring ability that Jokic has. When Denver has nothing going for them they just throw it down to Jokic who batters his way to the rim like Shaq.

I agree that Bird was the most complete offensive player ever. However, that bolded statement tells me that you never watched Bird. Bird was completely unstoppable. He would get so bored that he looked for ways to challenge himself offensively. He would ask ball boys what the team scoring record in that building was, He would play shooting only left handed, etc. Bird invented the 50/40/90 club, was an elite ball handler, and one of the best passers the game has ever seen. Not to mention he was a stud defender.

[DCasey91]

Carmelo says hi

What is playmaking to Carmelo? Was he ever an elite offensive weapon relative to his era.

I mean Point GOD kills Carmelo there and then.