Is Jokic the most complete offensive player ever?

[Strepbacter]

Jokic over Jordan, over Durant and over all the great players who have played the game?
These opinions are strange for me

Read the OP thread it’s about complete.

KD/MJ can’t playmake like Jokic can. MJ was never a great 3ball shooter (wouldn’t be if he honed in on it but that’s not the point). They have volume on scoring but even then Jokic has risen in the playoffs.

And Jokic can't score like those guys. Nor does he have the off the dribble game of a Jordan. And he's nowhere near the ball-handler that that somebody like Jordan was.

Jordan was one of the best playmakers of all time, but y'all think playmaking=APG.

Jordan was at least as "complete" as Jokeic

[Duke4life831]

Carmelo says hi

And the conversation closes the door on Carmelo's face. Sorry but Melo doesnt belong in this discussion.

[Duke4life831]

He is no doubt the most complete offensive big ever. I dont see any debate with that.

I think it probably comes down between Jordan, Bird and Jokic. I can see the argument for any of those 3. Anyone else I think there are just too big of holes to point out. Those 3 pretty much just didnt check every box, they were/are pretty much elite in every aspect of the game on the offensive side.

[DCasey91]

Jokic over Jordan, over Durant and over all the great players who have played the game?
These opinions are strange for me

Read the OP thread it’s about complete.

KD/MJ can’t playmake like Jokic can. MJ was never a great 3ball shooter (wouldn’t be if he honed in on it but that’s not the point). They have volume on scoring but even then Jokic has risen in the playoffs.

And Jokic can't score like those guys. Nor does he have the off the dribble game of a Jordan. And he's nowhere near the ball-handler that that somebody like Jordan was.

Jordan was one of the best playmakers of all time, but y'all think playmaking=APG.

Jordan was at least as "complete" as Jokeic

Bolded part is wrong, 96-98 Jordan was so so by his own great standards. Heck even his efficiency took a dip. But that’s fine at such a high volume load.

But everything else I agree with, I did mention volume btw.

[picc]

He is no doubt the most complete offensive big ever. I dont see any debate with that.

I think it probably comes down between Jordan, Bird and Jokic. I can see the argument for any of those 3. Anyone else I think there are just too big of holes to point out. Those 3 pretty much just didnt check every box, they were/are pretty much elite in every aspect of the game on the offensive side.

As much as I hate Lebron, at a certain point even his three point shot became above average. I dont know what other weakness you could spell for him, even moreso than Jordan.

[Strepbacter]

He is no doubt the most complete offensive big ever. I dont see any debate with that.

I think it probably comes down between Jordan, Bird and Jokic. I can see the argument for any of those 3. Anyone else I think there are just too big of holes to point out. Those 3 pretty much just didnt check every box, they were/are pretty much elite in every aspect of the game on the offensive side.

Bird sucked at getting to the line and drawing fouls. He also had a weak handle and weak off the dribble game with some severe athletic limitations. Somebody like Bryant was at least as complete. It's ludicrous that he hasn't even been mentioned.

[picc]

He is no doubt the most complete offensive big ever. I dont see any debate with that.

I think it probably comes down between Jordan, Bird and Jokic. I can see the argument for any of those 3. Anyone else I think there are just too big of holes to point out. Those 3 pretty much just didnt check every box, they were/are pretty much elite in every aspect of the game on the offensive side.

Bird sucked at getting to the line and drawing fouls. He also had a weak handle and weak off the dribble game with some severe athletic limitations. Somebody like Bryant was at least as complete. It's ludicrous that he hasn't even been mentioned.

Actually a good point. Kobe has zero offensive weaknesses.

[FreeThrowLine]

Some of these arguments against MJ are weird.

Not the playmaker that Jokic is?

1. You need to understand how the triangle offense changed the type of touches Jordan got

2. You need to have watched those games in full, not just highlights, to see the number of times teammates (especially the scrub bigs he played alongside) would blow good passes

3. Playmaking is more than just total assists

When we’re talking most complete offensive player, to me you start looking at details because lots of guys could score.

So let’s put aside the scoring averages and consistency over the years, because MJ has him beat there and played in eras that the 3 ball wasn’t viewed anywhere near what it is today.

Footwork
Pump fakes/ball fakes
Ability to adjust on the move and mid-air (shots & passes)
Shot repertoire
Ability to slice through a defense
Decision making from a double team
Finishing over bigger defenders
Speed/quickness
Creativity

That’s all MJ, so are we giving to Jokic for his 2% higher career 3 point %? Which might end up lower

Post moves and ability to work with back to basket or face up, the creativity & speed favours MJ, Jokic’s advantage is only size

I also don’t think people give MJ anywhere near the credit he deserves for his passing ability, the man was a Wizard (pun intended)

Watch on YouTube

;t=211s

Watch on YouTube

[Mickey8]

I am so mad at Jokic for his two seasons after the rookie season, I was writing here at that time, that he could score 20 ppg in his sleep then, but his attitude was so messed up, he would have months when he refuses to score the basketball , those two seasons he would have averaged 20+ ppg easily if he wanted to.

[picc]

We should eatablish that complete does not equate to better too. You can certainly be more complete or well rounded at something while being inferior overall.

[Duke4life831]

He is no doubt the most complete offensive big ever. I dont see any debate with that.

I think it probably comes down between Jordan, Bird and Jokic. I can see the argument for any of those 3. Anyone else I think there are just too big of holes to point out. Those 3 pretty much just didnt check every box, they were/are pretty much elite in every aspect of the game on the offensive side.

As much as I hate Lebron, at a certain point even his three point shot became above average. I dont know what other weakness you could spell for him, even moreso than Jordan.

Its not just the 3pt shot though. Jordan's mid range game was elite. LeBron is a career 37% shooter from 10-16ft. He is a career 38% shooter from 16ft-3pt line. Jordan was elite in those areas.

Im not saying LeBron isn't a great all around offensive player. But ya I just dont think he checks as many boxes in the elite category as those 3 guys I mentioned is all.

[J_T]

I don't think so. Here is a question you should ask yourself. Without knowing anything about the opposing team, who do you want to have out there in the last 15 seconds? You have to score 2 points and they will not be making fouls, all players are their peak versions.

Without knowing anything about the opponent I would not be picking Jokic. I love the guy but I think at least partially he thrives because great defensive C's are out of the league. If the opposing team has a great defensive C, you can't go with Jokic, you have better options.

If the strongest opposing player is Trae Young instead... hm, I STILL wouldn't pick Jokic, I'd go for Shaq.

[picc]

He is no doubt the most complete offensive big ever. I dont see any debate with that.

I think it probably comes down between Jordan, Bird and Jokic. I can see the argument for any of those 3. Anyone else I think there are just too big of holes to point out. Those 3 pretty much just didnt check every box, they were/are pretty much elite in every aspect of the game on the offensive side.

As much as I hate Lebron, at a certain point even his three point shot became above average. I dont know what other weakness you could spell for him, even moreso than Jordan.

Its not just the 3pt shot though. Jordan's mid range game was elite. LeBron is a career 37% shooter from 10-16ft. He is a career 38% shooter from 16ft-3pt line. Jordan was elite in those areas.

Im not saying LeBron isn't a great all around offensive player. But ya I just dont think he checks as many boxes in the elite category as those 3 guys I mentioned is all.

No qualms with Jordans midrange being far better. But dont see how that overrides Lebron being a much better outside shooter in terms of “quantity” of relevant advantages.

Btw not saying Lebron is a better offensive player. Dont think he is. But in terms of number of skills, dont see how he’s eclipsed by MJ. I mean, if we’re talking levels of skills and not just existence of them, Lebron is also a better passer by a fair margin.

Both of these guys have things they are better at than the other, obviously.

[Duke4life831]

He is no doubt the most complete offensive big ever. I dont see any debate with that.

I think it probably comes down between Jordan, Bird and Jokic. I can see the argument for any of those 3. Anyone else I think there are just too big of holes to point out. Those 3 pretty much just didnt check every box, they were/are pretty much elite in every aspect of the game on the offensive side.

Bird sucked at getting to the line and drawing fouls. He also had a weak handle and weak off the dribble game with some severe athletic limitations. Somebody like Bryant was at least as complete. It's ludicrous that he hasn't even been mentioned.

If this is the case, I mean if Bird couldn't get to the line and he had no off the dribble game. Why was he such a far more efficient scorer than Kobe? Its not like he was jacking up a ton of catch and shoot 3s back then and that is why he was so efficient.

Bird's career 2pt% is 51%. Kobe surpassed 50% shooting from 2, just 1 time in his career. How was Bird able to do that with his severe athletic limitations and weak off the dribble game?

Im actually a fan of Kobe's, I've become a far bigger fan of his as the years have gone by. But ya me saying he wasn't as good as Bird overall on the offensive end isn't some shot at Kobe. Definitely not one where the response should be some outlandishly bad takes on Bird to try and prop up Kobe.

[zimpy27]

I would say LeBron. But Jordan and Bird need to be mentioned and considered.

A Jokic/LeBron comparison has Jokic with the better shooting touch but LeBron with the better handles and drives. Passing-wise and tempo-wise I'd say it's pretty even though LeBron played his career with much more movement.

[KnIcKsYaNkSmEtS1127]

I think this is such an unfair judgement with the current 3 point bombs away game the NBA has become. If KG played today he would be hitting 3s too. He could pass, rebound, shoot, post up, etc. Tim Duncan never gets any love but he was one of the best PFs to play the game. He had all the weapons too. That’s just off the top of my head of offensive players who had a low post game as well as a jumper, rebounded and passed above average.

[Duke4life831]

As much as I hate Lebron, at a certain point even his three point shot became above average. I dont know what other weakness you could spell for him, even moreso than Jordan.

Its not just the 3pt shot though. Jordan's mid range game was elite. LeBron is a career 37% shooter from 10-16ft. He is a career 38% shooter from 16ft-3pt line. Jordan was elite in those areas.

Im not saying LeBron isn't a great all around offensive player. But ya I just dont think he checks as many boxes in the elite category as those 3 guys I mentioned is all.

No qualms with Jordans midrange being far better. But dont see how that overrides Lebron being a much better outside shooter in terms of “quantity” of relevant advantages.

Btw not saying Lebron is a better offensive player. Dont think he is. But in terms of number of skills, dont see how he’s eclipsed by MJ. I mean, if we’re talking levels of skills and not just existence of them, Lebron is also a better passer by a fair margin.

Both of these guys have things they are better at than the other, obviously.

To be clear, I dont think the gap is far between MJ and LeBron with this. If I were to expand this list he would probably be 4th or 5th on my list. So we're splitting hairs really with this.

In all honesty this is how I looked at it.

I gave the edge to MJ in low post and mid range footwork/moves
Also from a peer jump shot perspective, I think MJ's shot was more consistent. Ya Lebron has the better 3pt numbers, but I think that has far more to do with the era. Where offenses are designed to get guys to take 3pt shots. Again I just think MJ's jumper was better and more consistent. I think you put him in an era or offense where taking 3s and getting open 3pt shots are designed into the offense, I think we see MJ with better 3pt numbers. But again strictly going off of the idea that MJ's jumper overall was just a better weapon than LeBron's.

I also agree LeBron is the better passer. But I dont think MJ is a slouch in that department either. But ya I give LeBron the edge there. But ya I just give MJ the edge overall, again with the footwork, the low post/mid range footwork and skill set, the FT% advantage, the better jumper (in my opinion) advantage. That is why I personally gave him the edge.

Again my top 3 in some order off the top of my head would be MJ, Bird, Jokic. And off the top of my head, LeBron comes in 4th. So again we are just splitting hairs here.

[hauntedcomputer]

Guy has been good for a year and the start of another year and suddenly he's the greatest.

I'm not convinced yet that he's as great as Jack Sikma.

[Strepbacter]

He is no doubt the most complete offensive big ever. I dont see any debate with that.

I think it probably comes down between Jordan, Bird and Jokic. I can see the argument for any of those 3. Anyone else I think there are just too big of holes to point out. Those 3 pretty much just didnt check every box, they were/are pretty much elite in every aspect of the game on the offensive side.

Bird sucked at getting to the line and drawing fouls. He also had a weak handle and weak off the dribble game with some severe athletic limitations. Somebody like Bryant was at least as complete. It's ludicrous that he hasn't even been mentioned.

If this is the case, I mean if Bird couldn't get to the line and he had no off the dribble game. Why was he such a far more efficient scorer than Kobe? Its not like he was jacking up a ton of catch and shoot 3s back then and that is why he was so efficient.

Bird's career 2pt% is 51%. Kobe surpassed 50% shooting from 2, just 1 time in his career. How was Bird able to do that with his severe athletic limitations and weak off the dribble game?

Im actually a fan of Kobe's, I've become a far bigger fan of his as the years have gone by. But ya me saying he wasn't as good as Bird overall on the offensive end isn't some shot at Kobe. Definitely not one where the response should be some outlandishly bad takes on Bird to try and prop up Kobe.

Lmao

What the hell are you even talking about? Bird and Kobe had the exact same scoring efficiency for their careers

Kobe's career TS+: 104
Bird's career TS+: 104

Ya'll are still going off narratives and perceptions instead of looking at the data. It's hilarious. Bird wasn't even remotely close to being "far" more efficient as a scorer and 2pt% is completely useless as a measure of scoring efficiency.

And it's a literal fact that Bird struggled to get to the line and draw fouls, which is why his free throw rates were so consistently low. How is it outlandish to point out facts?

The rest of your post is nonsense. Nobody is even discussing who's better than who. The question is who's more complete.

"Outlandish statements" lmao. You just said Bird was a far more efficient scorer when they have the same scoring efficiency for their careers. You just used 2pt% as a measure of scoring efficiency. And you're the one coming up with ridiculous strawmen. Where the hell did I say Bryant was a better offensive player?

[picc]

Its not just the 3pt shot though. Jordan's mid range game was elite. LeBron is a career 37% shooter from 10-16ft. He is a career 38% shooter from 16ft-3pt line. Jordan was elite in those areas.

Im not saying LeBron isn't a great all around offensive player. But ya I just dont think he checks as many boxes in the elite category as those 3 guys I mentioned is all.

No qualms with Jordans midrange being far better. But dont see how that overrides Lebron being a much better outside shooter in terms of “quantity” of relevant advantages.

Btw not saying Lebron is a better offensive player. Dont think he is. But in terms of number of skills, dont see how he’s eclipsed by MJ. I mean, if we’re talking levels of skills and not just existence of them, Lebron is also a better passer by a fair margin.

Both of these guys have things they are better at than the other, obviously.

To be clear, I dont think the gap is far between MJ and LeBron with this. If I were to expand this list he would probably be 4th or 5th on my list. So we're splitting hairs really with this.

In all honesty this is how I looked at it.

I gave the edge to MJ in low post and mid range footwork/moves
Also from a peer jump shot perspective, I think MJ's shot was more consistent. Ya Lebron has the better 3pt numbers, but I think that has far more to do with the era. Where offenses are designed to get guys to take 3pt shots. Again I just think MJ's jumper was better and more consistent. I think you put him in an era or offense where taking 3s and getting open 3pt shots are designed into the offense, I think we see MJ with better 3pt numbers. But again strictly going off of the idea that MJ's jumper overall was just a better weapon than LeBron's.

I also agree LeBron is the better passer. But I dont think MJ is a slouch in that department either. But ya I give LeBron the edge there. But ya I just give MJ the edge overall, again with the footwork, the low post/mid range footwork and skill set, the FT% advantage, the better jumper (in my opinion) advantage. That is why I personally gave him the edge.

Again my top 3 in some order off the top of my head would be MJ, Bird, Jokic. And off the top of my head, LeBron comes in 4th. So again we are just splitting hairs here.

Hm. Actually dont have any problems with this take. Very fair.

I’ve also exhausted my desire to argue in favor of Lebron. But you make a really good case i cant take much issue with.